This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top08-24-2014 09:02:26 AM

Salem Saberhagen
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 08-22-2014
Posts: 16

Chivalrous/Feminisuto

I meant to just lurk but there is something that's been nagging at me. Forgive me if it's been addressed before.

When doing gallant things Touga is fond of referring to himself in a way that subtitles translate as "chivalrous." But he pretty clearly intones a word that sounds like "feminist."

Now, if we dispense with tumblr debates and accept that feminist means "supports equality between genders," chivalrous is actually a more fitting term. Thinking sexes should be equal doesn't entail throwing yourself in front of a sword meant for a woman. Another paraphrased comment directed at Touga, "you call yourself chivalrous/feminist but you really don't love anyone." You can be open-minded and progressive while also being a misanthrope.

The word chivalrous brings up a princely image of someone who is romantic and sacrifices themselves for women, which does seem to capture the idea a bit more acutely than "feminist." But why the word "feminisuto" in the Japanese version then? Does the word come with a different connotation in Japanese? Would that have changed between now and when Utena was produced?

Last edited by Salem Saberhagen (08-24-2014 09:07:29 AM)

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#2 | Back to Top08-24-2014 10:37:25 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Chivalrous/Feminisuto

Salem Saberhagen wrote:

Does the word come with a different connotation in Japanese?

Bingo!  Feminisuto very much does not mean "feminist."  What seems to have happened is that Japanese borrowed the word "feminist" but somehow got the impression that it just meant "treating women properly."  And good behavior in Japan already involved treating women properly, in a gender-role-bound way, so that's the idea that the word got attached to.  "Chivalrous" is a very good translation for feminisuto: a chivalrous man treats women like a gallant knight or a dashing Southern gentleman would.  They're pretty little things who need protection and deserve the indulgence that we give to people who are weaker than us.

The Japanese word for a feminist is jokenronsha, made of kanji that mean "women's rights discourse person."  As far as I know, the English-derived word has not been reclaimed.

Last edited by satyreyes (08-24-2014 10:39:56 AM)

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#3 | Back to Top08-24-2014 09:35:14 PM

Salem Saberhagen
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 08-22-2014
Posts: 16

Re: Chivalrous/Feminisuto

That's very helpful, thank you! Google translate certainly didn't pick up on that cultural history. emot-keke

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#4 | Back to Top08-24-2014 11:51:31 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Chivalrous/Feminisuto

You bet! emot-smile  Google Books may be ahead of Google Translate on this one.  I dug up an essay by one Keiko Tanaka in a book called "Unwrapping Japan: Society and Culture in Anthropological Perspective."  It's a 1992 anthology, so it's showing its age by now, but it contains this bit of sociology (or observational humor, depending on your perspective):

Keiko Tanaka wrote:

. . . [L]et us look at the following example of a caption used in a series of advertisements for Tokyo Gas, one of the city gas companies.  This series was so successful that it won the 1984 Asahi Advertising Prize.

Toshi gasu-tie feminisuto ne.
City   gas       feminist     tag-q
"City Gas is a feminist, isn't it?"

Why is the gas company called a feminist?  The answer may lie in the pictures shown on the advertisements.  One of them shows a large pot boiling over on a gas cooker.  Another depicts a woman wearing an apron and holding a plate, doing the washing up.  Yet another shows the same woman's reflection in a mirror, putting on lipstick.  She is not looking at herself, for her attention seems to be diverted by something else.  These advertisements are for a gas cooker with a special sensor, which automatically stops the gas supply when the fire is extinguished, a gas boiler with similar sensor equipment, and an alarm for the gas leaks.  These are all new pieces of apparatus produced by the company.  The company is described as "feminist" on the grounds that it has come up with these instruments to help women with their housework.

Link!

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#5 | Back to Top08-25-2014 12:27:59 AM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 378

Re: Chivalrous/Feminisuto

Everytime he says it, I think of this:

http://rikaconfesses.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/that-word-meme.jpg

Last edited by Aelanie (08-25-2014 04:21:15 PM)

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#6 | Back to Top08-25-2014 01:52:49 AM

Karuka
Electric Apocalypse
From: Planet Uranus
Registered: 06-27-2014
Posts: 160

Re: Chivalrous/Feminisuto

just to add a little more, from  jisho

    フェミニスト    1: man who indulges women (from feminist); gentleman

there are 2 definitions but this is the one you are looking for I guess


まずここでこのオスカル・フランソワの命をたってからにされるがよい!

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