Giovanna wrote:

Does he love Anthy? Probably as much as is possible for him, but at the end of the day, it's obviously not enough to really want to save her from the swords. It's not even enough for him to make a token gesture of distress at her suffering. Why would he, he's got a pina colada to drink.

There. Happy satyr?

Very happy.  If I hadn't made you answer, we wouldn't have gotten that great line about Akio's selfishness.  "Well yeah I could help you, but... I mean... pina colada!"

I just saw the movie and I now do understand that everything IS pure symbolism.. I know understand what Akio is saying about the illusions cause by his large projector, granting the naive what he/she desired..

I know understand everything, thank you all for your help! n_n

Though, TV series speaking, I never understood what could be Touga and Saonji's desires.. Why are they still locked in their coffins, I wonder?

Throughout the movie, I laughed a lot, lol.. Moo!

@Mrs. Akio
Well, I don't really like Akio..
Got even to hate Utena a little when she slept with Akio knowing he has a fiancee,
And that fiancee's mom.. OMG.. What kind of mother was THAT!?

Well, the motives of Anthy, I guess is pretty unclear, though for now I do believe what I have stated above.. She was still in her coffin, sure in episode 37 she acted differently, there was a 'crack' like and she escaped a little of herself.

But, being back as the Rose Bride, she again has no will of her own and follows 'End of the Worlds' ' orders, like being the rose bride for duelist.. In short, she may still be at her coffin, but oh well... I'm not 100% sure either..

Damn, Shiori is a cruel ***** still, tsk..

Stephanie wrote:

Damn, Shiori is a cruel ***** still, tsk..

Somehow I knew this was coming. e_e

Uh... I disagree. So there. I could explain why I think that, but I probably shouldn't.

Ragnarok wrote:

To be fair, Shiori usually takes a while to grow on people.

I know. I really shouldn't have said anything.

Last edited by Razara (10-02-2007 02:43:13 PM)

Stephanie wrote:

Damn, Shiori is a cruel ***** still, tsk..

I think that Razara and I yap about Shiori even more than Giovanna yaps about Akio. I think we'll both stay away from this one for safety purposes. (We're such wild animals, right, Kozue? )

Anyway, I won't drag this on, but I'll just throw in that I agree, Shiori definately takes time. But, to be fair, most characters do. I'm not forcing this on you, because by no means did I like everyone my first couple watchings. I don't think anyone really did. But, with time, you come to realize that there really is no such thing as 'evil' in Ohtori. There are basic human instincts. There are misguided souls. There are people who are simply too naive to understand the way the world works. Mistakes are made, hearts are broken, tears are shed, but in the end there is no real villain, not even Akio.

But anyway, disliking Shiori is fine. She's not a very likable character, I'll be the first to admit. But hey, what can I say, I'm drawn to the bitches.

Jellineck wrote:

Shiori isn't the ultimate evil

's for you.

I'm once again relieved to find that I'm not the only person who feels strongly about this. Now I know that I'm not the only one who gets offended when it comes to the ridiculous amount of Shiori-bashing that exists in the world. One of these days I'm going to go through the internet and get a huge collection of quotes that are along the lines of, "I hate Shiori, she's such a bitch."

We could start a trio of Shiori fans.

dollface wrote:

Well, we cause too much trouble as it is. Sometimes, because I know Razara isn't reading my thoughts, I imagine that we're a secret gang. We wear purple bandanas and lockets, and we don't actually use firearms, but we use words, which are still painful! *cough* Aaaanyway...

Interestingly enough, I was originally going to add, "And soon we will reconquer the world!" at the end of that last post because I had a similar image in my mind. (I want a purple bandanna now...)

dollface wrote:

Put shortly, I agree with what you're saying. But unfortunately, in the world of anime, Shiori will be descriminated against because she is female. People have a mindset that evil is good only when done by an attractive male villain. Bishie, more often than not. Now, I love me some bishies, don't get me wrong. But I do think that Shiori gets more crap than she really should, but in the end, the opinion of another really isn't my business.

They won't discriminate her anymore if we conquer the world. :<

But, yeah, we do have a bad tendency to derail threads with talk about Shiori, and a bad tendency to offend people by being overly defensive. Maybe there should be a thread dedicated to yapping about Shiori, and ranting about how everyone hates her. Kind of like that one thread I made, except not dedicated to defending her.

Ragnarok wrote:

As has been mentioned, Akio assumes Utena failed to achieve revolution because Anthy had not yet left. Why did Anthy wait any amount of time to go? It's indicated to have been a few months since Utena disappeared from Ohtori. How long does it take to pack a suitcase?

I don't know!  That's an interesting question.  My best guess is that she was waiting to see if Utena would come back on her own.  That could have been embarrassing otherwise.  "Utena, I've been looking for you for two years!  I flew out of Tokyo the day after you left..."  "Oh.  I went to visit my auntie.  I got back a week after the whole revolution thing."

Razara, dollface, Jellineck, I think you guys need to start some kind of Shiori sisterhood -- a "Shiorority," if you will.  And you could have a whole thread dedicated to her worship, a description of your sacred rituals, and so on. 

Last edited by satyreyes (10-02-2007 08:30:27 PM)

Oh, whoops...


Anyway. I think the ending really reflects a power play in one of the most interesting love triangles in a show ever. Consider the dynamics.

Utena - Lesbian (or a very deep bond with lesbian subtext) love for a best friend, love for the supposedly princely brother of said best friend, love for former prince that Akio used to be.. Jealousy for both Akio and Anthy when she finds out her best friend and her prince are screwing. And, oh, they're siblings.

Akio - Lust for his sister/torture toy, lust for his sister's princely best friend. Jealous of both for their attentions to each other. Jealous of his own former self and of both their attachments to that past ideal.

Anthy - Love for best friend/prince figure, love for own brother, love for former prince that Akio used to be. Jealous of both Utena and Akio for their attentions towards each other. Plus the passive-aggressive malice that comes from being eternally tortured.

Interesting, interesting, interesting. Eventually a good portion of the show begins to revolve around a power struggle with these three characters. Anthy begans to feel betrayed by both Utena the girl and Utena the prince when the closest thing she has to a friend a) betrays their friendship by sleeping with her brother and b) betrays the princeliness (Diosness) she has grown to associate with Utena. This leads to disillusionment and resentment, and eventually exposing the secret between herself and her brother.

Which conversely leads to Utena feeling betrayed by Anthy, both as Anthy the friend and as Anthy the princess. Anthy the friend by sleeping with the man she loves, Anthy the princess by shattering the image of her as an innocent blameless princess in a troubled situation. Even more so, betrayed by Akio and her vision of him as the prince. I'm guessing that seeing a half-naked Akio stared at his splayed nude sister is bound to shatter any illusions about his moral nature.

It is that, I believe, that primarily leads Utena to make the ultimate decision of Anthy over Akio. Not so much the attempted suicide scene, but the part where Utena walks in on the ugly (and disturbingly sexy) truth. And I am fully estimating by Anthy's gaze that she had somehow planned this was going to happen. After all, it's kind of odd that Utena would suddenly wake up and intrude on them where she had never bothered personally.

That moment is where Utena is forced to perceive that Anthy is nowhere near innocent, a stark contrast from her usual sweet appearance and demeanor. Then she must try to realize Anthy as a human being, rather than a reflection of her own ideals. After all, if Anthy is not really a princess, then is she truly a prince? Also, in a rather brilliant two-birds-with-one-stone move, any illusions about Akio's complete corruptions are rudely removed.

Goddammit, I love this series and its endless interpretations. I also loved that I just typed all that to show that I'm capable of getting off the topic of Shiori. That said, Shiorority is the best idea in the history of human existence. And yes, goats are cute.

You’ve had the good answers, now for the slightly oversimplified and glib one:

Akio:  It hasn't been that long since then, but everybody's forgotten about her completely.
Akio:  She didn't cause a Revolution after all.
Akio:  Now that she's gone, she was just a dropout to this world.
Akio:  I've got to rebuild the Code of the Rose Signet from scratch.
Akio:  I'm counting on you, Anthy.
Anthy:  You don't know what happened, do you?
Akio:  What?
Anthy:  It's alright now. Please go on playing make-believe "Prince" in this comfortable little coffin forever.
Anthy:  But I must go.
Akio:  Go? To where?
Anthy:  That person hasn't vanished. She's merely left your world.
Akio:  What're you talking about?
Akio:  W-wait a minute! Anthy!
Akio:  Anthy!!
Anthy:  Farewell.
Anthy:  Now it's my turn to go to you.
Anthy:  No matter where you are, I'll find you for sure.
Anthy:  Wait for me, Utena.
Utena:  Hey, if anything is troubling you, tell me about it.
Utena:  I want to be your friend.
Utena:  And someday, with me...
Anthy:  Someday, with you?
text:  "Someday, Shine With Me"

I thought this was fairly self explanatory, but maybe that’s just a by-product of bashing my brains out against Evangelion 25 and 26?

Our little Utena’s all growed up, while Akio is still sitting in his playpen crying “Dance Puppets! Dance!”

Maarika wrote:

I don't think it is yuri. :/ There was very little yuri content in the series. Unless you count all the subtext.

The yuri community lives on subtext. After all we don’t get the pages and pages of published man-sex that the yaoi fans have.

If you want some nice, compact (and not at all fangirlish) insight into Akio Stephanie then have a quick look here

2.) Now, this is what I really want to know, why do you guys keep insisting Utena is still alive? What is it that make you guys believe? Of course, I want her alive too (I felt numb when I found out she died in my first reaction and quickly went here w/o thinking or wasting a second to make me be satisfied). I just don't see any proof she could've been alive in that situation, though Anthy and Akio are both weirdly alive after the incident either..

Anthy:  It's alright now. Please go on playing make-believe "Prince" in this comfortable little coffin forever.
Anthy:  But I must go.
Akio:  Go? To where?
Anthy:  That person hasn't vanished. She's merely left your world.
Akio:  What're you talking about?
Akio:  W-wait a minute! Anthy!

Akio’s world is a small and childish place, a place where he can be king and prince and god, master of all he surveys. He remains unchanged, playing at being a prince in his coffin. She leaves the world to live, and he belongs dead… I’m sure I was trying to explain this…

Stephanie wrote:

I see, of course, it is just an illusion afterall.. But Utena left without saying goodbye to Anthy..

“Someday, Shine with me” she may have left without saying goodbye, but it looks to me that she left saying “hurry up”

The idea of people needing to grow up as part of leaving Ohtori, (or Revolutionising the world or what ever you feel like calling it) seems to be growing up. I say this because this is the most obvious thing that Akio failed to do. Look at the film, when Juri, Miki and Saionji show up to help, They say something along the lines of “Someday we’ll join you/catch up with you” (I don’t have my DVD with me and I can’t find a transcript ) which implies a growth process… to me at least.

Stephanie wrote:

@Mrs. Akio
Well, I don't really like Akio..

He’s too hot to hate completely … or something. …Just don’t mention Makio

Stephanie wrote:

Got even to hate Utena a little when she slept with Akio knowing he has a fiancee,
And that fiancee's mom.. OMG.. What kind of mother was THAT!?

What indeed?

Ragnarok wrote:

As has been mentioned, Akio assumes Utena failed to achieve revolution because Anthy had not yet left. Why did Anthy wait any amount of time to go? It's indicated to have been a few months since Utena disappeared from Ohtori. How long does it take to pack a suitcase?

Just to really fuck with his head? He’s been patting himself on the back for months…
“I am so smart I am so smart s-m-r-t!”
“Oh Brother Dearest…”

I’m gonna go with “Growth” again, it takes time to grow up… and longer to grow up proper;y…or something.

Edit: Damn it I was supposed to be making sense!

satyreyes wrote:

My first thought, after I internalized what a very good idea this was, was: "I wonder why Ikuhara didn't put the intro song at the end!"  Then I realized he did!  Rose Release, the track that plays over Anthy walking away in the closing credits of the last episode, is a transparent remix of Rinbu Revolution.  That's

A lot of anime do that. Take Evangelion, the last three minutes are backed by two tracks, “This heady feeling of freedom” and “Good, or don’t be” Both of which are instrumental remixes of The Cruel Angel’s Thesis”. The film version of Rinbu Revolution was a similar thing. And, most important for Utena, it give the series feeling of being circular. The beginning and the end are the same, though slightly different.

Last edited by Kashira (10-03-2007 06:21:17 AM)

Stephanie wrote:

I was just expressing my opinion as an individual.. Of course we all have different likes..

Oh no, we're not saying that you can't feel this way. As I mention, Shiori is not the most likable character, and I certainly don't expect everyone to like her the way I do. And on my last Shiori-related note, I've found my new religion!

Good afternoon Sir, Ma'am. I am part of the sisterhood of Shiori, and I have come to your door to spread the good news of our Lord! With just a moment of your time, you too can be on the path to miracles!

...Aaaaanyway, I love Mrs. Ohtori because I feel like she's a good example of what it means to be "adult" in SKU. Many characters long for maturity, but I feel like Mrs. Ohtori represents what that kind of responsibility can turn you into. It is much easier to stay naive, but at the same time, does maturing truly give you understanding? It's also a good representation of Akio's power. She is by no means a child, easily persuaded by promises, and yet she is still unable to truly confront Akio about his treament of Kanae. She willingly lets it slip her mind. Akio still has her under his thumb, just like everyone else. But there's a difference. She does call him her prince, but she doesn't see him quite the way Utena does. She isn't dreaming that he loves her, or can save her from her world. She accepts what she is given, because sexual desire is not enough to keep her from standing on her own. And in the world of SKU, I believe that is as close to adult as you can get.

(Not to say that characters like Akio or Mikage or Tokiko aren't 'adult', because they certainly are. But the definition of adulthood varies from person to person, and I really like the form that Mrs. Ohtori takes.)

dollface wrote:

Oh no, we're not saying that you can't feel this way. As I mention, Shiori is not the most likable character, and I certainly don't expect everyone to like her the way I do. And on my last Shiori-related note, I've found my new religion!

I'd just like to note that I don't hate Shiori, but I dislike her for the simple reason that she pushes all my "straight girl who gets a kick out of having a woman in unrequited love for her because it's a constant ego-boo no matter what the boys say" and "straight girl who likes to play with the affections of a closeted lesbian because it gives her a power rush" buttons.

Not that I met girls like that.  Or had my affections toyed with.  Or gotten horrifically dumped when I became inconvenient.  Of course not.  *cough*