This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top02-16-2010 04:03:59 PM

spoon-san
Someday Shiner
Registered: 03-18-2009
Posts: 3423

Ohtori is a state of mind

From the interview posted by Alexa on this thread (it is the first image):

Saito on Ohtori wrote:

I finally realized that it was a projection of a world that is, in fact, inside the characters' minds, and that's what Mr. Ikuhara wanted all along.

While this brings to mind Serial Experiments Lain (dealing with a collective consciousness), this really goes back to the Jungian construct of a collective/universal conscious where symbols act as metaphors to express universal concepts.

But that, aside, how does this work?  Meaning, if the story is all taking place inside the minds of the characters, how could this be?  Is it a dream?  Is what the viewer sees just an allegory to explain something wholly psychological going on?  And then who are the characters, really, if they could be projecting themselves into this world via a united consciousness and/or imagination? 

Basically, how would you interpret this quote? 

This opens up a door to possibilities, such as characters each representing collective entities of individuals, each being archetypes in themselves where individuals and concepts fall into.  Or maybe they are all parts of a single entity.  I think the possibilities are endless and I suppose this is why Ikuhara says so little about what is a canon interpretation.

But it brings back the concept that Ohtori is not a geographical location in the physical world.  More and more I think it has a lot to do with it being a universal state of mind where united delusions and ideals shape the campus via the Chairman's projector.  And this makes even the duels, to me, to be a matter of dueling ideals (which I assume is not a unique viewer interpretation of the duels).

I realize my unabashed musings may have spawned what could be allocated to several threads already, but really, what do you make of it (putting my own ideas to the side)?

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#2 | Back to Top02-16-2010 04:47:23 PM

Alexa
Anthy Assailer
Registered: 12-13-2006
Posts: 74

Re: Ohtori is a state of mind

I think it's likely that Anthy and Dios are archetypes manifested by the collective belief of humanity (and are "siblings" not because they have the same parents, per se, but because they were both born of humanity's ideals).  This helps explain why they have special powers and why they appear to age in a non-linear fashion.  I think it's also possible the people's belief in these archetypes was so strong that somewhere along the line, the two developed a consciousness more akin to that of a human, and were then able to err, be harmed, and deviate from the endless cycles that the rest of the world expected them to follow.

As for what Ohtori is... I guess I always thought it was meant to be the "world of childhood."  An allegory for the state of mind that people leave behind when they become adults.  (My thoughts on this aspect are fuzzier, though.)

Last edited by Alexa (02-16-2010 08:25:38 PM)

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#3 | Back to Top02-16-2010 08:12:02 PM

spoon-san
Someday Shiner
Registered: 03-18-2009
Posts: 3423

Re: Ohtori is a state of mind

Alexa wrote:

As for what Ohtori is... I guess I always thought it was meant to be the "world of childhood."  An allegory for the state of mind that people leave behind when they become adults.  (My thoughts on this aspect are fuzzier, though.)

Actually, I find that very plausible.  Childhood memories, memories of the past, idealized conceptions of what adulthood means, clinging to fairy tales...all seem to be a common theme with all of those within Ohtori's gates.  Even the concept of Eternity...to freeze a memory in time and relive it, to never move past that and never truly reach adult hood (especially being stuck in the past which is universal for the cast) is just a state of mind.  Until they can let go of that state of mind and see past their own delusions (as in the cases of Mikage, Anthy, and Utena), they cannot leave Ohtori.  It even makes me think of the phoenix allegory in its name...the main cast wants to resurrect something that was in the past and more or less died there via eternity, already being different people than they were in that past...and needing to die to who they are in the present in order to revive in the outside world, somewhat like going through the stages of child to adolescent to adult. 

I dunno, but I feel like something really obvious just clicked in my mind.  You have odd powers.

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#4 | Back to Top02-16-2010 11:00:16 PM

Alexa
Anthy Assailer
Registered: 12-13-2006
Posts: 74

Re: Ohtori is a state of mind

spoon-san wrote:

Even the concept of Eternity...to freeze a memory in time and relive it, to never move past that and never truly reach adult hood (especially being stuck in the past which is universal for the cast) is just a state of mind.  Until they can let go of that state of mind and see past their own delusions (as in the cases of Mikage, Anthy, and Utena), they cannot leave Ohtori.

Described that way, it sounds like it could also be an allegory for some of the ideas in the religions of Indian subcontinent.  Which seems apt, given Akio and Anthy's "Indian" character design.  Many traditions of Buddhism, Hinduism, Yoga philosophy, Sikhism, Jainism, etc., have similar or interconnected ideas about the nature of reality: life and what we consider to be reality is an illusion (maya) --> life, for the unenlightened = suffering --> all suffering is the result of craving/clinging (to the way we want things to be, or think they "should" be) --> enlightenment, and the release from suffering, can be achieved by letting go of your attachments.

As it relates to SKU, the "clinging" would be to the concept of "eternity," or the unwillingness to let go of something in your past.  Buddhism likes to emphasize the idea that the only thing constant in the universe is change, and so the desire to keep anything in your life from changing, no matter what it is, would be a one-way ticket to suffering.

(If you want to see most of these ideas clearly used in modern, mainstream storytelling, see the first installment of The Matrix.)

Using this analogy... Ohtori is the world of illusion, and what keeps the students suffering in their world of illusion is their inability (or refusal) to let go of their attachments.  And I think some of the attachments SKU stresses the most are the archetypes and traditional gender roles that society tends to shoehorn people into.  Which brings us back to the idea of Anthy and Akio as archetypes who weren't able to sustain in their intended roles.



I could probably keep daisy-chaining concepts together like this until I passed out.  Maybe I'm digging too hard and seeing connections where there really are none.  But it's interesting to think about.

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#5 | Back to Top02-17-2010 12:16:48 AM

minervana
High Tripper
Registered: 10-10-2009
Posts: 246

Re: Ohtori is a state of mind

Alexa wrote:

As for what Ohtori is... I guess I always thought it was meant to be the "world of childhood."  An allegory for the state of mind that people leave behind when they become adults.  (My thoughts on this aspect are fuzzier, though.)

I like this idea. It's a bit different from how I saw it, though. I always thought Ohtori was more like the graveyard of childhood, i.e., the state of mind you're in when your childhood is gone but you're not yet an adult. Adolescence is the process of leaving this world and going into the adult world; but some people would rather live forever in this world on the off chance that their childhood will come back (which of course it won't). Which is ironic, because a state of transition then becomes static and petrified.

I've used Ohtori Academy a couple times in essays as a synonym for perpetual adolescence.

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#6 | Back to Top02-17-2010 12:31:37 AM

Anthiena
Egghead
From: ...the space between your ears
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1108

Re: Ohtori is a state of mind

Ohtori is definitely one of those soft places, where dream and reality meet. Is it so ridiculous to see a kangaroo in Japan in a dream? Or a girl with a pet monkey? Or swords in numbers beyond comprehension? Dreams are a place where collective conscience may meet. A legion of sleeping adolescents, dreaming of the day they were little and the day they fly... and yet afraid of their wings.


(Can you tell it's 1:30 am for me? lol)


I stopped seeking to be sought after. That wasn't being true to myself.
I want to become someone who can exercise power. I want to become a prince. - Ikuni

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#7 | Back to Top02-17-2010 12:55:41 AM

Alexa
Anthy Assailer
Registered: 12-13-2006
Posts: 74

Re: Ohtori is a state of mind

minervana wrote:

I like this idea. It's a bit different from how I saw it, though. I always thought Ohtori was more like the graveyard of childhood, i.e., the state of mind you're in when your childhood is gone but you're not yet an adult. Adolescence is the process of leaving this world and going into the adult world; but some people would rather live forever in this world on the off chance that their childhood will come back (which of course it won't). Which is ironic, because a state of transition then becomes static and petrified.

I've used Ohtori Academy a couple times in essays as a synonym for perpetual adolescence.

Yeah, that's probably a better way of putting it.  Ohtori is not a completely "childish" world.  The students are aware that there are many things that separate children from adults, and in many cases they may even know what those differences are (though that doesn't mean they understand them).  And that would suggest that the students aren't trapped in Ohtori... at least not for reasons beyond their control.  Anyone can leave Ohtori if they're willing to let go.

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#8 | Back to Top02-17-2010 01:10:36 AM

Cyrias
Tenjou Tilter
From: Exploring the psyche
Registered: 10-04-2009
Posts: 83

Re: Ohtori is a state of mind

I was having the same thought (so great minds do think alike school-eng101) except mine was more along the ideas of this being a 'dream apocalypse' as defined by Tvtropes. I first thought that maybe Utena's dream of being a prince became reality thanks to Akio, and the whole thing was engineered by Akio so that Utena doesn't realise/blinded to the truth (nature) of the dream... Then after Utena 'awakens' from the dream, the whole tower falls apart because she awoke to the truth and she disappears from the dream world (and the students were part of Utena's dream) emot-confused.

Or maybe the movie was set in the dream world??

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M … Apocalypse


In lumine tuo, videbimus amor ('In your light, we shall love') Slippy slippery mambo~ everyone at Ohtori is in some kind of spiritual land, created by Goddess Anthy and her brother Akio?!

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#9 | Back to Top02-18-2010 05:44:26 AM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
Website

Re: Ohtori is a state of mind

To quote from my own fanfic, Thorns Wither (sorry it's necessary for my point! emot-redface):

(Utena talks first, then Anthy who speaks in first person)
“We’re not at Ohtori,” she murmured. “I just don’t understand…how these crazy things can happen when we’re not there anymore.”

“We’re not at Ohtori,” I agreed, “but Ohtori is not really a place.”

“Y…you mean…” She paused, hand shifting to run lightly down my arm. “Your skin’s like ice,” she hissed, pulling me more fully on top of her and wrapping her arms around me. “It’s a person,” she guessed and I was surprised at her perceptiveness.

“Yes,” I said.

“But I gave him Dios,” she said stubbornly. “And it can’t be Dios.”

“I’m Ohtori too,” I said and my voice was odd to my own ears.

Utena gasped. Then her arms tightened around me so much I couldn’t breathe.

“Anthy…” she said harshly, brokenly. “Don’t say that…”

My theory (similar to a lot of what we're discussing here, yay) is that Ohtori is people, primarily Akio & Anthy, but anyone who's caught in the world between childhood and growing up. Adolescence of Utena, anyone? emot-tongue So it's not just a state of mind (although that is what it is)...it's a state of being (although a transient state hopefully), and more than a state of being, it's the people who are in that state of being.

Stepping out of Ohtori's gates is stepping into the real world, aka the revolution, aka growing up, aka maturity of thinking and love and letting go of the delusions and things that hold us down or keep us from going forward to the next stage of life (whatever that may be).

So "Ohtori Akio" IS Ohtori because he epitomizes the state of Ohtori. Anthy is Ohtori for as long as she helps him. And everybody else is Ohtori for as long as they are there, eternally dueling for something eternal.

God, I love SKU and our multiple SKU theories. etc-love

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#10 | Back to Top02-18-2010 04:12:09 PM

Carrie Asagiri
Saionji Slapper
From: Argentina
Registered: 02-14-2010
Posts: 27
Website

Re: Ohtori is a state of mind

Really interesting theories here and I'm agree with some of the posts. Before I watch the show, I read the manga and there Ohtori has a physical place in Japan, obviously the symbolism in the manga is pretty different from the anime. But while I was watching the show I went through a lot of theories and ideas about what Ohtori may be. First of all and I still think it that way, I see Ohtori like some kind of Neverland and Akio like some kind of perv and grown up Peter Pan emot-gonk Yeah, could be creepy the concept but even when Akio is an adult, he represents the most light and irresponsible part of the adulthood. Sometimes I think like a twisted and perv (I can't let out that word XD) version of Pied Piper of Hamelin. But I always thought that Ohtori wasn't a normal place. We can say that is like Matrix, sometimes reminds me to Haibane Renmei. Hell, in the last episode I even thought that everybody was dead and Ohtori was like some kind of purgatory where they wait till release from their sins/delusions or traumas, and the revolution was the freedom of the soul to be reincarnated. Sometimes I think that the events of the series are based on the reality but what we see is the interpretation of the characters, something similar to the last two episodes of Evangelion.

The whole adolescence is a duel in which we must buried our childhood in order to become into adults. In fact we must face duels in all whole life, but in the adolescence we fight the most difficult ones. L ike our first love, our first looses. In the teenage world, to broke up with a boyfriend/girlfriend is perceived like a tragedy and is like a duel, the same goes for the loose of a friendship or the loose of virginity. And when we face a duel moment like when we must accept someone's dead we use different defence mechanism to deal with the situation.

Last edited by Carrie Asagiri (02-18-2010 04:12:56 PM)

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