This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top05-29-2016 03:07:30 AM

Amasis
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 05-23-2016
Posts: 40

Seitokai as Girishagami, and Akio's Abuse of Egyptian Archetypes

(rendaku in title because it seems more euphonous that way)

AN: Someday I'll write an essay-piece that lays out and argues my Akio-Osiris & Anthy-Isis connection. Today is not that day. This is a shitpost that takes that as a given.
Addendum: To clarify,
this is essentially making connections I doubt were intended. I do think that Akio-Osiris & Anthy-Isis is "canon" or rather a genuine influence.

Someone on /a/ made a shitpost thread asking why Nanami had to turn into a cow.

Obviously, I said, it's because the cow is the animal of Hera, the jealous sister-wife of Zeus the philandering king; thus turning into a cow symbolizes her desire to have onii-sama take her.

Of course now I've also said Touga is Zeus. What more arbitrary connections can we make for the rest of the seitokai?

Ruka is Hades, being dead and only rarely appearing on Olympus.

To complete the three-tall-brothers set, Poseidon is the aoi-haired Saionji, overshadowed by Zeus. (Saionji's last-name-refered-ness is pretty amusing. on the dub of the movie, the credits list everyone in western name order except Saionji. they literally thought that was his given name)

Juri is is clearly either Athena, because Artemis was neither martial nor a model.

And Miki is Apollo, and obviously Kozue Artemis. Except one attribute is swapped between the two pairs of twins. Though Miki is still the civilized, musical one, and Kozue the wild one, Miki now becomes the virginal, while Kozue takes and accelerates Apollo's proscimuity. Perhaps this is due to the difference between baptized Europe (& Japan?) against pagan Greece in notions of sex and civilizedness.

And of course they're all being played by the far more powerful and ancient gods of the Egyptians. That's another interpretation of the "race question"- the Greeks believed they derived their religion from the Egyptians on account of the latter's antiquity [though they really did so from their own ancestors and the Sumerians-Semites], just as the Japanese derived Buddhism from the Indians. Or something like that.

Now let's return to Touga, because there's something interesting there. The classical comparison is Zeus to Ammon-Ra. This is of course completely wrong. Zeus is just Ba'al, and Ba'al is Seth.

Seth, the brother of Osiris and Isis! Seth, the murderer of Osiris! Clearly that makes no sense!

But we should remember that Seth is a complex figure. He originated as a royal totem of one proto-Egyptian people or another, grew into a rivalry with another such royal totem, Horus; and both were later inserted into the Osiris-Isis mythos. (Especially once they were replaced as the rival gods of kingship by Ra. Ra, I suspect, was a kind-of-artifical, neutral Sun-god brought in to remove the Fourth Dynasty above the corncerns of the warring Horus and Seth cults. Totalitarian waifu god~ Remember, his name is literally just "Sun". Cf. Sol Invictus, or, hilariously, Ra's own replacement, Aten.) Seth was the patron of several eccentric pharaohs, but ultimately the cult of Horus won out, and Seth became the Egyptian Satan.

But Seth has red hair.

Moreover, Seth is the rival of the rightful prince Horus for the throne of the dead god Osiris.

They fought countless times over an eighty-year war. Countless times.

Once Seth even attempted to rape Horus, but failed. Instead, Seth himself was humiliated.

(And they later reconciled.)

Touga plays the role of Seth for Akio, according to his plan, masking the fact that Osiris, though dead and dethroned, is still very active and not at all interested in being succeeded and new-Mandate-of-Heaven'd, but is instead is using Horus for his own purposes. And also kind of is a Seth (esp. as god of foreigners) himself. And the Isis that helps Horus is very much in on it.

(Though unlike the perpetually unfulfilled Seth of later Horus-propaganda, though, Touga does manage to otherwise get laid.)

Last edited by Amasis (05-29-2016 12:15:36 PM)

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#2 | Back to Top05-29-2016 06:09:36 AM

DragonOfThePond
Wakaba Wrangler
From: Serbia
Registered: 02-21-2016
Posts: 14

Re: Seitokai as Girishagami, and Akio's Abuse of Egyptian Archetypes

So,if Juri is Athena,Shiori should be Arachne.
Another thing-I think that Ruka is also connected to Hephaestus,since Hephaestus was the god of blacksmiths and crafts.His female equivalent is of course,Athena,who he tried to rape at one occasion..


~The real is but a dream...

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#3 | Back to Top05-29-2016 10:06:54 AM

pesimistamente
Anthy Assailer
From: Barcelona [former epi]
Registered: 01-12-2016
Posts: 70

Re: Seitokai as Girishagami, and Akio's Abuse of Egyptian Archetypes

I am in love with all your posts etc-love etc-love etc-love just keep them coming poptart

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#4 | Back to Top05-29-2016 10:41:02 AM

ShiningSanctum1
Touga Topper
Registered: 11-23-2012
Posts: 57

Re: Seitokai as Girishagami, and Akio's Abuse of Egyptian Archetypes

I actually think that Mikage is Hades. I agree with someone else that Ruka might be Hephaestus. Also there's a song called "Shi no Aphrodite." Who is the Aphrodite?


Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why it is called the present.

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#5 | Back to Top05-29-2016 11:05:28 AM

pesimistamente
Anthy Assailer
From: Barcelona [former epi]
Registered: 01-12-2016
Posts: 70

Re: Seitokai as Girishagami, and Akio's Abuse of Egyptian Archetypes

ShiningSanctum1 wrote:

I actually think that Mikage is Hades.

Yes,, this makes sense to me too. All the things surrounding the imagery of the black rose saga seems to point to death itself, more than Ruka's illness.

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#6 | Back to Top05-29-2016 11:41:54 AM

DragonOfThePond
Wakaba Wrangler
From: Serbia
Registered: 02-21-2016
Posts: 14

Re: Seitokai as Girishagami, and Akio's Abuse of Egyptian Archetypes

ShiningSanctum1 wrote:

I actually think that Mikage is Hades. I agree with someone else that Ruka might be Hephaestus. Also there's a song called "Shi no Aphrodite." Who is the Aphrodite?

Juri could be Aphrodite.Aphrodite is the goddess of beauty,love,desire,and the wife of Hephaestus.She is known for having a lot of other love interests,and she is known for cheating on her husband(In the anime she likes Shiori,while in the manga she likes Touga).Her Roman counterpart is Venus,being the idol of beauty.Also,"Shi no Aphrodite" is one of the songs connected to Juri.


~The real is but a dream...

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#7 | Back to Top05-29-2016 12:21:44 PM

Amasis
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 05-23-2016
Posts: 40

Re: Seitokai as Girishagami, and Akio's Abuse of Egyptian Archetypes

pesimistamente wrote:

I am in love with all your posts etc-love etc-love etc-love just keep them coming poptart

Danke schön.

ShiningSanctum1 wrote:

I actually think that Mikage is Hades.

...ja that would would make a lot more sense for any number of reasons.
Clearly then we liken Mamiya to Persephone and Tokiko to Demeter.

ShiningSanctum1 wrote:

Also there's a song called "Shi no Aphrodite." Who is the Aphrodite?

I'm pretty sure the shi there is "death", making it- with my extremely limited grammatical knowledge- "deadly Aphrodite". Aphrodite can just mean "love", metonymically...

As for Ruka being Hephæstus, I can't see much there beyond the connection to Juri- which is, admittedly, all that really gets explored with him. But Ruka isn't undesirable as Hephæstus is (except perhaps to Juri?) and isn't an armorer (except as much as he armors Juri against Utena and Shiori). I suppose those're more evidence there than objection, but I still doubt it. Maybe he's Poseidon, with his blue hair and rivalry with Athena? Could that make Shiori Medusa? I don't think that's too apt either.

Again, I don't actually think there was some plan to align the duelists with Greek gods, rather that these were either somehow unconscious or arbitrary or that I'm just seeing patterns.

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#8 | Back to Top05-29-2016 12:58:06 PM

DragonOfThePond
Wakaba Wrangler
From: Serbia
Registered: 02-21-2016
Posts: 14

Re: Seitokai as Girishagami, and Akio's Abuse of Egyptian Archetypes

Amasis wrote:

.

Again, I don't actually think there was some plan to align the duelists with Greek gods, rather that these were either somehow unconscious or arbitrary or that I'm just seeing patterns.

Well,we all know that the Greek and Roman culture are basically the foundation of our current society,so it's not surprising that we see antic themes in art.And we all know that Ikuhara made all his anime in a way that every person watching it has their own interpretation...


~The real is but a dream...

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#9 | Back to Top05-31-2016 11:33:12 AM

ShiningSanctum1
Touga Topper
Registered: 11-23-2012
Posts: 57

Re: Seitokai as Girishagami, and Akio's Abuse of Egyptian Archetypes

Amasis wrote:

pesimistamente wrote:

I am in love with all your posts etc-love etc-love etc-love just keep them coming poptart

Danke schön.

ShiningSanctum1 wrote:

I actually think that Mikage is Hades.

...ja that would would make a lot more sense for any number of reasons.
Clearly then we liken Mamiya to Persephone and Tokiko to Demeter.

ShiningSanctum1 wrote:

Also there's a song called "Shi no Aphrodite." Who is the Aphrodite?

I'm pretty sure the shi there is "death", making it- with my extremely limited grammatical knowledge- "deadly Aphrodite". Aphrodite can just mean "love", metonymically...

As for Ruka being Hephæstus, I can't see much there beyond the connection to Juri- which is, admittedly, all that really gets explored with him. But Ruka isn't undesirable as Hephæstus is (except perhaps to Juri?) and isn't an armorer (except as much as he armors Juri against Utena and Shiori). I suppose those're more evidence there than objection, but I still doubt it. Maybe he's Poseidon, with his blue hair and rivalry with Athena? Could that make Shiori Medusa? I don't think that's too apt either.

Again, I don't actually think there was some plan to align the duelists with Greek gods, rather that these were either somehow unconscious or arbitrary or that I'm just seeing patterns.

Yeah I didn't really see the Greek God thing in the series, but everyone just seemed to be in love with the wrong person or going after the wrong kind of goal, hence the "death of love"? Also I was asking since that song played kinda frequently in Juri's episodes. And I think the blue hair was there to appear similar to Miki. I think someone in one of the really old color symbolism thread mentioned that those with complimentary hair colors share a strong relationship. Also the color blue means something that looks pure and beautiful but something very artificial at the same time. Also he used to be a member of the council before he left, so he must represent Indigo/Dark blue.


Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why it is called the present.

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