The last time I saw that episode I had these thoughts...

Episode 29 wrote:

Ruka:  Our combination can beat Tenjou Utena...and obtain the Power of Miracles.
Juri:  Did you corner Shiori and I this much just for that?
Ruka:  A sacrifice must be made for a miracle to occur.
Juri:  That's not fair! Do you want the Power of Miracles that badly?!
Ruka:  You're the one who wants the Power of Miracles!
Juri:  Shiori isn't some fucking tool of yours!
Ruka:  "Believe in miracles, that your wishes come true"...aren't those your words?

Ruka, as a person, is still just a teenager.  I think that in these lines he is hinting at something to Juri that she doesn't hear.  I think it's pretty widely accepted that Ruka was in love with Juri.  If the "believe in miracles" quote was originally Juri's, maybe it once gave Ruka hope that if he believed in miracles, someday his wishes would come true.  And now Juri's own words (which had given him hope) have been twisted and are torturing her... because of Shiori.  Maybe that's one reason he hates Shiori so much and why he's so sure he knows what's best for Juri.

Episode 29 wrote:

Juri:  You're misunderstanding something. I don't care if my wishes don't come true.
Juri:  And even if I obtained the Power of Miracles, the only thing I'd wish for...
Juri:  ...is freeing her from you. That's all.
Juri:  I'm not letting you get your way any more.
Juri:  And to see that you don't, I'll even take you up on your proposition.

I think that Juri is actually talking about herself here, not just Shiori.  If she did have the power of miracles, she would use it to free herself.

Episode 29 wrote:

Ruka:  Hidden wishes...
Ruka:  How painful they must be.
Ruka:  What're you waiting for, Juri?!
Ruka:  Juri, she's a fool.
Ruka:  Because she doesn't realize that her miracle is standing atop someone else's sacrifice.
Ruka:  But that's the sort of person who receives miracles!
Ruka:  Unfair, isn't it! Juri!!

It's assumed that Ruka is talking about Shiori here, and he probably is.  But don't his words apply equally to Juri?  She's a fool because she doesn't realize her miracle is standing on top of Ruka's sacrifice.  But Juri is the sort of person who receives miracles -- and Ruka (ill, dying, being a bastard...all to help Juri get her miracle) will not get his own miracle.  It's unfair.

Or is it?

Episode 29 wrote:

Juri:  Are you doing well? The next time we meet...
Juri:  ...there's one thing I really want to ask.
Juri:  What hopes had you entrusted to the Power of Miracles?
Juri:  And who were they for?
Juri:  I pray that they come true.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (02-12-2008 06:08:42 PM)

Okay, I had a real "WTF" moment when I was reading this thread. For this reason, and because I've been thinking of what this could mean subconsciously, I'm posting it here.

I write fantasy stories. Let's start there. While I've been working on the series for longer than I've been watching Utena, I believe I created the character in question post-Utena.

I've got a character named Off White who was raped by a demon, also one of the main characters, three years before the main story begins. In the village she hails from, when a woman has intercourse for the first time, she must wear a blood red cape to signify that she has just lost her virginity, since a woman's first child is considered sacred and it's forbidden to have sex with a woman who is pregnant with her firstborn. Three years later, even though she's in no way obligated to wear the cape any more, she still does, keeping it as a constant "I'm off limits" message and a reminder to her as she seeks her revenge against the demon.

Now, putting the fact that both have red hair aside, I started comparing her to Juri. Both of them wear a symbol of an event that hurt them deeply-- around their necks, no less, three years after the incident. This wasn't intentional, and it made me wonder both if this created similarity was deliberate on a subconscious level, and what else I might be able to spot in Juri's symbolism to Off White.

There. You probably all don't care much since it relates to something you haven't read, but I thought it was interesting enough to post.

brian wrote:

Is it possible that the girl getting undeserved miracles is Utena herself? That first duel must have really rankled Juri.

yes, and part of me has thought for a very long time that is exactly who Ruka was referring to. But as Ruka really didn't know Utena well enough to make that kind of judgment, so it would be merely nice symmetry and not intent that makes Ruka's words reference Utena.

Sorry for a little bit of an offtopic, but yesterday I was reading something about an astronomy, and I found this fragment:
"The first modern orrery was built circa 1704 by George Graham. Graham gave the first model (or its design) to the celebrated instrument maker John Rowley of London to make a copy for Prince Eugene of Savoy. Rowley was commissioned to make another copy for his patron Charles Boyle, 4th Earl of Orrery, from which the device took its name. This model was presented to Charles' son John, later the 5th Earl."
Earl = Prince, as well
Akio = Prince
What this has to do with Utena, one might ask? Akio's duel song is "Internal Clock, Municipal Orrery"
Maybe it's nothing, but I wonder if Ikuhara knew that orrery derives from a name of a prince?

brian wrote:

Here's another one that's even more tenuous. Anthy's dress and the car are both red. It's probably just because red is a major motif in itself but it does enhance the symbolism, both sexual and psychological, of Akio "riding" his car.

That's always something I've wondered about too.

Not to mention the gold and green touches on the car that also resemble her dress. 

In the movie, it really goes along with the whole "key" business, just sort of reinforcing that Akio is not a true prince.  He can't find the key to Anthy's car, nor the power he once had.  He can't be a prince because he doesn't have the key, and he does not have the key because he does not intend to free Anthy and let her leave Ohtori.  The car represents what he once was and cannot be.  Him not being able to drive the car may also represent how he too is trapped at Ohtori, by his own desire to play prince.

When it comes to the series, I think it ties in strongly with what Razarra said about the car first and foremost being a method of transportation.  In other words, how the duelists and Akio, each for their own reasons, use Anthy as a way to get where they want to go, as a means to end.

On that train of thought, Akio is the only one who drives the car (He offered to let Touga when he knew that Touga did not have a driver's liscense.....teasing bastard ).   But Akio only ever drives the car in endless circles.  Even on his little excursions with Wakaba and Utena he does not leave the campus (I assume, I may be wrong).   Everyone thinks that Anthy and the power of Dios will take them somewhere, will help them break free of whatever it is that binds them, but Akio knows the truth.  Anthy is eternal (ties back in with endless circles even more) and trapped herself, and her and the power associated with her can free no one.  And that's how he intends it to stay.

And Akio jumping on the hood of the car?  I'm not sure ( I never am) but it might be a representation of the power he holds over Anthy, that he does not even need to be behind the seat to control her.  Also, it may represent Anthy's own part in the duels and Akio's plots, how the car drives itself even when unattended, showing that hidden will, or drive (lame pun, I know) of Anthy's.  The part of Anthy that does what she does of her own free will, not from being forced.


................Hope this doesn't sound stupid.  I've been kind of lurking on this thread, as it is rather intimidating.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (02-15-2008 10:49:39 PM)

It's not quite symbolism, but I was thinking about Nanami's behavior in episode 19-- constantly saying that Mitsuru is a child. It seems to have a dual purpose of convincing Mitsuru and reaffirming that fact to herself.

She seems equally caught up in the idea that she's an adult, and reminding herself that Mitsuru is still just a kid maybe serves to reinforce her own confidence in her adulthood.

After looking over the "Shadow Plays" thread, I remembered something else that has to do with Juri, Shiori, and Ruka.

There was a scene in the episode when Utena duels against Juri and Ruka. It showed Shiori standing in front of the stage where the Shadow Girls usually play. I'm wondering, what's your take of this? Because I'm not thinking of anything really good.

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

dabouse1 wrote:

After looking over the "Shadow Plays" thread, I remembered something else that has to do with Juri, Shiori, and Ruka.

There was a scene in the episode when Utena duels against Juri and Ruka. It showed Shiori standing in front of the stage where the Shadow Girls usually play. I'm wondering, what's your take of this? Because I'm not thinking of anything really good.

This is kind of a weak answer, but I always thought it was to sort of compare Shiori to a shadow player. 

(Relating to Shiori's part in the Duel) : Ikuhara mentioned that (so totally unquote) that while they tell, affect or are parts of the story, they are never seen by the audience, only their shadows are.  Shiori is not actually in the duel that Juri fights with Utena, but she is an important part of it, i.e- a player.  She is in Juri's mind the whole time, so while Juri doesn't actually see Shiori in the literal sense, because she is thinking of her she is still seeing her 'shadow'.

(Relating to Juri and Shiori's relationship) : Like Razarra pointed out in her made-of-win analysis, shadows play an important role in symbolizing Juri and Shiori's relationship. 

-I can't exactly remember if Shiori is actually standing in the shadow or in the light in that scene though.-

It may also represent that since Shiori's body is actually shown against the stage, and not her shadow, that she is starting to show the world her true self, her actual self, instead of her shadow self.  Or maybe it represents how Juri is finally starting to see Shiori, not as some simple innocent she needs to protect, but as a complicated individual plagued by self-doubt and a complicated jealousy and masochistic streak.  Juri is finally realizing what Ruka has been trying to teach her (I think), that Shiori is more than just the sum of Juri's feelings for her, that Shiori is a human being in herself, with her wants, pains and flaws.

I feel so bad for Shiori, she's misunderstood by the girl who loves her most.

I know, right? Why is it that everyone hates Shiori so much? She only does those kinds of things because she thinks Juri looks down on her, which in truth she does. Juri tries to protect her without trying to understand her, even though she knows that Shiori hurts her. It's kind of like with Utena and Anthy. Shiori knows how Juri looks at her and that makes her mad. I mean, look at Kozue. She acts cruel and like a total bitch to make sure Miki pays attention to her. She wants complete control over everything Miki does, to make sure she is all he thinks about. Much like Ruka used Shiori in order to make Juri open her eyes, like OnlyInThisLight mentioned, one could view Miki's last duel as Kozue's next attempt at keeping Miki hers. She was the one who convinced Miki to duel, she was his Rose Bride, and she taunted him with Anthy which, in my viewpoint, symbolized that even his want for Anthy was driven by her actions. She created that want by creating that void that he needed to fill. Anything and everything that Miki is or wants, Kozue either wants to herself or was responsible for. The manga Kozue was so much more easier to like then anime Kozue. Compared to Kozue, Shiori's actions aren't nearly as cruel. Shiori is fueled by jealousy and inner pain, while Kozue is fueled by cruelness and an attachment that Miki needs to get out of before it turns into either Lolita, Fatal Attraction, or any of those Lifetime movies.

Did I just spin off into a Kozue rant when everyone was discussing Shiori? Sorry.

I don't know if I got this right, but she barely bothers to understand how Shiori truly feels. She told Shiori to stay away from Ruka, that he'd probably hurt her. She couldn't see she was just doing it to make Juri jealous. But if am wrong, please correct me. I guess it just means I have to go over my Utena episodes.

XHelios6 wrote:

I don't know if I got this right, but she barely bothers to understand how Shiori truly feels. She told Shiori to stay away from Ruka, that he'd probably hurt her. She couldn't see she was just doing it to make Juri jealous.

I disagree with this. I think Shiori wanted Ruka for her own reasons that had nothing at all to do with Juri. Your theory has both Ruka and Shiori both with the other simply to get at Juri. I'm not a fan of Shiori, but I'm pretty sure she's the victim in the Ruka relationship and not the antagonist.

Shiori isn't doing it to make Juri jealous - if her feelings for Ruka have anything to do with Juri it's likely she's trying to step out of Juri's shadow by hooking up with Ruka the same way Wakaba was trying to hook up with Saionji. Even then I'm unconvinced that Shiori was doing anything more than going for a boy she found attractive and, by all appearances, was also attracted to her. 

I don't know if that makes Juri more or less understanding of Shiori. I'd argue that Juri knows, or at least suspects, that Shiori genuinely loves or is attracted to Ruka and that makes everything harder for Juri. I don't think Juri misunderstands Shiori. She may not handle her problems with Shiori properly, but she doesn't misunderstand her.

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

One last question.....which probably has nothing to do with symbolism.....(and I may be remembering incorrectly) but why is never winter at Ohtori?  I'm not altogether sure how long Utena stays at Ohtori, or whether or not it's location affects the climate so........yeah I'm probably going to have 'stupid' labled across my face for asking this when I find out the obvious answer.

I'd say that Ohtori perpetually being in a spring/summer season is a reference to the timelessness of the school and the way it keeps people from aging so long as they remain there. As Akio tells Tokiko, those who remain at Ohtori (or "gardens known as schools" I think he says) can never grow into adults. When equating the seasons of a year with the life of a person, winter is usually depicted as the final stage, that of old age. Late spring crossing to early summer is therefore the period of adolescents, the time when children reach the barrier they must cross to become adults.

Ah! Thank you guys very much!

dabouse1 wrote:

Baka Kakumei Reanna wrote:

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Hmm, just tossing this out there.  Does anyone think there is any symbolism in Chuchu's attire resembling Akio's?

And the meaning behind the spinning white rose when Saionji and Touga charge Utena with the motorcyle in her next-to-last duel?  The nearest I can figure is that it symbolized conflicting feelings of Touga fighting Utena.  But I definetly think there is something more to it.

It's almost as big a mystery to me as why Saionji wears his hair up during Kendo but not when he duels.    Maybe he and Touga would have faired better against Utena if they didn't have their bangs in their eyes .

One last question.....which probably has nothing to do with symbolism.....(and I may be remembering incorrectly) but why is never winter at Ohtori?  I'm not altogether sure how long Utena stays at Ohtori, or whether or not it's location affects the climate so........yeah I'm probably going to have 'stupid' labled across my face for asking this when I find out the obvious answer.

Chuchu and Akio: I've thought about this a lot, and I haven't come up with anything beyond the fact that they're two of the more omniscient characters in the series who seem to understand what's going on. Perhaps Chuchu's trying to imitate Akio for Anthy's sake.

Oh, I just had another of my weird ideas. Chuchu, wearing that tie and earring, makes me think of Akio AS a monkey. Stay with me, stay with me. Go from there to the monkey-catching-robot shadow plays. We've already established that, at least the first time, the robot represents Mikage.

I can see all you guys facepalming right now. But you guys take all the good ideas, so I have to come up with the weird ones. XD

Nonono, I think that's a great interpretation! Except! if Mikage=Robot and Akio=Monkey, then why would Mikage be trying to "catch" Akio?   But I do think that if Akio=monkey, it could be that it's a mockery of his playing the prince. Still, I like the ChuChu's pretending for Anthy better.

As for the motorcycle, my first thought was that Touga and Saiounji have made up (or are making up) for the high tensions they had because of Akio, and now that they're starting to see what AKio is really doing, they want to do something about it. And what better way than teamwork? And Saiounji was Touga's Rose Groom during that duel, so that could also  be why he's the one driving while Touga tried to stick the sword into Utena's rose.

Though the other thing in that episode was the cars coming at Utena and Anthy. I would say that it means Utena is willing to stand against anything that tries to hurt Anthy, but given the situation their friendship is in by that episode (UtenaxAkioxAnthy sortofthing), I'm not so sure. And smack in the middle of all thos cars is Touga and Saiounji, on the magic motorbike. Anyone have an interpretation for this?

As for Saiounji's hair...I always thought it was just a kendo-thing.

Maybe Dios was the monkey-catching robot. :XD

As for the white rose, I think it's important to note that the white rose has been associated with BOTH Touga and Utena, so it could easily represent a conflict for the both of them. I think the motorbike with the side-thingy could be interpreted three ways that I could think of:

1) With a motorcycle with a sidecar, you have one person who's necessarily "tacked on." Even though you have a similar situation with a car, apart from the fact that one is steering, the seats themselves are the same. With the motorcycle, you have the sidecar which is just a meaningless add-on to the main motorcycle and largely superfluous. The relationship represented by the motorcycle is less equal.

2) The opposite of the point above. The motorcycle is, by nature, a one seater, and by adding a seat for someone else, it indicates a meaningful relationship with a sort of dependence.

3) Totally related to the other two but still relying on a comparison to the car, it's simply an extension of the car-as-a-phallic-symbol theme. The motorcycle is smaller and less powerful, and so represents a lack in virility in comparison to Akio.

Phew. Thoughs, anyone?