This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top07-13-2014 12:18:27 PM

Aninha
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 07-12-2014
Posts: 40

Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

She recently wrote a bunch of reviews with interpretation for the show and the movie, as well as wrap ups, I think you might enjoy them:

http://ladyloveandjustice.tumblr.com/ta … na+reviews

Tell me what you think please! emot-smile

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#2 | Back to Top07-13-2014 02:28:18 PM

cypsiman2
Miki Molester
Registered: 06-02-2014
Posts: 34

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

Did you get her permission before posting a link to her stuff?

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#3 | Back to Top07-13-2014 02:33:36 PM

Aninha
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 07-12-2014
Posts: 40

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

Good point! I sent her a message, if she says no, I'll delete it.

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#4 | Back to Top07-13-2014 03:09:54 PM

Snow
Troublesome Insect
From: under the dogstar sail
Registered: 09-30-2013
Posts: 643

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

Did you get her permission before posting a link to her stuff?

You have to ask permission for posting links? I mean, if she pasted the article here, I'd get it, but the link directs to the original source emot-confused

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#5 | Back to Top07-13-2014 04:09:49 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

Snow wrote:

Did you get her permission before posting a link to her stuff?

You have to ask permission for posting links? I mean, if she pasted the article here, I'd get it, but the link directs to the original source emot-confused

It's standard operating procedure on the internet to share with other users content that may be of interest to them. It's called 'hotlinking,' and I fail to see why it would be a problem to do this on IRG, given it's the basis of distribution of information on the internet.

So...as far as I'm concerned, no, there's no call for explicit permission to post the link. It'd be different if it was the full content of the article and not attributed to the original writer as you say. Is it really a thing now to ask if you can share someone's publicly posted content with other people in public? emot-confused


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#6 | Back to Top07-13-2014 05:40:54 PM

QueenOfJebri
Miki Molester
From: In Wonderland, drinking tea
Registered: 12-16-2013
Posts: 38

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

Giovanna wrote:

Is it really a thing now to ask if you can share someone's publicly posted content with other people in public? emot-confused

Yes. Some people--especially various tumblr users--get VERY bent out of shape if you do, causing some of the rest of us to use caution. I think it's silly, but after all the drama that has gone on in Tumblr's Utena fandom over equally stupid crap...


The absolute destiny... of hot pockets.

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#7 | Back to Top07-13-2014 07:06:43 PM

Jacrad
Ballgoer
Registered: 03-25-2014
Posts: 145

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

I think I can understand it to a small degree? People on Tumblr probably enjoy getting recognized on Tumblr, as opposed to outside sites, since reblogging is a two way street. They spread your content and you can follow it back and see what the response is, including if it's derogatory. It seems like a vanity thing to me. But really, its free advertisement as long as credit is given.

I will say however, unless it becomes a rule here, I would be willing to post links to Tumblr posts without permission. If the author wants to cause drama let them? Tumblr may be used for private purposes but it is still a public place. Unless they make their Tumblr private there is no reason to get in a tizzy.

QueenOfJebri wrote:

I didn't know you were on this forum~! I've liked a lot of your responses to some of the Revolutionary Confessions posts.

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#8 | Back to Top07-13-2014 07:12:22 PM

Aninha
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 07-12-2014
Posts: 40

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

Well, as long as no one harasses her, which doesn't look like something people here'd do, I guess it's fine, the reviews were also shared elsewhere, like at mark watches.

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#9 | Back to Top07-13-2014 08:43:39 PM

Kita-Ysabell
Covert Diarist
Registered: 11-18-2012
Posts: 829
Website

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

So here is a thread for further discussion of the ethics of linking content.

As far as the review itself…  I tried reading it.  I got halfway through the first episode, and it doesn't really hold up in terms of academic rigor or well-done analysis for me.  Like, right off the bat, we get this sentence: "It’s very weird because of its allegorical and symbolic nature, but ultimately very rewarding."  That… I get what's trying to be said, but that's… that's not a very clear way to go about saying it.  The language is pretty content-poor.  It rather reminds me of Undergraduate Grading Bingo.

Why is there a but in that sentence?  How are the two clauses contrasted, and what does that contrast tell the reader?  What the hell does "weird" mean in this context?  Aren't "allegorical" and "symbolic" pretty much synonymous here, so isn't "allegorical and symbolic" kind of redundant?  Personally, I would have written it, "While the surrealist nature of the show is a barrier to easy comprehension, the layered symbolism renders itself readily to a wide array of deeper analysis."  Or, if I didn't want to sound like a pompous douche, "While the imagery of the show is difficult to understand, if you take the time, the understanding is worth it."

It's very much an exhaustive play-by-play of the action, rather than picking out significant events and delving into them, and it seems to take "feminism" in… a place that it makes me a bit sad to see feminism taken.  It's very… judgey.  Like, "It’s also a real lapse in judgement not to inform her friend Wakaba that the guy she’s crushin’ on is a jerk who abuses his girlfriend."  I dunno, somehow I doubt that "Oh, that guy you don't even have the confidence to actually tell me you like is a jerk, you should stop liking him" is going to get very far with anyone, let alone Wakaba.

It's great to see so much enthusiasm for Utena springing up, but I think I'll give this one a miss.

Moral of the story: unless Sebastian Stan is going to be ripping doors off of armored cars, anyone telling me I'll probably like something is likely to be wrong, because I'm a contrarian like that.


"Et in Arcadio ego..."

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#10 | Back to Top07-14-2014 12:20:06 AM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

Well, she lost me at the yet another screaming half arsed and insipid and frankly brainless screaming attack on Chiho Saito. emot-rolleyes Evolution, progression and commercialism, ever heard of it?

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#11 | Back to Top07-14-2014 02:57:16 AM

MikoGalatea
Rose Bride
From: England, UK
Registered: 02-25-2012
Posts: 115
Website

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

It's very… judgey.  Like, "It’s also a real lapse in judgement not to inform her friend Wakaba that the guy she’s crushin’ on is a jerk who abuses his girlfriend."  I dunno, somehow I doubt that "Oh, that guy you don't even have the confidence to actually tell me you like is a jerk, you should stop liking him" is going to get very far with anyone, let alone Wakaba.

Am I the only person who thinks Wakaba may well have been aware of the way Saionji treated Anthy, but chose to conveniently overlook it because a) she put Saionji on a big pedestal and b) she had a bad case of internalised misogyny? After all, if I recall the scene correctly, she did see Anthy nursing a bruised cheek, even if she didn't see the actual slap take place.

I do love Wakaba, but last I checked, even she isn't exempt from the rule that nobody in SKU is totally innocent.

As for ladyloveandjustice's reviews themselves, I've seen some of them around on Mark Watches. I think she makes some interesting points, but in short, I agree with her on some things and greatly disagree with her on others (especially her anti-Saito ranting, even moreso because it comes paired with the mentality that Ikuhara can do no wrong; I find her view on Tatsuya to be overly harsh, too).

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#12 | Back to Top07-14-2014 03:12:34 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

The great firewall won't let me see past the first page of her tumblr. I'm curious about her analyses, in theory, but also suspect I might be happier not being able to see them.

And, yeah, Wakaba totally knows how Saionji treated Anthy, in a broad sense, if not in total specifics.

She's a kid. She's as willingly self-blinding as Juri, Saio, or Shiori are. She sees her relationship with him through kid's eyes, and she sees his relationship with Anthy through a similarly immature perspective. That plus optimism.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#13 | Back to Top07-14-2014 03:41:02 AM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

One day I'm going to write that bloody essay about Chiho Saito and her part in BeBapas. Mind you, I'll probably get bored and abandon it like all of the others I started.

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#14 | Back to Top07-14-2014 03:43:57 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

crystalwren wrote:

One day I'm going to write that bloody essay about Chiho Saito and her part in BeBapas. Mind you, I'll probably get bored and abandon it like all of the others I started.

I'm not really sure why she gets so much hate. The Utena manga might be her weakest comic I've ever read, but even so, her contributions to the entirety of Utena, manga, TV, movie, etc is immense.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#15 | Back to Top07-14-2014 04:04:40 AM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

crystalwren wrote:

One day I'm going to write that bloody essay about Chiho Saito and her part in BeBapas. Mind you, I'll probably get bored and abandon it like all of the others I started.

I'm not really sure why she gets so much hate. The Utena manga might be her weakest comic I've ever read, but even so, her contributions to the entirety of Utena, manga, TV, movie, etc is immense.

Honestly? I can't help but feel that a significant part of it is that she is a she. The vast majority of the hate that reigns down on her comes from other people of the female persuasion, and women are vicious to each other. Seriously, it's why I prefer to work with people who have Y chromosomes.

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#16 | Back to Top07-14-2014 04:24:17 AM

Snow
Troublesome Insect
From: under the dogstar sail
Registered: 09-30-2013
Posts: 643

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

Does all the hate for Saito stem solely from her veto on openly stating the nature of AxU relationship in the series, or are there other reasons too?

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#17 | Back to Top07-14-2014 04:34:04 AM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

Snow wrote:

Does all the hate for Saito stem solely from her veto on openly stating the nature of AxU relationship in the series, or are there other reasons too?

From best I can tell, there's an ongoing belief that her contribution is solely confined to the manga, and that the manga in question is thin on plot. (Accurate in the latter, wildly inaccurate in the former.) Other than that, I don't believe so.

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#18 | Back to Top07-14-2014 06:37:24 AM

Aninha
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 07-12-2014
Posts: 40

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

If I had to guess the problems people have with Saito, I'd bet on 1) the belief all she did was the manga (one I shared before coming here), and 2) Her denying Anthy and Utena's romantic love.

As for the academic language, well, the review doesn't use it because the intended audience are people who are watching the episodes for the first time and want to read something on them. Why post it here then? I just thought they might be interesting to some of you too. emot-keke

@crystalwren: not everyone with y chromosomes is a guy.

Edit: she answered my ask for permission, she said "sure!", so yep, it's fine.

Last edited by Aninha (07-14-2014 06:48:26 AM)

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#19 | Back to Top07-14-2014 08:10:15 AM

QueenOfJebri
Miki Molester
From: In Wonderland, drinking tea
Registered: 12-16-2013
Posts: 38

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

For the sake of being on topic: the analysis is pretty hit or miss for me, to be honest. I like some of the points she makes, but I think she's WAY off in others. My opinion may be tinted a little due to her responses to people on other topics (where has she been unreasonable and mean), though...

Jacrad wrote:

QueenOfJebri wrote:

I didn't know you were on this forum~! I've liked a lot of your responses to some of the Revolutionary Confessions posts.

Hello there! I'm glad you've enjoyed my confession responses. I keep finding out that more and more Utena fans have checked in on my responses and thoughts on things on tumblr, and that just makes me really happy! (or at the very least, that i'm not being COMPLETELY irrational with my thoughts. emot-tongue)


The absolute destiny... of hot pockets.

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#20 | Back to Top07-14-2014 09:01:24 AM

Aninha
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 07-12-2014
Posts: 40

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

@QueenofJebri: what are some of the ways you disagree with her?

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#21 | Back to Top07-14-2014 09:11:34 AM

QueenOfJebri
Miki Molester
From: In Wonderland, drinking tea
Registered: 12-16-2013
Posts: 38

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

The major ones I have were already covered by MikoGalatea.


The absolute destiny... of hot pockets.

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#22 | Back to Top07-14-2014 10:15:44 AM

SeizonSenryaku
Architectonitechnician
From: Italy
Registered: 11-17-2011
Posts: 64

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

So here is a thread for further discussion of the ethics of linking content.

As far as the review itself…  I tried reading it.  I got halfway through the first episode, and it doesn't really hold up in terms of academic rigor or well-done analysis for me.  Like, right off the bat, we get this sentence: "It’s very weird because of its allegorical and symbolic nature, but ultimately very rewarding."  That… I get what's trying to be said, but that's… that's not a very clear way to go about saying it.  The language is pretty content-poor.  It rather reminds me of Undergraduate Grading Bingo.

Why is there a but in that sentence?  How are the two clauses contrasted, and what does that contrast tell the reader?  What the hell does "weird" mean in this context?  Aren't "allegorical" and "symbolic" pretty much synonymous here, so isn't "allegorical and symbolic" kind of redundant?  Personally, I would have written it, "While the surrealist nature of the show is a barrier to easy comprehension, the layered symbolism renders itself readily to a wide array of deeper analysis."  Or, if I didn't want to sound like a pompous douche, "While the imagery of the show is difficult to understand, if you take the time, the understanding is worth it."

It's very much an exhaustive play-by-play of the action, rather than picking out significant events and delving into them, and it seems to take "feminism" in… a place that it makes me a bit sad to see feminism taken.  It's very… judgey.  Like, "It’s also a real lapse in judgement not to inform her friend Wakaba that the guy she’s crushin’ on is a jerk who abuses his girlfriend."  I dunno, somehow I doubt that "Oh, that guy you don't even have the confidence to actually tell me you like is a jerk, you should stop liking him" is going to get very far with anyone, let alone Wakaba.

It's great to see so much enthusiasm for Utena springing up, but I think I'll give this one a miss.

Moral of the story: unless Sebastian Stan is going to be ripping doors off of armored cars, anyone telling me I'll probably like something is likely to be wrong, because I'm a contrarian like that.

Totally agree on this.

Also, (not only you, I mean all of you) read this post: It's like she's screaming (I HATE MEN, THE WORLD SHOULD BE ONLY-GIRLS. SCREW YOU, DISGUSTING MEN!) -______-'
http://ladyloveandjustice.tumblr.com/ta … -is-a-dork

Last edited by SeizonSenryaku (07-14-2014 06:52:23 PM)

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#23 | Back to Top07-14-2014 12:02:21 PM

QueenOfJebri
Miki Molester
From: In Wonderland, drinking tea
Registered: 12-16-2013
Posts: 38

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

SeizonSenryaku wrote:

Also, (not only you, I mean all of you) read this post: It's like she's screaming (I HATE MEN, THE WORLD SHOULD BE ONLY-GIRLS. SCREW YOU, DISGUSTING MEN!) -______-'
http://ladyloveandjustice.tumblr.com/ta … -is-a-dork

Eh, I read that stuff as more "male characters are okay as long as they're completely useless eyecandy because that's what female characters are in a lot of stories, and role reversal is what we need in fiction to make it more girl-positive." I personally disagree with that line of thinking, but whatever.


The absolute destiny... of hot pockets.

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#24 | Back to Top07-14-2014 12:21:48 PM

Aninha
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 07-12-2014
Posts: 40

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

I think the link to her tuxedo mask tag is misleading, she often makes posts about all sorts of "dork" characters, she uses it more in an endearing way, like "cute in a nerdy way".

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#25 | Back to Top07-14-2014 02:34:23 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Ep by ep analysis from a feminist perspective by ladyloveandjustice

QueenOfJebri wrote:

SeizonSenryaku wrote:

Also, (not only you, I mean all of you) read this post: It's like she's screaming (I HATE MEN, THE WORLD SHOULD BE ONLY-GIRLS. SCREW YOU, DISGUSTING MEN!) -______-'
http://ladyloveandjustice.tumblr.com/ta … -is-a-dork

Eh, I read that stuff as more "male characters are okay as long as they're completely useless eyecandy because that's what female characters are in a lot of stories, and role reversal is what we need in fiction to make it more girl-positive." I personally disagree with that line of thinking, but whatever.

Is it just that I'm bad at Tumblr, or does that link just go to a set of affectionate posts about Tuxedo Kamen fail, with no particular implications for whether men are disgusting?  emot-confused

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