Another way of looking at the movie is that it's a parody of the fanbase and its reactions to the series. All the characters have become over-the-top caricatures of themselves, the shipping is taken to extremes (even with Juri and Miki), and we get a 'happy' ending that resolves nothing.

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Word.  Artsy visuals and scores aside, the movie is definitely wish-fulfillment taken to fangirl-fic extremes.

Yup. All that Scenery Porn.

Rosesareawesome101 wrote:

Reviving the thread

Another problem that this movie has it make certain plot point more confusing then they are currently are via not including essential characters and Arc out of it continuity making it feel underdeveloped compared to the tv show.

The biggest one is the fact that Dios does't really exist in this continuity opens up a huge plot hole if you watch the show, it also shows how underdeveloped Utena's character is in this version, the fact that Touga is Utena's boyfriend in this version adds to the confusion.

My mom never finished the TV show, but she had no problem with things like Dios not existing, or feeling Utena was underdeveloped. (She even made the leap to Miki's sister being a car and I swear they don't actually say her name in the subtitles.)

I've seen the TV show and I still don't think movie-Utena is underdeveloped. We're less familiar with her ins and outs, yes, but that's because there's much less time. The only reason I know a lot about Norm Peterson or Diane Chambers is because Cheers ran forever. I know less ins and outs of Travis Bickle or Ralphie Parker from A Christmas Story, but they're not poorly developed characters in any way, we just know less little things because we're spending less time with them.

The contradictions between movie and TV only confuse if you're treating them as direct continuations. We've all seen movies that were remakes of TV shows and most of them don't match identically. We've all seen movies that are remakes of other movies that aren't shot for shot the same. The manga and the show ran concurrent and rarely matched up.

And, again, if Fire Walk With Me really was a strong influence, it doesn't line up with the show it followed perfectly, either, with some roles recast, many changed to mere cameos, entire arcs and sets of people ignored, because they weren't conducive to the movie that was being made, and already had their time and breadth to shine in the TV show.

It's a fast movie. There's a helluva lot going on. But they were smart, in my opinion, to keep what worked for the movie and ignore things, like the Black Rose Arc, that would've muddled the flow and symbolism as it was being set up for this piece, this movie. The Nanami Cow scene, that wrong video, has a huge amount of metaphoric and symbolic value, but it's also just weird and goofy enough to lull us right before the very serious correct tape is played. It's like everyone laughing and smiling just before someone gets shot or stabbed twenty-three times. We're being played.

We're being played when Anthy lifts that ax. We're being played when the rubber ducky reappears. We're being played throughout that whole movie, in these very careful ways that feel careless or haphazard. In TV work, the screenwriter tends to embed the symbolism more quietly, and to play up genre expectations instead, but here (and in FLCL to a degree) Yoji Enokido just forewent expectational comfort and let the symbolism stand out in its naked glory, let the emotions right to the fore in the most melodramatic ways, and you either go along for the ride or you don't. Miki is there just long enough to serve his symbolic purposes, to emote is emotional echoes to the primary happenings with Utena and Anthy. Once we have his relationship to his sister and to Juri, we've pretty much covered the Miki ground in the movie, all that's left is for him to see Utena and Anthy off at the end. Once we see Juri's relationship with Shiori and Miki, same. Touga has Shiori and Utena. Miki can't see Touga and Juri doesn't remember him (if I recall correctly); he's not for them and he's not really present anymore.

There were no real cameos, that I remember. No background faces to attract the familiar audience and distract the unfamiliar. It's very tight that way.

I think I've seen several complaints that the movie cuts out several plot points made important in some of the arcs. I'm not usually good at this, but allow me to try and address them with my opinions.

To be fairly honest, while the series did have several important moments in arcs like the Black Rose and Akio arcs, I'd think that the creators of the movies felt that to fit parts of all arcs into the movies would make the movie more stuffy than it may already be. (To be fairly honest, many characters that had development in arcs like the Black Rose and Akio arcs were either not of complete importance or weren't in need to much development to begin with.) Take Nanami for example; in the series manga, she wasn't even an important character. In fact, she wasn't in the series manga at all. Her addition to the series (and almost all episodes involving her) count for storyline filler (save for the few times that she's actually important). Hence, her role in the movie, while not as large as her series counterpart, is enough to be of importance to the movie plot while not distracting from what has to be important. Likewise, the Black Rose arc, while having some strong points important to the plot, doesn't necessarily have to be brought up in the movie, and I'm not saying this in offense to fans of the BR arc, I'm just pointing out that even if that arc had not been used in the series, the series could still be as strong as it is with what it has. (To be honest, I did feel that the BR arc only served as a sub-storyline compared to the rest of the series. Really, characters like Keiko, Tsuwabuki, and Kanae aren't quite as important as they may have seemed in that arc.) Hence, as major as it was to the series, that whole arc really didn't have anything to add to the main movie storyline involving Utena, Anthy, and secret boss bastard Akio. (Basically, I don't have a problem with the cameos and lack of arc representation in the movie.)

However, I'd like to point out something that Rosesareawesome101 pointed out as "adding to the confusion". Touga is given the role of Utena's inspiration to become a prince instead of Dios, and has this influence over her well beyond the grave, just as Akio has lasting influence over Anthy beyond his rose-laden grave. With movie!Touga's new role comes the subplot linking Utena to the characters Juri and Shiori; Just as Touga was dating (or was about to date) Utena, he was also with Shiori (or so she thinks; there's really no telling). By Word of God, the girl in the boat that nearly drowned was Juri, and as such Juri feels guilt for Touga's death, hence her role (as supposedly the "Prince") in the relationship to Shiori. Shiori, being who she is, spurs Juri into fighting against Utena because of that role. (This is all supposedly in similarity to the story Juri had in the final episode.) The point of all this is kinda easy to figure out from what's left: in mourning over Touga's death (that she probably witnessed, mind you), she's gone into this point of mind in which she now aims to become "like a prince", to protect those in need. Not just princesses, but anyone in general, as she was helpless to save Touga when he died saving Juri. This gives her the backstory necessary to bring her into her current role in the movie and leads to her development further into the movie, in which she finally remember that Touga did not "abandon" her, that he was her prince after all, and she is finally able to move on from the sadness that held her after Touga's passing. (Basically, I don't agree that Utena is as underdeveloped as some may think.)

And FINALLY, if you managed to get this far, there here's this: I also disagree that the characters are made shallow in the movie. Just as I explained Touga's role while also delving into Juri, Utena, and Shiori, there are just as powerful reasons driving Anthy to do what she does and driving Akio to be.... well, how he is. I'd go further into it, but I'm pretty sure I've typed enough into this response, and I'm not gonna be bothered to edit this to be shorter.

Last edited by Saito Hoshikawa (12-26-2012 11:15:57 PM)

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

And if Touga's importance is that he's dead and has become the image of a prince, why do we care that he was molested?

Maybe because to some, there's a possible idea that a prince is pure and flawless, depending on how the brain views princes as. When he was molested, maybe it's a symbol of him using that purity and flawlessness, hence his being unable to be a prince?

I don't know. My mind's already shit at looking into ideas and theories.

I haven't seen it with a newcomer, yet, who didn't get at least the basics of the movie. And most of the people I've showed it to enjoyed it; some loved it. Some of those who loved it, weren't able to finish the show or manga.

It may attract a different audience, but most things do. It's not incomprehensible or empty, though, and I really don't think it's padded at all. There's a huge amount going on in the movie. It's thick with detail and meaning.

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

You have to know what kind of person Shiori is, for example, to know what's up with the butterfly thing.

You don't, really, need more than the movie for that. The butterfly imagery and the transformation sequence by themselves tell you a huge amount about Shiori, and compliment how she behaves and interacts in the movie exceptionally. So does her frilly and flashy appearance as a car, versus, for example, the Wakaba jeep. Wakaba don't need no frills, just to carry her friends and make an appearance. (And that's equally awesome of both of them.)

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

And if Touga's importance is that he's dead and has become the image of a prince, why do we care that he was molested?

Because it's sad? And moving?

Because this is the pure, heroic Prince, a wisftful dead boy and yet another rape victim, who like Anthy, has found power and comfort in the assaults and sought to do right? And, that, too, is sad and moving? Heroically tragic?

Last edited by Decrescent Daytripper (12-27-2012 12:56:29 AM)

Aelanie wrote:

Saito Hoshikawa wrote:

I also disagree that the characters are made shallow in the movie. Just as I explained Touga's role while also delving into Juri, Utena, and Shiori, there are just as powerful reasons driving Anthy to do what she does and driving Akio to be.... well, how he is. I'd go further into it, but I'm pretty sure I've typed enough into this response, and I'm not gonna be bothered to edit this to be shorter.

That is indeed why the movie is hard. It's difficult to know one character's thoughts and motivations without relating them to the same in other characters, because they are all intertwined, and that web of influences and intentions that the movie weaves is anything but shallow.

I myself did go much further "into it" with my four character analyses that I posted earlier in the thread, which were written simply so that I myself could figure it all out. Rosesarewesome, did you read them? Or anyone else? I feel like they address many of the criticisms being raised with the movie here as far as the backstory and motivations of what is happening.

Even if I read these analysism it still would't change the fact that the movie changed almost every fundamental aspect and character in the show.
Heres the thing, if you going to do a movie adaption, you got to keep these characters and core elements the same for familiarity reason or else you are going to confused new and old fans, the movie itself is shallow because the character themselves are under develop and some are reduce to cameo appearances, Miki for example receive the least screen out of the student council members and Nanami just had one cameo appearance in the movie.

The Duels lack the the Tension they had in the tv series and don't have a reason for existing anyway.

While I don't like the movie as much as the show (for reasons I've already stated), I don't think the characters need to be the same as their series counterparts. And while the movie changes and compresses a lot, it still keeps a lot of similarities with the show. Anthy is more empowered, but she's still not ready to leave Ohtori behind before Utena helps her in the end. Utena's more angsty, but she's still trying to be a prince after what happened to her in her past. Shiori has a much bigger role, but she's still much like series!Shiori personality-wise. I think Touga is the one the movie changed most, which did throw me off, but... I don't entirely mind the confusion. I actually had fun trying to make sense of it, just like I had with the show.

I also don't mind Utena and Anthy riding off into the sunset to build new roads together. It has obvious elements of fanservice, but really, how many movies do you have where a homosexual couple gets their happy (or at least hopeful) ending? I get the impression that tragedy is more common for gays. So something feel-good is a nice change of pace.

But it does seem the OP is unwilling to consider other point of views on this topic, which makes me wonder why they made it in the first place.

The movie isn't for everyone, but why pretend it's not for anyone?

Rosesareawesome101 wrote:

Heres the thing, if you going to do a movie adaption, you got to keep these characters and core elements the same for familiarity reason or else you are going to confused new and old fans.

Why must you? Because the reason you list, I can't believe. I know people who came to Utena through the movie and weren't confused. I came via the TV show to the movie; didn't confuse me.

What were you confused about? I see what you were annoyed with, what you didn't like being changed, but nothing that confused you. I see you say you were confused or someone should be confused, but confusion isn't disagreeing with something, or even disliking it.

And, I'm still not sure how

Rosesareawesome101 wrote:

The symbolism is't as open to alternative interpretation as you would expect, most of it is just there for showing off what they can do with this large animation budget.

works as a statement. No, the symbolism isn't open to a huge variance of interpretations. If it was, it potentially wouldn't be very good use of symbolism or visual metaphor. BUt how is it "showing off what they can do with this large animation budget"? The lushness and fullness of the visuals? I can get that, and I applaud them for showing off, really. But that's not the symbolism. The symbols, I think, would work just as well as words or as rough drawings. They're simply connected ideas. The lushness of the presentation, hopefully, invites you to look longer and more thoroughly as the metaphors work their separate magic.

Atropos wrote:

Yeah, Touga's dead, but so was Anthy.

Wait what?

That never occurred to me.

Aelanie wrote:

You've got it backwards. It's all in the analyses, but briefly - in the movie, Touga is the one emotionally manipulating Utena in an attempt to get her to conform to his wishes. He's the one attempting to make her fail, to betray her ideals, and become dependent on him forever. He's the chessmaster manipulating Shiori to do his dirty work. He's also doing it in the knowledge that he's robbing Anthy of her would-be prince.

Meanwhile, Anthy is the one who's companionship and understanding liberate Utena from the pain of her past. From the start, Anthy sees the seeds of princehood in Utena and devotes herself to drawing her out and healing her of her pain, protecting her from Touga's influence. Granted, it worked to her purposes, but it was still a sincere and benevolent attempt to do Utena good. In the movie, Anthy saves Utena just as much as Utena saves Anthy.

According to your analyses. I see little evidence of Touga being a manipulator in the film. In fact, he's the entire reason Utena enters the duels to begin with. What's more, he's willing to leave Utena behind after it becomes clear he can't help her any longer. Anthy, on the other hand, molests Utena multiple times and then uses her as a vehicle to escape the prison she built for herself - a great disservice to her character; series!Anthy built her own coffin and escaped from it on her own.
I could write something about how this relates to Hessian influences in Utena, but that's for another thread.

Last edited by Atropos (12-27-2012 07:30:53 AM)

I think both Touga and Anthy are submitting to cycles of abuse until the ends of their respective stories, as are Shiori, Miki and his sister, Juri, et al. They're letting themselves be trapped, be haunted, they're actively holding the doors shut on their own cage.

But Touga died breaking from his abuse and doing something heroic if stupid.

Anthy thinks she's being selfless by taking her brother's abuse, by blaming herself for his behavior alive and dead. She's not.

Utena thinks Touga's being this perfect presence just out of reach to inspire her. He's not.

Juri and Shiori are just feeding off each other.

Saio's so dense (there's a phrase that's never been uttered, huh?) that he can't see his trap at all, and it's what he reiterates when he says his post-release plans. What is easy to see as tenacity isn't, it's desperation. Immature desperation focused at a broken angle that just repeats and repeats and repeats.

Even the shadow girls, who're just are principals, are cyclic commentary and direction. They're no more real than Akio. They're just projections. Traps of identity and perspective.

What's going on with Anthy and Utena - and, bear in mind, I believe Anthy is guilty in both movie and TV continuities - is absolution. The Utena car doesn't need a driver. She doesn't need to share her space or her escape with anyone. She's not competing, during that race, she's just finishing the race. She's running the track. Shiori is competing. Anthy is competing. The flycars Akio is lord of are competing. Utena lets Anthy ride with her, I thin, not because she's trying to correct her, or justify her... notice that Utena doesn't discourage anyone else from winning/completing/escaping, either. I think Utena would let them all come with if they came with. There's no reason for the Wakaba jeep to turn back, except they want to. Shiori crashes because Shiori wasn't focused on running the track, she was focused on winning the race.

Is the relationship going to last after? That depends, I think, on whether Anthy moves forward or if she regresses. But if Utena can move forward from her traps, and stop herself from trying to trap others anymore, then there's hope for everyone and anyone. Anthy's abusive in the early parts of the movie, no doubt, even her demonstration of the wound, to Utena, is emotionally abusive, but when she raises that axe, it really could go either way; she's buried her brother right beneath where Utena is laying, you know? Observatories; you can see a lot standing in one.

Lurv wrote:

Atropos wrote:

Yeah, Touga's dead, but so was Anthy.

Wait what?

That never occurred to me.

Heh! Me either. Since she seems to be able to take a bazillion knives in the series I kind of made the same jump to the movie and assumed Anthy is some kind of god or immortal being that can take that kind of stuff.

But... since, as other people have pointed out, Dios doesn't exist in the movie, is Anthy actually dead too?