This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#26 | Back to Top09-10-2010 09:39:55 AM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4412

Re: Gender Swap

Epi_lepsia wrote:

(Male!Shiori is SO HOT etc-saiowanketc-saiowanketc-saiowank )

UNF. SUCH TRUTH. etc-saiowank

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#27 | Back to Top05-01-2011 10:18:09 PM

randomprojects
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 12-07-2009
Posts: 42

Re: Gender Swap

(Sorry for resurrecting all the dead threads...)

I think it'd be interesting to see the cast's relationships in relation to each other as well, if only a specific character was born with the opposite sex. For example, would female!Saionji desire an eternal friendship with Anthy as opposed to a romantic relationship? (Of course, fem!Saionji still would use physical violence on Anthy when she spots Anthy's true feelings towards her, which are apathy at best.) Is she still as involved with/proud of her kendo, or would she go for some other Japanese traditional activity like archery, as kendo is more frequently associated with men+masculinity? (Archery, as far as I know, is more gender-neutral.) What kind of relationship would she have with Touga and Nanami? Would she even have had the opportunity to become friends with Touga when they were young in the first place?

Personally, I do think it's possible for them to become friends when they were younger, especially if Saionji still does kendo. Depending on how you interpret Saionji's class background, it might be possible for their families to run in the same circles. But whereas Nanami and Saionji had a vaguely sibling-like relationship in some scenes of the anime, I think Nanami would eventually see fem!Saionji as a threat and have more hostility towards her (with fem!Saionji responding in kind because Nanami doesn't respect her, although in a more physically aggressive/less verbal or psychological way). I still can't quite make up my mind on Touga's treatment of fem!Saionji, although I think he'd try to seduce her (possibly subtly implying that they're not friends because Saionji is a girl, and Touga doesn't see the point of having female friends). Saionji seemed like a sensitive kid, so (I think) he developed a nasty persona to hide or compensate for his sensitivity (which he viewed as a weakness) in canon; but would there be less stigma of an emotionally sensitive girl, or would fem!Saionji still view her sensitivity as a weakness and projects a tough front, only to completely lose it (like canon Saionji) when she feels emotionally provoked or threatened?

Last edited by randomprojects (05-01-2011 10:20:58 PM)

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#28 | Back to Top05-02-2011 01:18:53 AM

Randamonian
Rose Bride
From: Australia
Registered: 11-07-2010
Posts: 102

Re: Gender Swap

Stormcrow wrote:

Let me be the first to confess that I'm a lot more willing to forgive faults in females than I am in males. I know it's not right, but it's just how I am. So I would probably dislike boy!Anthy and constantly yell at him to grow the hell up and get away from that damned manipulative sister of his. And I would probably have a harder time forgiving him for fucking with Mikage's mind the way he did. For that matter, Mikage would become an enormously sympathetic character to me as a female. Warped maybe, but I'd feel more sorry for her than I do boy!Mikage. But the biggest change would probably be Nanami. She's repugnant in so many ways, but I let it go eventually because she's young and confused... and also because she's a girl. Boy!Nanami abusing little girl!Tsuwabuki? No, that would make her as distasteful to me as Touga is now.

So how would I feel about girl!Touga? Probably a lot the way Gio feels toward Akio. emot-redface

Actually, I am much the opposite. I don't know if me being a girl has anything to do with it, but I feel women are able to be extremely craftly, manipulative and cruel. You shan't underestimate girls... they can be worse than boys.

I think I would hate Akio and Touga so much more as women, but I wouldn't be as sympathetic to Saionji as I am now. And Nanami? I would really hate her if I she a boy, funnily enough. I may be more sympathetic to guys, but a stuck up little boy who acts like he's so great wouldn't sit well with me. I understand where girl!Nanami comes from. It's relatable and forgivable.

As for female Mikage? Er, wouldn't that be me?

Wow! I sound like i'm coming from all over the place. I can't really explain why I like or dislike people. It's just a feeling I get.

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#29 | Back to Top05-05-2011 03:17:35 AM

CausalityStar
Caretaker
From: Idaho
Registered: 09-12-2010
Posts: 215

Re: Gender Swap

Hm, it would really be interesting if the cast was gender-swaped. Even if the personalities were exactly the same, we'd still view the characters differently because of their gender. Even if we happen to reject so-called traditional gender roles, we probably still have weird unconscious ideas about the way people of either gender generally are supposed to behave and what a girl or guy has to do in order to be likable. Not to mention, the whole show is kind of a critique on the way gender roles work in society right now. Remember the line, "A girl who cannot become a princess is doomed to become a witch." One of the themes in Utena involves breaking out of having only to choose between the princess or witch roles and showing that a girl can become empowered and can be a prince. Needless to say, that would probably be very different if the main character was a boy who wanted to be a princess.

As for girl!Ruka some fans might view her as more sympathetic than boy!Ruka, but it would definitely vary a lot. I think that many fans would despise or be irritated at girl!Ruka for having to show up to fix boy!Juri and boy!Shiori's relationship.  It think it's similar to what OnlyInThisLight said about how the Juri/Shiori dynamic was pretty much a "girl's only" dynamic at first, but then they had to have a princely guy come to fix their problems. If Ruka was a girl, she might still be disliked for the same reasons.

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#30 | Back to Top05-05-2011 07:50:57 PM

ArsenicForBreakfast
Pathtracer
From: The Destination of Your Fate
Registered: 10-14-2007
Posts: 340
Website

Re: Gender Swap

Thought about it...and realized that if they were both male, I'd probably ship Nanami/Anthy like Fed EX.  By the same token, Akio/Touga would be quite etc-wankgirl worthy.  For some reason though, I think I would have hated Male!Utena.


I'm a fan of pessimism: if you maintain the lowest expectations possible, they'll always be met or exceeded.

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#31 | Back to Top05-05-2011 09:09:30 PM

randomprojects
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 12-07-2009
Posts: 42

Re: Gender Swap

I admit I have difficulty seeing male!Utena, because Utena challenges gender roles by wanting to become a prince... somehow I don't think the series would deliver it's message of "you have to save yourself, no one else can do it for you" in regards to Anthy if boy!Utena wanted to become a princess (who are characterized in SKU as damsels in distress, always depending on others to save them). Unless boy!Utena desires to become a fairy godmother instead... then the narrative might still go along similar lines. However, instead of an emphasis on chivalry and saving the princesses (agency falls on the prince), the fairy godmother often helps the heroines along on their quest, but never directly 'saves' them. Therefore, I think the dynamic boy!Utena have with Anthy, whether male or female, would be significantly different than in canon, which is very interesting to think about. Boy!Utena as a fairy godmother would help Anthy on her/his tasks, but this interaction between them would force Anthy to have a bit more agency, as the fairy godmother only helps, maybe casts protection, but doesn't really rush in to save the princesses like the prince archetype. They're enablers, in a sense, while the prince is responsible for the princess's life/virtue.

Hm, would boy!Anthy still be the Rose Bride (the ultimate submissive doll), or would he be represented in another fairytale trope? It also feels kind of weird to call him a wizard (spear counterpart of witch), as the evil male role in fairytales seems to be the false king or dragon, as opposed to a wizard (evil wizards do exist, but mostly male sorcerers are the good guys fulfilling the mentor/helper roles. The masculine evil in fairytales seems to either be the evil uncle/false king or the monster/dragon.) Oh that note, what would girl!Dios and female!Akio be, if we match them up with fairy tale archetypes, as the show does? If we take Dios' nobility into account, it'd make most sense that she was a princess - but that seems to go against the characterization of princesses in the show. Maybe she was a fairy godmother who goes around helping all the damsels? But fairy godmother is magic, and works differently than a prince. A prince is supposed to save everyone; failing to do so is blamed on him not being a good enough prince, hence the angry mob outside their door; on the other hand, fairy godmothers only bless certain girls, namely those who are kind, gentle, good etc. So if a girl doesn't have a fairy godmother, the fairy godmother doesn't get blamed (no one seems to go "hey you! Why didn't you bless my daughter?!"). It'd be the girl's fault instead, for not being virtuous/hardworking/gentle etc enough to warrant a blessing from a fairy godmother.

Therefore, I have an easier time accepting genderflipped council members and other characters, as they don't absolutely rely on these tropes as part of their characters (with maybe the exception of Touga, as he tries to play prince), but my brain gets a bit confused trying to work out how exactly Utena, Anthy and Dios/Akio would've worked out as the opposite gender without changing the themes and messages of the show too much (because these characters relies on the tropic role they play, and the archetypal purposes those roles have, for most of the series).

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#32 | Back to Top05-20-2011 02:13:45 PM

RhythmFusion
Rose Smilee
Registered: 03-18-2010
Posts: 133

Re: Gender Swap

For some reason the idea of a male Utena wanting to be a fairy makes me think of Winx Club...emot-confused

Personally, unless the motivations and/or circumstances for the characters were different, I'd probably feel exactly the same way about the characters if they were gender flipped as I do the way they are now. The closest thing to a gender bias I've ever had was wanting to kill (or at least beat the crap out of) most of the boys at my school(s) for trying to pick a fight with me, only to run like the cowards they were when I actually went to attack them. And that was only because the majority of the instigators were boys. I had some issues with girls too, but it was mostly boys I had to deal with.


"But screw your courage to the sticking place, and we'll not fail." ~ Lady Macbeth; Macbeth - Act One, Scene 7
"Crying is such hypocrisy. How can happiness cause the same reaction as sadness? Does pleasure share the same edge of the blade of life as pain?" - What His Crimson Eyes Believe in: Ch. 2

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#33 | Back to Top05-20-2011 03:27:49 PM

monica
New Student
Registered: 12-22-2010
Posts: 9

Re: Gender Swap

FemaleSaionji beating the crap out of boyAnthy would be like any anime with tsundere as heroine out there.

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#34 | Back to Top05-20-2011 05:02:39 PM

RhythmFusion
Rose Smilee
Registered: 03-18-2010
Posts: 133

Re: Gender Swap

The Utena series being what it is, even if that was the case, it would probably end up getting deconstructed just like every other anime trope and fairytale motif the series uses.school-eng101


"But screw your courage to the sticking place, and we'll not fail." ~ Lady Macbeth; Macbeth - Act One, Scene 7
"Crying is such hypocrisy. How can happiness cause the same reaction as sadness? Does pleasure share the same edge of the blade of life as pain?" - What His Crimson Eyes Believe in: Ch. 2

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#35 | Back to Top12-21-2011 05:48:07 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 907

Re: Gender Swap

I wonder what people would think about f-Akio and m-Kanae's relationship, since it'd be a 30-something woman cheating on her 20-odd-year-old fiance.

Of course, f-Akio would then be a cougar, so they'd all hate her.

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#36 | Back to Top12-22-2011 08:07:33 AM

wingedbeastie
Nest Boxer
From: Sandy Eggo, CA
Registered: 03-28-2007
Posts: 1011

Re: Gender Swap

I want to do this.

No, seriously. I have to research like a mother, but I think that the deconstruction of powerful female archetypes in fairy tales and mythology is a little due to be explored

I'll edit this later, but this is going to happen....


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#37 | Back to Top12-22-2011 10:32:03 AM

Rotten Mooring
Precious One
Registered: 10-26-2011
Posts: 281

Re: Gender Swap

monica wrote:

FemaleSaionji beating the crap out of boyAnthy would be like any anime with tsundere as heroine out there.

No kidding! (<-is getting tired of the recent Tsundere trend)

Stormcrow wrote:

Let me be the first to confess that I'm a lot more willing to forgive faults in females than I am in males. I know it's not right, but it's just how I am.

It's kinda weird how certain gender biases, if not double standards, change our perspectives on things.bemot-keke

Now I must brainstorm for myself! school-sherlock

I think in a completely gender swapped cast, Saionji would've made a better first impression on me if he were a she (though the end result would be the same emot-wink). Utena, Anthy, Touga, Juri, Nanami, Mikage, Ruka and Wakaba would probably be unaltered in my eyes. Kanae would be marginally the same either way. I likely would've disliked a male Shiori more. That kind of conniving behavior is unflattering in anyone, but my personal biases are such that I'm more prone to expecting that behavior in women and more offended when I see such behaviors in men. I might have liked a male Keiko more (because I would've enjoyed cat-calling him a creeper, not for any useful reasons). That scene where Keiko looks in through the window at the party (and at Touga) would have struck less of a sympathetic, Cinderella chord. Would've been more dismissive of a female Tsuwabuki... Probably would've still wound up shipping Nanami/Tsuwabuki either way though...school-freud

I also would probably have a more negative opinion of Akio if he had been a she and I'm having a hard time trying to work out why. emot-confused. I think it's because the stereotype of the female bad guys also being the only sexually assertive/ambitious characters in shoujo anime, horror films and the like has always rubbed me the wrong way. The Prince deconstruction that Akio has got going on was intriguing, but an affluent, good looking woman who seduces everyone and is (more or less) the villain of the series? Wouldn't have impressed me. She would've been one among many.

Edit: Does Mamiya count?

Last edited by Rotten Mooring (12-22-2011 10:35:57 AM)

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#38 | Back to Top12-22-2011 11:26:29 AM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
Website

Re: Gender Swap

Rotten Mooring wrote:

I also would probably have a more negative opinion of Akio if he had been a she and I'm having a hard time trying to work out why. emot-confused. I think it's because the stereotype of the female bad guys also being the only sexually assertive/ambitious characters in shoujo anime, horror films and the like has always rubbed me the wrong way. The Prince deconstruction that Akio has got going on was intriguing, but an affluent, good looking woman who seduces everyone and is (more or less) the villain of the series? Wouldn't have impressed me. She would've been one among many.

Think of it in a different manner, though. If the gender of the big three of the cast were altered, ergo, a female Akio, and a male Anthy and a male Utena, the entire premise of the genre is altered utterly. It simply doesn't survive the transition, in my opinion. A male Utena trying hard to be a princess instead of a prince is simply not the same story we currently have, though the story of a male protagonist who wishes to eschew typically masculine desires in lieu of something more feminine could be a fantastic tale when done correctly. And it must be that way, as a male Utena trying to be a prince strips away some of the allure from the storyline.

Thus, if done properly, a female Akio becomes something vastly different. While the seduction and power over the opposite sex would no doubt still be present, we could look at a female Akio as the ultimate antithesis of the princess archtype: the idealized object of affection and questing whose brother could never be her prince. A female Akio might actually have disdain for a male Utena, and in fact, be close in spirit to our normal female Utena, or a corrupted version of her.

A fascinating story can exist here if done correctly, and I think a female Akio wouldn't be just a vaginaized version of the one we know.

Last edited by Ashnod (12-22-2011 11:28:44 AM)


Flowers without names blooming in the field can only sway in the wind. But I was born with a destiny of roses, born to live in passion and glory.

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#39 | Back to Top12-22-2011 02:00:53 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 907

Re: Gender Swap

I don't see why swapping genders has to include swapping prince/princess roles.

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#40 | Back to Top12-22-2011 04:20:08 PM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
Website

Re: Gender Swap

Atropos wrote:

I don't see why swapping genders has to include swapping prince/princess roles.

It doesn't necessarily, I just feel it would be more interesting than a male Utena trying to be a prince.


Flowers without names blooming in the field can only sway in the wind. But I was born with a destiny of roses, born to live in passion and glory.

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#41 | Back to Top12-22-2011 07:10:42 PM

Rotten Mooring
Precious One
Registered: 10-26-2011
Posts: 281

Re: Gender Swap

Ashnod wrote:

Think of it in a different manner, though. If the gender of the big three of the cast were altered, ergo, a female Akio, and a male Anthy and a male Utena, the entire premise of the genre is altered utterly. It simply doesn't survive the transition, in my opinion. A male Utena trying hard to be a princess instead of a prince is simply not the same story we currently have, though the story of a male protagonist who wishes to eschew typically masculine desires in lieu of something more feminine could be a fantastic tale when done correctly. And it must be that way, as a male Utena trying to be a prince strips away some of the allure from the storyline.

Thus, if done properly, a female Akio becomes something vastly different. While the seduction and power over the opposite sex would no doubt still be present, we could look at a female Akio as the ultimate antithesis of the princess archtype: the idealized object of affection and questing whose brother could never be her prince. A female Akio might actually have disdain for a male Utena, and in fact, be close in spirit to our normal female Utena, or a corrupted version of her.

A fascinating story can exist here if done correctly, and I think a female Akio wouldn't be just a vaginaized version of the one we know.

Oh yeah, I was just thinking of a direct transfer of characters cool- all else remaining equal. As soon as you start pondering different stories it begins to get a tad hypothetical for me. Until you delve into specifics, with specific parameters, we could be talking about anything.

Though, I think the man that eschews the masculine archetype in favor of the feminine has been done. Maybe not center stage, but the issue has been addressed by way of the Drag Queen and Trap! characters in anime and film. Has that story been presented in an epic or even well done way? Not often. But it has been done. Most of the stories you see for the reverse start with a Tom-Boy and end with said tomboy discovering a (male/hetero) love interest and exploring/becoming comfortable with their feminine side. Sometimes they retain their athleticism, their tomboy strength, but it's more common to get the implied lesson that all girls will become ladies (to attract and/or pacify said male love interest).

This could just as well be a bias of mine. (Maybe I'm not watching the right shows. emot-wink) Utena wanting to become a prince was unique (to me) not just for the fairy-tale deconstruction but also for the female hero remaining an old-school hero right up until the end. Somehow, I just feel that's more of a rare plot line than a man aspiring to a traditionally female role.

I think corrupted feminine models, incl. princesses, have been done with some regularity as well- but I just got done reading Lugwig Kakumei, so that statement is probably more suspect than anything else I've said today school-sherlock.

Edit: Truly, a fem!Akio may just be subject to a gender bias of mine. I think I might be more sympathetic to male!Akio than I would be to a fem!Akio... But that's what this is all about! Figuring out where gender changes perception! emot-biggrin

Last edited by Rotten Mooring (12-22-2011 07:11:41 PM)

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#42 | Back to Top12-23-2011 07:40:51 AM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Gender Swap

I actually think a female Akio would be even more terrifying and fascinating than the male one. Cannon Akio is a scary manipulative bastard, but when you consider that women are traditionally considered sneakier and more cunning and underhanded than males, the creep factor goes right off the charts. And a female Akio would also most likely be free of cannon male Akio's sexism. That sexism is a major weakness in Akio's ability to pull people's strings. I could see female Akio with a hold over Anthy that is less subtle and a lot more directly controlling as opposed to male Akio's subtle string-pulling. Akio is already a magnificent bastard; add traditional female traits and fuck Ohtori, she'd be controlling the whole damn universe with the power of the yoni.

For some strange reason, I'm finding that kind of hot... etc-wankgirl

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#43 | Back to Top12-23-2011 10:41:20 AM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 907

Re: Gender Swap

Hmm. So, I'm guessing it goes like this:

m-Utena wants to become a prince. Obviously, this attitude doesn't endear one to altruism and a desire to help others, so m-Utena would be more like Movie Utena than Series Utena. Thus, f-Akio's seduction would come through becoming a damsel in distress that Utena has to save constantly. One day, they go to a carnival. Akio falls off a ride, Utena saves her, and she decides to...reward him.etc-wankdude

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#44 | Back to Top12-23-2011 01:00:33 PM

Anthiena
Egghead
From: ...the space between your ears
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1108

Re: Gender Swap

Hahahaha. That above is interesting.


I had an interesting conversation with Anji and I can't believe that this hasn't really been mentioned really. A girl wanting to exercise power is a prince-the male sphere of influence. So what can men seek instead?

Symbolicallly, there is a story about just that-King Arthur. People forget that it is not Excalibur itself that was special-it was the sheath, the female symbol. What was Arthur seeking? The holy grail, a feminine symbol. So let's think about it these things and some of the gender roles of men and what they are denied.

Bear with me, I am speaking of some really conservative values.

Men seeking their inner woman, their bit of feminine half can be as fraught with problems as women's striving for power. Many times, being a man means being stoic. Think of The Wall-the ideal of a man is someone who holds power and only feels what is "manly" to do so. Anything outside of that is supposed to be hidden. They are supposed to protect and if they show anything through that armor, they are not "real men" and get knocked down for such a thing.

A man seeking the feminine is in actuality, seeking the right to allow themselves to feel, to be vulnerable-to have a different option from knight/hunter/prince or End of the World/beast/dragon but something new, something that can be fine just being emotional, vulnerable but strong in affirming these things-or maybe something old:

Fae.

The story of Utena is one as much about transformation, a becoming. The escape from childish fantasies into a workable reality and the ability to shape it, to become empowered. To become free.

I did not wish to be the tyrant nor the beast-
to use the power or be used by the power
This was not true to myself
I want to be free and help others to be free

Last edited by Anthiena (12-23-2011 01:05:20 PM)


I stopped seeking to be sought after. That wasn't being true to myself.
I want to become someone who can exercise power. I want to become a prince. - Ikuni

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#45 | Back to Top12-25-2011 03:53:44 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Gender Swap

Rotten Mooring wrote:

Edit: Truly, a fem!Akio may just be subject to a gender bias of mine. I think I might be more sympathetic to male!Akio than I would be to a fem!Akio... But that's what this is all about! Figuring out where gender changes perception! emot-biggrin

I'm gonna throw out the reverse sexism card here. Neverminding the reality of the situation, popular culture is full of romanticized versions of a female Akio. Sexually manipulative cougars aren't at all uncommon, and often times, they're portrayed almost positively, as a strong woman RAGING AGAINST THE COCKMACHINE. Men being portrayed that way in popular culture tend to be interesting villains at the best, and at the worst, strongly negative charges made by creators against the patriarchy.

When it's a woman being like that, there's a temptation to be all YOU GO GIRL about it, even if you're horrified by the character's actions. There's no such redemption for Akio. It's incredibly politically incorrect to go 'wow that sexually manipulative abuse man is cool' because, well, it hits too close to home as a reality that many would rather not have rubbed in their face. It makes him and his actions more shocking than they'd be from a woman, to be honest.

I'd be curious to see someone try to portray a female version of him if only because the trap those characters often fall into is that their behavior is constantly and blatantly petty, often with an obvious vendetta in mind. Nothing that isn't true about Akio on some level, but seems less obvious from a male villain than from the female ones. It'd be interesting to see if that single-minded selfishness without regard for the WHY of it would be preserved.

Anthiena - I like that! It does lead to some interesting implications about the show, because I can't really think of how any of the men find that inner femininity, nor do any of them strive for it. But then, Utena herself is the only character striving to really challenge the dynamics she exists in.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#46 | Back to Top12-27-2011 03:00:26 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Gender Swap

In Reverse Gender World, Akio lives in a basement and Mikage lives in a tower.  school-eng101

Mikage is actually a bit of an interesting case, as far as exploring my own gender biases goes.  Mikage in the show as it stands has a bit of a seductive personality -- Gio has a great essay about how his conversation with Miki about joining the Mikage Seminar is sexually charged -- but it's something I tend to overlook.  I don't read the elevator scenes as sexually seductive.  But if Mikage were a woman, I'd be much more likely to read her as a seductress.  That would be a shame, because Mikage is interesting partly because he doesn't really use sex to get what he wants from you; he uses your insecurities, not your desires.  Making him a woman would have obfuscated that fact to me, so I'm kinda glad he's a man.

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#47 | Back to Top12-27-2011 06:41:59 AM

wblstudios
Banned
Registered: 08-17-2011
Posts: 564

Re: Gender Swap

All I know is that since Touga sleeps around, he's considered a playboy.  But if he was a woman, he'd be considered a whore.  And that's kind of a sad statement on society.

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#48 | Back to Top12-27-2011 07:36:16 PM

Saito Hoshikawa
Thorn of Death
From: Satan's armpit in Texas
Registered: 12-27-2010
Posts: 481

Re: Gender Swap

Someone said earlier that the Miki/Kozue relationship would be a lot more disturbing in gender-swapping. Holy damn are they right.

(Bear with me; I've been trying to finish the series the best I can, but I keep losing track at what episodes I've watched.)

Canon Miki and his twin sister have a complicated relationship. Canon Kozue has a brother complex, in which she seems to want Miki's full attention instead of him focusing on Anthy (or Utena, in manga canon). She becomes jealous when Miki talks to other girls, so to make him jealous/angry, she acts out (mostly sexually) to get his attention. This results in Miki becoming near unable to have a girlfriend because of Kozue's behavior. But when Anthy (or Utena, in manga) reminds Miki of Kozue, he ends up crushing on that person, leading to a desire to find someone that takes the place of Kozue ("That which shines", if I remember correctly.)

Gender-swapped Kozue, instead of probably being seen as a whore for sleeping around, would instead have the problem that maybe he's a playboy (or a man-whore). It would probably be more or less the same when they're in their canon genders, only it's a sister complex, and Miki's attracted to boys. /states obvious, i should probably be quiet now/

It seems to me, however, that gender-swap Kozue would be trying to use the idea of male dominance (?) to gain control over gender-swap Miki (and therein, to gain gs!Miki's attention, he would sleep with other girls, and possibly hurt other guys), but gs!Miki's trying to find solace in another less dominating guy - which ends up being the targeted gender-swap Anthy (or gender-swap Utena), so gender-swapped Miki's drive to duel would be to have that someone that would treat her as equal to them, just like how canon Miki wanted to find someone that was similar in talent, but not behavior, to canon Kozue.

(And one hour and one slice of pie later, I made this. Ehhhhhhhhhhhh my brain hurts. emot-gonk)

Last edited by Saito Hoshikawa (12-27-2011 07:36:52 PM)


"Whatever all this is, it needs to not be a thing at all."

Being a ghosty piece of shit with no standards since 2014 (maybe earlier).

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#49 | Back to Top01-05-2012 08:43:18 PM

Davine Lu Linvega
Spam Arsonist
Registered: 06-08-2011
Posts: 88

Re: Gender Swap

Is it just me, or does the relationship between gender-swapped Kozue and Miki you just described bear a strong resemblance to the one between Akio and Anthy? Girl Miki seeking a 'shining thing' to replace the kind-hearted boy she once loved? Very interesting...

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#50 | Back to Top01-06-2012 10:53:58 PM

Saito Hoshikawa
Thorn of Death
From: Satan's armpit in Texas
Registered: 12-27-2010
Posts: 481

Re: Gender Swap

Davine Lu Linvega wrote:

Is it just me, or does the relationship between gender-swapped Kozue and Miki you just described bear a strong resemblance to the one between Akio and Anthy? Girl Miki seeking a 'shining thing' to replace the kind-hearted boy she once loved? Very interesting...

(I had a fucking novel going on here, and then my laptop just shuts down without a problem. FUUUUUUUUUU- Shit, let's see if I can remember what I put...)

/assuming you mean canon!Akio and Anthy/

Well, canon!Akio possibly wants power (dominance, if you will) over the world/Anthy/everyone at the school, and genderswap!Kozue wants only gs!Miki's attention, or maybe even power (*cough* dominance) over her. Gs!Miki wants to replace gs!Kozue with someone that will treat her as equal and not control her. (Hence what she would see in gs!Anthy or maybe even gs!Utena would be someone that would treat her as equal instead of as a lesser being.) Anthy's reason for being the Rose Bride was to, in one form of the series, find a new prince to replace Dios/Akio*, and in other parts, to help Akio/Dios* regain his power. So, in a sense, canon!Akio and Anthy are similar to gs!Kozue and Miki, respectively.

* - The reason why Akio and Dios are both talked about is because in just about all versions of the series, Dios and Akio were the same person. (I think the movie made it clear that it was only Akio that existed - for a while. In the manga and anime, Dios was split apart, in the manga because he most likely became corrupted by power, and in the anime because he became too weak to "save the world", hence the mob seen in the anime trying to get to Dios. Canon!Anthy split Dios into two parts, the one we now know as Dios and the one known as Akio, but this is different for the manga and anime:
~ Anime canon: Shortly after splitting herself to control the pain of the million swords of hate (thanks to the mob), which subsequently sent Dios into a loss of faith and split him into both Dios and Akio
~ Manga canon: Due to corruption of power, Anthy splits them herself. (The manga's explanation of Akio's name makes it pretty clear of who is what part of him.)
This subsequent loss of his power drives Akio to attempt to regain his power, seeking Anthy's help. Anthy agrees, as she would most likely get her prince back, had things not turned out the way they did.*

Now if you were talking about a physical relationship between them, then I can try to make sense of that, too.


"Whatever all this is, it needs to not be a thing at all."

Being a ghosty piece of shit with no standards since 2014 (maybe earlier).

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