I recall reading that Ikuhara had an obsession with kendo as a kid, and that Saito used to be a big fan of The Three Musketeers, so perhaps the idea of having swordfighting in the series just appealed to them for those reasons. (Enokido wanted to have guns instead, didn't he?)

Atropos wrote:

The duels represent the 'end of the world'. The first half of most duel episodes is spent illustrating the worldview and beliefs of the opponent, up to the point where they challenge Utena to force their own vision of reality onto the world at large. Then, Utena defeats them, shattering that world and forcing them to rebuild their entire perception of reality.

Interesting theory; I think I like it.

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Aren't the duels all fixed games hosted by the Double A Siblings to horn a sufficiently noble soul sword out of Utena (the pre-determined prized pawn since day one) to use as key to unlock the sealed power of Dios?  That's why they always interfere when it looks like Utena really might lose (especially in the Mikage duel), just so Anthy will stay as her Bride and keep watch over her progress.

Of course, but why did the writers choose duels over, say, fighting 50-foot-tall monsters? That's the issue here.

Atropos wrote:

Of course, but why did the writers choose duels over, say, fighting 50-foot-tall monsters? That's the issue here.

It's just an example, but fighting actual monsters would be less personal. I mean, they could be symbolic monsters, since this is Utena, but I think a duel between two people is gonna look more personal anyway. And Utena is more about the people than the action.

And it's very "romantic." You know, people having duels over who gets the lady.

Last edited by Lurv (11-16-2012 07:46:42 PM)

Lurv wrote:

It's just an example, but fighting actual monsters would be less personal. I mean, they could be symbolic monsters, since this is Utena, but I think a duel between two people is gonna look more personal anyway. And Utena is more about the people than the action.

Damn right.  The point of the duels, when they're done well, is that they grow out of a genuine conflict of wills.  Sometimes the conflict is only over who gets to revolutionize the world.  Sometimes it's also over something else: who gets to go home with Anthy, whether there are such things as miracles, who is special.  But if you want to know why it's duels instead of giant monsters, I think it's because the duels grow organically out of the idea that there is such a thing as "the power to revolutionize the world" and only one person gets to have it.  Why that premise instead of another premise?  Because this one serves the themes well.  To take one theme as an example, we could pick dealing with adolescence, as Atropos suggests.  SKU doesn't give us very good adult role models.  Adults are people like Akio and Mikage and Touga.  I think the duels illustrate adolescence by showing how wrenching it is to treat adulthood as a game about who can accumulate the most power.  Adulthood is about more than who can die with the most toys.  You could use giant monsters to talk about adolescence, too -- Eva does it well, Gurren Lagann does it well, many others do it.  But you'd be saying something different if you did it with giant monsters.  Your premise would facilitate a different take on the theme.

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

As for swords, I see them as a representation of agency.  Which apparently you need someone to pull out of your chest?

It's a two-for-one special on themes: agency and friendship.  Duels are a great way of getting both these themes on the screen at once.  When you duel, you're taking your own life in your hands -- there's your agency.  But duels are traditionally fought with a second, and SKU preserves that tradition by making the duelists' seconds integral to the duels.  When Utena beats the other guy, she's not only proving her own strength, but also vindicating her friendship with Anthy.  (This is reinforced both by where the Sword of Dios comes from and by the fact that Anthy goes to whoever wins the duels.)  By the second and third arcs, when the other duelists get seconds, we're examining their relationship at the same time -- another twofer.

No one ever pulls a sword out of eir own chest, not even Anthy.  Some things you can do by yourself, and some things you need someone else's help with.  Pulling a sword out of your chest is that second kind of thing.  The writers could have made it the first kind of thing, but again, that's a different premise that would facilitate a different take on the themes.  "It takes two" brings friendship to the front.  I don't think this in any way diminishes the swords as symbols of agency, because agency and friendship are compatible, and this is in fact an important conclusion of SKU.

IIRC in the Black Rose booklet it says the original plan was to have the heroes fight monsters. The duels were added at Enokido's suggestion based on something Saito said to him about The Three Musketeers.

lol, you should read this

satyreyes wrote:

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

As for swords, I see them as a representation of agency.  Which apparently you need someone to pull out of your chest?

It's a two-for-one special on themes: agency and friendship.  Duels are a great way of getting both these themes on the screen at once.  When you duel, you're taking your own life in your hands -- there's your agency.  But duels are traditionally fought with a second, and SKU preserves that tradition by making the duelists' seconds integral to the duels.  When Utena beats the other guy, she's not only proving her own strength, but also vindicating her friendship with Anthy.  (This is reinforced both by where the Sword of Dios comes from and by the fact that Anthy goes to whoever wins the duels.)  By the second and third arcs, when the other duelists get seconds, we're examining their relationship at the same time -- another twofer.

No one ever pulls a sword out of teir own chest, not even Anthy.  Some things you can do by yourself, and some things you need someone else's help with.  Pulling a sword out of your chest is that second kind of thing.  The writers could have made it the first kind of thing, but again, that's a different premise that would facilitate a different take on the themes.  "It takes two" brings friendship to the front.  I don't think this in any way diminishes the swords as symbols of agency, because agency and friendship are compatible, and this is in fact an important conclusion of SKU.

Yeah, I was gonna elaborate, but then I realized that, as I just edited in above, my thoughts were not together.  Are they now?  Probably not, but alcohol leads to lowered inhibitions so WHEEE RESPONSE TIME.

I'm not sure I'd call it "friendship," but it is some sort of relationship.  Alliance?  Protection?  Advocacy?  Love?  All of the above?  Or are those just aspects of friendship, and one or more of them contribute to the kind of relationship that would be conductive to sword-pulling?  The thing I saw as being most analogous to the engaged/rose bride and duelist/second (thanks, I hadn't thought of that) relationship was the prince/princess relationship: one acts on the others' behalf and for the others' benefit, while the other takes a passive role in the affair.  I'm still not sure what I would say SKU's ultimate position is on that kind of chivalry, but the series is certainly critical of it.  I'm reminded of the quote, "If you have come here to help me, you are wasting your time.  But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together."

Anthy does pull a sword out her own chest through the first and second arcs-- the Sword of Dios.  On a re-watch, I'm pretty sure that's Exactly What it Says on the Tin, i.e: it's her brother's sword, not hers, and not some magical artifact MacGuffin.  In terms of swords=agency+relationship, this could be indicative of the way the two of them are orchestrating the duels, although there is the complication of it being the sword of Dios, who... honestly, seems to exist more as an idea than as a person.

This kind of raises the issue of: why does Akio think he needs a prince's sword?  Why can't he use the Sword of Dios?  What I can come up with:

a) Akio knows that he isn't a prince anymore, so if he even thinks the sword is his, he doesn't think it'll work.

b) Anthy stole the sword, so for some reason, that renders Akio unable to use it.

c) He tried it, it didn't work because swords don't work, and he just thought he needed a different sword.

d) Anthy's sword-pulling relationship was with Dios, not Akio, so it's Dios, not Akio, who can wield the sword, only Dios doesn't exist anymore.

Or possibly all of the above.

Akio does look pretty upset when the Sword of Dios fails to appear - not that this proves anything.
But again, OT.
Here's an evolution of the original question: is SKU still a complete story if the duels are done away with?

Atropos wrote:

is SKU still a complete story if the duels are done away with?

Now that is an interesting question!    And it hinges on what you think makes a story complete.

Can I envision SKU without duels?  Actually, yes, I can -- but count the number of times I have to say "other than duels" as I describe what the first arc of this show might look like.

Utena arrives at Ohtori Academy looking to become a prince, which to her, at that time, means protecting someone.  In episode 1, Utena, through some means other than duels, accidentally and reluctantly ends up in possession of the Rose Bride.  Over the next few episodes, this arbitrary connection between Utena and Anthy is challenged by some means other than duels, and Utena discovers that she won't give Anthy up so easily.  We gradually see that Utena's behavior towards Anthy grows out of her desire to protect her (from something other than duels).  At the end of the first arc, Utena's relationship with Anthy is terminated by some means other than duels, and Utena, having begun to realize that Anthy is more to her than a project, reclaims her by doing something other than dueling . . .

You see what I mean?  I think I'm trying to reinforce Daytripper's point here: you can do away with the duels, but they leave a huge narrative vacuum.  You would have to find another way to get Utena and Anthy to meet, to illustrate Utena's protectiveness, to put their relationship in jeopardy.  Now, of course that is possible to do!  You don't even need formalized competition; Maria-sama ga Miteru and Oniisama e, to name two, manage to deal with related themes without a single secret contest behind the school.  But it would be a different show, and you'd have to revise other parts of it accordingly.  (For example, a prince who doesn't fight is a rather different kind of prince than the one SKU envisions, so you'd have to overhaul the archetypes in a way that was thematically appropriate with the new narrative.)  SKU fits together pretty tightly.

One traditional way to answer this sort of question is to write an AU fanfic.   Want to try?

Atropos wrote:

    is SKU still a complete story if the duels are done away with?

I thought the car race at the climax of the movie pretty much answered this question already.  As long as it's an activity capable of involving a clashing of views between diff. chars, then yes, I think it can replace the duels.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (11-24-2012 02:17:49 PM)

Lurv wrote:

Hmm, not sure I would enjoy the car racing as much. Utena's transformation is nice for the climax of the movie, but for a 39 episode show, I think it would get old after the novelty wore off.

Even with the sword duels, they have to change the arena setting from arc to arc to keep things (somewhat) fresh.  What if they use different track settings for different races to symbolize the different "path choices" the characters are currently facing at those points in the story as they race each other out of conflict of interest?

I thought the car race at the climax of the movie pretty much answered this question already.  As long as it's an activity capable of involving a clashing of views between diff. chars, then yes, I think it can replace the duels.

I'll agree that other competitive actions can work, but I think it's hard to find one that works quite as well. Personally, I didn't enjoy the movie nearly as much as the series and found the ending car scene to be more bizarre than it was dramatic. I teared up a bit at the ending of the TV series, but not so much in the movie (although the movie did do somethings neatly, to be fair). At any rate, with kendo clubs in all sorts of Japanese high schools, the idea of sword fighting isn't as patently outlandish as it might appear. There's a sort of historical militaristic and even national basis to kendo/fencing that gives the matches a kind of feel and import that would be lacking in competitive tennis matches or races or even boxing. That context also lends itself to the development of Utena's character, Saionji's character, and Akio's character as the "prince". And as has been said, sword fights where characters are trying to deflower each other also have got all sorts of great Freudian type interpretations.

You can still have the same sort of story existing without the sword fights, although clearly you'd have to do a huge restructuring of the whole series. The whole tone of the series would end up changing quite significantly I think.... The show is a personal drama both before and after, but I just feel it would come across as a different sort of drama if you rewrote it without these overtly competitive sequences. If you kept competitive sequences but had a different activity, I think it would still work as a narrative, but just not half as well. Interesting question. I have to step out now, I'll see if I can come back and add any more to this later tonight.