This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#26 | Back to Top10-28-2007 03:49:12 AM

Arki
Dark Whisperer
From: Croatia
Registered: 10-28-2006
Posts: 1123

Re: WTF. Shiori.

I like Shiori simply for the reason that Juri would be a completely dull and unfulfilled character without her. *coughmangacough* cool

reason 1:: I don't quite think people 'admire her for being mean'. Myself, I find her a fascinating character because it provides me insight behind her bad actions. People are not mean simply for being mean. Sometimes it's because of amusement, sometimes it's because of anger and sometimes it's because you're hurting. It's easy to point at Shiori and judge from our objective seat where we can say her actions are wrong. But feelings are not a rational thing and feelings make us do crazy things. It's interesting how people usually don't look for reasons behind good actions. Those exist, too. But they're not as fascinating as trying to 'justify', or better said, explain why is Shiori acting like a bitch. In a way, Shiori serves to relay the message that bad people have their reasons to be bad, as much as bad things can't ever be considered good.

reason 2:: As, perhaps, mentioned before, I don't know would a person do anything if it wasn't for feelings and emotions. Logic helps keep those feelings somewhat in control, but it doesn't erase them. I reply to this topic because I want to. But I think I'm going into a digression here. Whoops. d: A thing to consider is that Juri never really displayed being hurt by whatever Shiori did (not even after episode 17, but after that Shiori can conclude that whatever she has been doing has hurt Juri). When 'answering' to Shiori's letter in episode 7, Juri writes it in a positive and slightly formal way, trying to seem uninterested in the whole situation. It all stops when she comes to the part of feeling a bit envious, thus ending the letter she might have never sent. In episode 17, she doesn't act hurt, just completely uninterested and angry, in a sort of "I have better things to do than waste my time on schemers like you." Shiori did not know how to get Juri's attention back until she found out using herself would give the strongest response from Juri. *theomgfindinglocket*

Erm... *looks at her notes* ...Shiori idolizes Juri too much. If you've (purposely) hurt a person you practically consider perfect, you cannot help but feel inferior in any moment with that said person. You think to yourself: "That person is perfect and I can never deserve to be beside this person, because I will never be perfect with what I have done in the past." In a way, Shiori can't forgive herself (or so I see it), so she tries to somehow bring down Juri to her level, by hurting her and making her hate her. Hate is a feeling close in severity to Shiori's actions. And lastly...

reason 3:: I'd like to think that the difference between Ruka and Shiori isn't in their motives (they both wanted Juri, in a way), but because Juri didn't have any affections towards Ruka (at least not in the same intensity as towards Shiori). Thus, Ruka could help Juri in a way Shiori couldn't, because Shiori herself was the thing she needed to free Juri from.

My two cents turned into into a whole dollar. d: And just for the record, I'm more of a passive Shiori fan, myself.

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#27 | Back to Top10-28-2007 07:04:17 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Nietzsche wrote:

The familiarity of the superior always embitters, because it can never be returned.

I actually see many parallels between Shiori and Saionji. They both have a friend that they look up to and admire, and in both cases, the friend in question seems to be unable or unwilling to return their feelings. There are two major differences that seem to highlight their different responses to the situation. Saionji's pride is one of his defining characteristics, while Shiori doesn't seem to have much. And also, Touga and Juri are quite different themselves. Touga's promiscuity  is something that Saionji can hold in contempt, allowing him that tiny bit of revenge. But Juri is untouchable. She has no flaws at all, or at least, that's how it would seem to Shiori. Which can maybe help to explain Shiori's otherwise unforgivable homophobia. It's the closest thing to a flaw that she could find.

To me, Shiori seems to be lacking something fundamental as a character, some hook that would win me over. I don' know what that is, but...I think I'll call it stature. She seems to be fundamentally weak, and the strength that she does show is pretty opportunistic. What turns me off from her the most is not that she stole Juri's boyfriend out of spite, or even that she has a homophobic episode (doesn't last long anyway), but the byplay with Ruka's foil. She builds up this whole relationship in her mind with Ruka, when it's all founded on an obvious lie. Let me be frank here, though I know it won't make me any friends: Shiori attempted to exploit Ruka the same way that Ruka succeeded in exploiting Shiori. He may have succeeded in tricking her into sex, but she certainly tried to trick him into an emotional commitment, and that is every bit as wrong. I don't see either as acceptable, but Ruka does have the extenuating circumstance that it was for someone else. Sorry folks, but I don't see the emotional side of a relationship as purer or better than the physical side. Now when real people get into these situations, they're often redeemed by their fundamental humanity, which is something that I don't quite identify in Shiori. So what bothers me about Shiori is not her actions, Akio and Nemuro and Touga all do as bad or worse, to say nothing of Anthy, but Shiori seems more petty.

But let me be clear on this point: I do respect everyone's opinion, and the fact that this person or that person disagrees with me about Shiori does not annoy me. I don't see approval of Shiori as somehow invalid. I just don't really approve of her myself.


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#28 | Back to Top10-28-2007 07:42:59 AM

Pandora
Pathtracer
Registered: 04-05-2007
Posts: 351

Re: WTF. Shiori.

To be honest, I'm kind of on the fence about Shiori- same with Kozue, actually.

I mean, on one hand, she has a cruel, manipulative streak. She hurt Juri, whether on purpose or no. She wants to drag Juri down so she can feel better about her own self-esteem. That's not particularly friendly..!
But on the other hand, she's really just like any teenage girl- she needs to find her own place in the world and she's struggling to do so. And yes, she's kind of going about it the wrong way, but everyone makes mistakes, right?

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#29 | Back to Top10-28-2007 10:40:54 AM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Washington DC
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2096
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Oh, wow.. I hope this thread doesn't explode, like Shattered said. emot-frown

Uhm.. anyway.. discussing fictional characters..

I agree a little and disagree a little with your points. I don't exactly like Shiori, but I do find her to be a very interesting character to analyze, and an important character in the series in the plot. She, Juri, and Ruka all make an interesting and tragic story together.

I agree with some of what Maarika has said.. Shiori does have her reasons for her actions. However, they may not be very logical or good reasons, in Shiori's case. She seems to be more driven by her emotions, and she and Juri are FULL of misunderstandings.

I don't think Shiori would be considered a good role model, although I don't think all the Shiori fans claim she is. Shiori is pretty manipulative.. but compared to other characters, she really isn't that bad. Her manipulation is kindergarten level compared to characters like Anthy, Touga, Ruka, and Akio. She doesn't even know what she's doing when she is scheming to hurt Juri! (Consider: She took that guy, thinking Juri loved him, when really it was Shiori that Juri loved. And if she was intentionally trying to hurt Juri again by dating Ruka, whether consciously or not, she certainly played right into Ruka's hands instead. A real pro at manipulation would be aware of these things, at least somewhat. Shiori is fundamentally 'innocent' and naive, even if she is cruel. But this is part of their story's tragedy. They're all oblivious to what everyone else is really feeling.. Juri, Shiori, Ruka, that is.)

Anyway, what I meant to say, that is, is why do people treat Shiori like the ultimate evil when there are other characters who are so much worse? I'm not trying to justify what Shiori does, of course, or say that she is a good role model, but you would think that characters like Akio and Anthy would get more bashing. (I'm starting to agree with Maarika now about that Anthy bashing thread.. maybe we should make our own!) However, I do agree that it is really hard to paint Shiori in a positive light.. but who says we have to like characters who are all positive? It's SKU, after all. And my favourite character is Anthy..

Maybe people hate her a lot because she represents the everyday real-life cruel girl in high school? She's more 'normal' than the other manipulators of the story. It may be that people just don't like her petty behavior, but like Anthy, Akio, etc. more because they're more supernatural and less 'normal' or 'real' and more fantasy.

Argh, I don't know what I was getting at, please excuse me. I miss posting around here. emot-keke I hope no one gets too upset here, though!

Last edited by SleepDebtFairy (10-28-2007 10:41:16 AM)

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#30 | Back to Top10-28-2007 12:13:11 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: WTF. Shiori.

No, I'm not going to flip out over this. All I can really think about this is, "Ugh, more Shiori bashing?" It's just getting so repetitive that I'm sick of it. I just don't care anymore. I'm starting to wish that I didn't care about Shiori, but I'm more worried that if I do that I'll stop caring about SKU and eventually IRG as well. So, I might as well take a moment to write up my opinion and hope that I don't sound like a defensive bitch, which I probably will.

Dross wrote:

Reason 1: People hate Shiori because we like Juri because Juri is teh pretty and we like pretty things.

No, people don't generally like people who hurt someone for no actual reason. It doesn't matter who it is, if they're pretty or cool or not. And don't give me because was jealous of Juri and she couldn't handle her own feelings of inadequecy. Just because there is a tenuous motivation for the pain she caused someone who didn't deserve it, doesn't make her admirable. Just mean.

I know that you said not to, but I'm still going to bring up jealousy to explain why Shiori did what she did. I would never say that it's justified, I just think that hurting Juri like that is more of a "human" thing to do rather than "evil." People do horrible things because of jealousy, but that still doesn't make it right. Juri really didn't deserve to be hurt like that, but Shiori was desperate to do whatever she could to put herself of the same level as Juri.

Dross wrote:

Reason 2: One of the reasons so many seem to like Shiori is because they are able to identify with the part of themselves that wants to destroy someone who they perceive as "more special" than they are, or seem to be getting undue attention.

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, Juri's popularity wasn't merited. Not like she wasn't captain of the fencing team and one of the few members on the student council and Shiori wasn't accomplished in anything on her own.

Is it really that interesting to not just WANT to hurt someone as much as possible, but actually DO it. And again, for what reason?

Juri never hurt her. (Not intentionally anyway, and if Shiori had any sense of personal responsibility she wouldn't blame Juri for her own short comings. She would maybe find something to base her personality off of other than hate. It's like she thinks because she can't rise up in some way, she has to bring Juri down.)

I like Shiori because, to me, she is the most interesting and realisitic character. I can relate to her inferiority complex, but not her desire to destroy that which is better than her. She probably does want to bring Juri down with her. Shiori has a very screwed up mind. To some extent, she might even believe that Juri was trying to make her look bad. Does that mean Juri deserved it? No. But I also don't think that stealing that boy was solely done so that she could hurt her. She also did it so that they would be on the same level, which isn't quite the same as doing it out of hate.

As much I love Juri, she has her own moments of cruelty and sadism as well, but they're not directed towards Shiori. She looks very happy at the thought of Saionji abusing Anthy, Touga manipulating Nanami, as well as when Touga manipulated Utena into winning Anthy. Not to mention that she tends to handle her anger by hurting Anthy and Ruka. I just don't see why no one ever brings this up. emot-frown


I don't blame Shiori haters for hating Shiori, I just don't understand why they feel so passionately about it. Why in God's name should you care if we like Shiori? Would the world be a better place if everyone hated her? It's just sad how humanity feels such a strong need to express hatred. To me, saying, "I hate Shiori," is the same as saying, "I hate gays." Some of you may find it insulting for me to compare such a serious issue with something like that, but in the end, it all comes down to the fact that a vast majority of people hate something, and no matter how much I may want to, there's nothing I can do to change it. I can't change people's minds on anything, and I don't expect to be able to. I just have to accept the fact that not everyone will see things the way I do, and that hate is an emotion that is even more powerful than jealousy.

Believe whatever you believe. I just happen to believe that Shiori is an interesting character who doesn't deserve nearly as much hate as she tends to attract.

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#31 | Back to Top10-28-2007 12:21:16 PM

Jellineck
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Under your bed
Registered: 08-02-2007
Posts: 894

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Anyway, what I meant to say, that is, is why do people treat Shiori like the ultimate evil when there are other characters who are so much worse?

Which was my question exactly. I believe it was Yasha who gave me my favorite answer: a matter of skill. Touga and Akio approach manipulation like an art form, and they relish in it. Shiori isn't sadistic or talented enough to do with ease as they can, and that's not so much a part of her ability as a liar as her gender and status. Her attempts to be cruel come off as awkward in comparison, yet she is not sympathetic in failure either. As Yasha said, if you're going to be evil, you might as well enjoy it and do it well (I believe that was her phrasing). Then again, it's Shiori's combination of naivete and cruelty that I find more interesting that Touga's selfish mechanics.


"You said you would do anything for me, right Mamiya?" Mikage purred as he slithered close. "Yes that's right" Mamiya said with a rosey blush. Mikage's smile was evil and cinister as he reached into his pocket and pulled out a banana. "Eeny meeny myny moo. I wonder where my banana will go?" - The Forbidden Passions of Nemuro

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#32 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:04:21 PM

Frosty
Everyone's Best Friend
From: United States
Registered: 11-16-2006
Posts: 1269
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Show me a Shiori-hater, and I'll show you a Juri fan!!! I think Shiori haters stem from Juri lovers. I'm neither, just a happy medium.

Because really, like Tamago pointed out, within the context of the series, Shiori really doesn't do anything to be considered an evil bitch. All Shiori did was go out with a guy she thought Juri liked. That's not evil, it's normal. Lots of female friendships split because of one of them going out with the others boyfriend. That's old news! The only difference in Shiori's situation is that her friend happened to be secretly in love with her. That wasn't anything on Shiori's doing, that's all JURI adding the baggage.

In the movie, she's actually DOING what fans imagined she did in the series. Just like in the movie, Utena & Anthy do what fans imagined during the series - hah!


Just remember that the things you put into your head are there forever, he said. You might want to think about that. / You forget some things, don't you? / Yes. You forget what you want to remember and you remember what you want to forget.

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#33 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:20:10 PM

Princess<slash>Witch
Saionji Slapper
From: Philippines
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 22
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

I think most people don't like her because of the way she treats Juri, the way she wants Juri to suffer. She wanted to be above Juri, and despite all the things Juri did to her, she thought og nothing but ill of Juri, like the boy who had a crush on Juri at first (not Ruka). She only went after him because she thought Juri loves him, as to steal him away from her and hurt her.

I'm no Shiori hater, so I wouldn't really know. emot-keke


"What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger"

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#34 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:34:07 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2925

Re: WTF. Shiori.

I've deleted 2 posts now because I was trying to let this die quietly for once. emot-frown

I actually agree with Frosty. I'm completely neutral about this. I'm not a Juri fangirl, and I'm not a Shiori-hater.

But I will say this. Shiori is exactly the same as the other Black Rose Duelists. She's not the only one with an inferiority complex. That's the whole point of the Black Rose Arc, for the secondary characters to have their moment in the spotlight away from the shadow that they live in.

Kanae will never be as important to Akio as Anthy is.
Kozue takes a backseat(ha!) to Miki's obsession with his schoolwork, piano, and to an extent, Anthy.
Tsuwabuki is just a servant to Nanami, he'll never hold the place in her heart that Touga does.
Keiko is an ordinary girl in a sea of other ordinary girls, but the other ordinary girls have already gotten into Touga's pants.
Then there's poor Wakaba, she gets screwed twice. Wakaba is basically Utena's sidekick....or was until Anthy came along. And then it gets worse when Saionji painted that gold leaf and Anthy got it, after all she did for him. At least she gets Tatsuya.

Speaking of Tatsuya, look at him. He's behaving the way the other Black Rose Duelists should have. That's why Mikage didn't want him. Everyone else gave in to their narcissism and self-loathing, and he didn't. On top of that, he told Wakaba how he felt about her instead of letting it get all bottled up inside and twisting his world around. I think Tatsuya was Ikuhara's way of saying, "This is what they were supposed to do...but they didn't."

So can we be done with this now, please for the love of Chu Chu? emot-frown


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#35 | Back to Top10-28-2007 03:59:58 PM

NajiMinkin
Hacker Ringleader
From: The Incredible Edible Egg
Registered: 06-23-2007
Posts: 2537

Re: WTF. Shiori.

I love Juri and Shiori.

They are spectacular characters, though both suck at being people, and draw sympathy from me.

That's really all I can do to justify my affections.

Raven, darling, not the best conclusion there. emot-gonk We've got some monkey haters in our midst!


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#36 | Back to Top10-28-2007 04:35:53 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

I'm probably not going to elaborate on this, since I have in so many other threads, and pretty much everyone has gotten all of my Shiori-opinions that they care for. emot-gonk

I'll say that I agree with Raven on the point that Shiori is the same as the other duelists. Not even just the Black Rose ones-- the Student Council, too. Everyone fights for selfish reasons, because they don't have the world they want. They fight for other people, but to a greater degree for themselves. I think it goes without saying that Shiori gets a lot more criticism for what she does than the others do, and while I know the situation is not a matter of fairness... I still don't think it's fair. emot-frown

But I'd like to think that my time at this forum has helped me mature from a violent, slobbering Shiori fan to a peaceful, slobbering Shiori fan. You love Shiori and think she's the greatest thing to come from anime? You absolutely hate her guts and want to run her through a wood chipper? You really just don't care one way or the other? It's all okay. It's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I've always believed that, but I also used to believe that it was my right to defend Shiori and try to force people to understand her, and to give her sympathy, if nothing else. But it isn't my right. So, however you feel about Shiori, it's wonderful. emot-smile Just, for future reference, you might want to pick a sliiiiightly less controversial way of stating your opinion, especially since the character of Shiori has already proved to be a sore spot for many on this forum. Forgive me if that was crossing over my boundaries, I'm not saying this to be rude, I just don't want anything negative on this lovely forum. emot-smile I've already made a mess of several threads with my poor choice of words. emot-gonk


Edit: Typo.

Last edited by dollface (10-28-2007 04:37:51 PM)


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#37 | Back to Top10-28-2007 05:24:05 PM

mazoboom
The Boom King
From: New Orleans
Registered: 09-08-2007
Posts: 450
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Razara wrote:

I don't blame Shiori haters for hating Shiori, I just don't understand why they feel so passionately about it.

I think that's a bit unfair.  Why should one extreme emotion over a character be "better" than another extreme emotion?  I think part of the reason why there are so many Shiori threads is that people are trying to figure out why the people who love Shiori love her, not to say that they are wrong.  I mean, the ones who love her are allowed to feel passionate, why not the ones who don't?  I will admit that it is unfair that people idolize Touga and Akio who are just as "mean," but I think that "injustice" is why people tend to defend Shiori more passionately which leads to people attacking Shiori more passionately.


(I should say that I have no opinion on Shiori either way, except that she's as vital to character-motivations as every other character.)

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#38 | Back to Top10-28-2007 05:41:33 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: WTF. Shiori.

I don't think that I worded that properly. What I meant was that I don't see why people have to passionately express their hatred, and this was not directed at members of the forum. This was directed at the people in different parts of the internet that feel the need to write fanfictions and end it with comments like "Does everyone hate Shiori now?" or who draw pictures of her as a devil or of her being killed. This forum is the only place that I have ever seen anyone defend her passionately, which implies that the rest of the people on the internet who attack her passionately are doing it out of their own feelings of hatred.

You can never necessarily say that one strong emotion is better than the other, but when has expressing hatred ever been a good thing? Whenever hatred is expressed, then it is inevitable that someone who supports what that person hates will take offense to this.

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#39 | Back to Top10-28-2007 05:49:20 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

So is this a thread asking why people like Shiori based on people constantly defending her from still other people condemning her?

I'm not sure how to respond to this thread because I'm not sure what its purpose is.

Dross wrote:

I wash my hands, I said my piece. I don't want to battle anyone. No one is gonna change their minds, I get that, but it just seemed like a little balance was needed.

If that's it, then there's really no reason to continue. (Though there's never going to be 'balance' for the like/dislike of any character in, generally, any work of fiction ever.)

At this point it seems pretty weird to me how much Shiori comes up. It's as if 'the fandom' has made peace with every other character in the series and agrees to disagree on any points of contention except when it comes to Shiori. "Nanami killed a kitten!!!1" But no one a) bashes her nor b) zealously defends her (as a character, not her actions themselves.) And generally speaking no one at IRG bashes Shiori except in response to those who defend her.

It's all just strange to me. Why this one character? A secondary character who appears in five(?) episodes?


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#40 | Back to Top10-28-2007 05:55:30 PM

mazoboom
The Boom King
From: New Orleans
Registered: 09-08-2007
Posts: 450
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Razara wrote:

This was directed at the people in different parts of the internet that feel the need to write fanfictions and end it with comments like "Does everyone hate Shiori now?" or who draw pictures of her as a devil or of her being killed.

Wow, I must admit ignorance to that particular bit of action.  I generally avoid fandom (that isn't filled with smart people like here) and fanfiction.

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#41 | Back to Top10-28-2007 07:16:10 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 589

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Dross wrote:

Shiori was a sadomasachist and a sociopath. And she had, in my opinion, no clear, actual reason for it.

I just don't understand the reasons for Shiori love.

Well, even Ikuhara wants us to hate Shiori. He turned her into the Ultimate Evil in the movie.

But she is in many ways the most complex and most human of all the characters, excepting perhaps Anthy. I see her as partially an Anthy stand-in, a substitute witch. In both cases it's legitimate to question how and why they ended up as witches; and what their own personal responsibility is for that and how much they are being made into witches to let others off the hook.

I believe the very first thread on this forum was about Shiori, and virtually every thread leads to her sooner or later. Maybe it's because she looks so cute holding that yellow rose.

Last edited by brian (10-28-2007 07:19:05 PM)

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#42 | Back to Top10-28-2007 09:28:02 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

I'm not even going to get into the Shiori discussion; I explained myself once and that was enough.

What I AM going to do, however, is explain to you all what I see happening over this ridiculous business, and hopefully you all will see why things are going the way they're going. I'm not bitching at anyone, and I'm not trying to say anyone should do anything different. This is just something to think about.

Maarika wrote:

Why don't I ever come across threads where Anthy is being bashed especially because she was a much horrible person than Shiori?

This one is simple, short, and sweet. Shiori gets 'bashed' because she has people defending her.

Don't believe me?

How many times have I said that Touga's a complete asstacular bastard? How many times has Gio said that Akio's disgustingly base and immoral? How many times have people pretty much just taken big steaming dumps all over the other characters? Most people on here are pretty well familiar with the flaws of the characters they like, don't mind a little fun being poked at them, and don't get too worked up about it either way if someone doesn't like them.

Shiori, not so much. We all love the Shiori fans. We all think they're intelligent, insightful, and even if I'm just working from my own personal standpoint, I sometimes feel upset with myself because I want to spend time with and get to know them outside the forums and I just can't do it. But the constant defense that never happens with any other character causes people to talk about it more often. It's like after you've gotten a tooth pulled-- you can feel the sore spot, and you just can't help but go back and poke at it and irritate it, even if you don't want it to hurt. It's compulsive, and a part of human nature, to prod at something so heavily defended.

No one bashes Anthy because there's no reason to. We all know she's a gigantic bitch, and even people who adore her are just fine with people bashing her. Shiori is constantly defended. This means that even negative opinions of her, whether rational or not, are being treated as 'bashing'. This also means that anyone who doesn't want to start an argument has to avoid mentioning her or only agree with her defenders.

Razara wrote:

All I can really think about this is, "Ugh, more Shiori bashing?" It's just getting so repetitive that I'm sick of it. I just don't care anymore. I'm starting to wish that I didn't care about Shiori, but I'm more worried that if I do that I'll stop caring about SKU and eventually IRG as well.

Razara, first of all, I'd like to point out that when you came to this forum, you already had the idea that people here were going to be bashing Shiori and you were defending her against it regardless of what was actually being done. I'm not sure why you act like we are attacking her so often, because the worst I've seen people do here is give reasoned arguments for why they think Shiori is a jerk. You've defended against reasoned arguments, and you've defended against people's opinions and gut reactions, but if you've ever defended against the 'Shiori is the goat of satan' crowd, I don't recall it. We just plain don't have people like that here. But it seems like if you say 'I don't like Shiori' on here, you get a reaction like you've just said 'Shiori rapes babies'.

Please bear in mind all that I've said above, too, because that affects this more than anything else. With those two things in mind, can you see how this is happening?

Razara wrote:

I don't blame Shiori haters for hating Shiori, I just don't understand why they feel so passionately about it.

I have not seen any passionate hate here unless it was in the Angst/Gripes threads, or in various scattered outbursts in the forums. I also have to say that I don't recall it ever being directed at any particular character at all except for Movie Akio. That's Gio's fault and she knows I think it's stupid but not unjustified in her case.

Personally, I don't like her. I feel no passion whatsoever about this, and have at times forgotten she's a character in the show at all. I could go so far as to say that I hate her, because I hate that type of person in real life. But it doesn't matter to me, and I probably would have forgotten all about it by now if it didn't keep getting brought up and defended and belabored until you have to seriously consider your stance on this one character if you intend to say anything at all about that particular plot arc.

Why does it seem passionate? Well, because it happens so often. Why does it happen so often? Well, because whenever Shiori gets 'bashed', Shiori gets defended, singling her out from the other characters, who basically get the same sort of treatment but no one cares because no one is getting upset or hurt over it. Should we be treating this one character any differently? Is that the right thing to do?

...also, who is this vast majority of haters? You can pm me a list if you want. And yes, I'm serious; if you're feeling that persecuted, tell me who is doing it. You know I care about you more than any character, and I want to make sure you're comfortable. But you seem to feel victimized. What can I do to help?

Raven Nightshade wrote:

So can we be done with this now, please for the love of Chu Chu?

Unfortunately, this is going to keep on happening and upsetting everyone so long as it keeps on getting set off this way.

Someone says something you don't agree with. You leap in to defend against a perceived insult to your favorite character. That person tries to explain their point of view. You explain yours. The person you've explained to concedes that you've made a few good points, and eventually the discussion ends. That other person then either a) now agrees, b) doesn't talk about it again because they don't want the hassle, or c) brings it up again because while you've made good points, you haven't changed their mind, and they want to discuss it. And when they do, the cycle repeats itself all over again.


Just for emphasis, so long as that cycle keeps on continuing, this discussion, the 'bashing', the rest of it, is not going to end.

So what are we going to do about it?

dollface wrote:

Stuff.

And I think this part is my fault, for jumping on people when it happened before. No, I don't like it when people feel like this. No, I don't want discussion to end because no one is willing to share a point of view. I think what dollface has said is sensible, but I basically stomped her ass in the past over this issue because I'm a gigantic bitch like that. So... is this how we need to treat this issue? Believe me, I'd love to see the problem stop right at its source-- people being willing to accept other ideas without wrestling with them or poking at them, not to agree, but not to get all fired up about it and just... be sensible and comfortable and safe in the fact that no one here wants to be insulting or mean, but just wants to talk about things. But even though it seems to work fine everywhere else on the forums, it doesn't seem to work here. So what do we do? Anything? Nothing?

brian wrote:

I believe the very first thread on this forum was about Shiori, and virtually every thread leads to her sooner or later.

...proof that I'm not a maniac. Anyone got any ideas on this one? I don't want to majorly derail this thread, but I'd like you guys to think about it, even if you don't say anything. It's kind of a non-issue for me, because once the uproar is done, I'm going to go on ignoring the fact that SKU has more than three characters. But what can we do? What's possible? What's going to fix it, or at least help? This has been a longstanding issue. Why? And why is it still so upsetting?



Fake Edit: And yes, little mistress, I know you don't mean we're ravening bastards here. My points, unfortunately, still stand.


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#43 | Back to Top10-29-2007 08:48:32 AM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: WTF. Shiori.

As I explained to Mazoboom, I wasn't referring to people on this forum. When I looked at this thread and was annoyed to see more Shiori bashing, I meant that as a general thing. I know that none of you have been bashing Shiori, and I can't post my views on her without seeming defensive. Half the time that I post my opinion these days, it's because people expect me to by saying, "lol, I know that someone can convince you otherwise." I've said this a million times, but I don't care if you guys dislike Shiori. Yes, I was getting defensive in this thread, because for once, I had a valid reason to defend her.

My point was to show that though I still don't understand why there are so many people out there (who don't post on IRG) that express their hatred of her so frequently, I just don't care. I'm sick of the fact that this thread alone has made me cry three times because every seemed to know that something like this would happen, I'm sick of Shiori, and I'm sick of everything.

Last edited by Razara (10-29-2007 08:51:55 AM)

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#44 | Back to Top10-29-2007 10:17:12 AM

Frosty
Everyone's Best Friend
From: United States
Registered: 11-16-2006
Posts: 1269
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

Shiori WTF, could have easily been titled "Shiori Fans, WTF?" The way this discussion was phrased, it didn't even seem to be about Shiori, it was about her fans reasoning for respecting her.

So an idea, like Yasha said, she & Gio loudly assert the faults of Touga & Akio, find humor in them, they like those characters with all those parts of their personalities, even the faults. I guess the question would be, is Shiori liked despite her faults, or because of her faults? And if her faults are admired because you can identify with this or that aspect, then it should be fine to joke around about those things. But if there is a fault that the fans feel have been attributed wrongly, then that's a subject for debate.

And yeah, it could be interesting to politely ask people why they respect __X__ trait in fiction; a trait which would usually be considered awful in real life, but if you respect it in SKU, does it not carry over into your real life wants/loves or does it stop when you shut off the show? Not in a rude manner but an inquisitive one, I've never stopped asking Gio about Akio love. Haha! But regardless of anyone's opinion, whether they like evil villains, or like stupid hero, or anything in between, it should never be assumed that we as people have the shortcomings of the characters we like. Sometimes we do! Sometimes we don't! But sociopath is a strong word to prove, in the case of a character, and even stronger to throw out to blanket fans.

Last edited by Frosty (10-29-2007 10:28:26 AM)


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#45 | Back to Top10-29-2007 11:51:37 AM

Princess<slash>Witch
Saionji Slapper
From: Philippines
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 22
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

There is only one thing I can say.

Shiori-fans adore/love her and have vast knowledge about her because they can relate to her. Somehow, she is like them in a way, I mean why else would any human be attach to something, right?

Like why am I attached to Anthy? It's that simple.


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#46 | Back to Top10-29-2007 02:09:30 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

She's definitely not a sociopath.  She lacks any identifiable sociopathic trait.

I never viewed Shiori's intro episode as saying that she stole a boy TO hurt Juri.  At most, she convinced herself she liked a boy and set herself to get him out of a SUBCONSCIOUS desire to hurt Juri.  But also out of what Shiori consciously felt was a genuine crush on said boy.  And out of a desire to prove herself--if she'd just given up because she's not as good as Juri, that would have been pretty self-defeating.

Nothing Shiori did in "stealing" a boy Juri didn't care about actually hurt Juri.  Except that in going away from Ohtori, she unwittingly stole HERSELF from Juri.  She made it obvious to Juri that Juri's feelings for her were doomed.  Juri's the one that never said anything, the one that wallowed in her misery, and the one who treated her supposed best friend with cold indifference when she returned to school.  Shiori didn't know what was actually going on and hurt Juri more gravely than Shiori could have realized -- all unintentionally.  (Cruelly innocent)

I'm not a big fan of Shiori.  But she is definitely a sympathetic character--not likable necessarily, but certainly sympathetic to anyone on who has ever been on either side of a similar situation.  It sucks to live in a friend's shadow.

But I'm gonna say that as a fan obsessed with Anthy, I don't view Anthy as a "bitch" per se.  But I see no reason to argue the point.  My personal interpretations are, well, personal... and don't have to be shared by everyone.


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#47 | Back to Top10-29-2007 06:45:03 PM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

She's definitely not a sociopath.  She lacks any identifiable sociopathic trait.

I never viewed Shiori's intro episode as saying that she stole a boy TO hurt Juri.  At most, she convinced herself she liked a boy and set herself to get him out of a SUBCONSCIOUS desire to hurt Juri.  But also out of what Shiori consciously felt was a genuine crush on said boy.  And out of a desire to prove herself--if she'd just given up because she's not as good as Juri, that would have been pretty self-defeating.

Nothing Shiori did in "stealing" a boy Juri didn't care about actually hurt Juri.  Except that in going away from Ohtori, she unwittingly stole HERSELF from Juri.  She made it obvious to Juri that Juri's feelings for her were doomed.  Juri's the one that never said anything, the one that wallowed in her misery, and the one who treated her supposed best friend with cold indifference when she returned to school.  Shiori didn't know what was actually going on and hurt Juri more gravely than Shiori could have realized -- all unintentionally.  (Cruelly innocent)

Doesn't a good portion of Shiori's narration in the Black Rose Saga admit just that...?

Shiori: I was jealous of her because of that.
Shiori: That's it.
Shiori: I loved him because I wanted to steal something dear to her.

and

Shiori: Juri-san was so kind to me.
Shiori: But I thought she was kind to me because she looked down on me,
Shiori: and that she had pity on me for being plain and useless.
Shiori: That's pathetic!
Shiori: So I wanted to change my relationship with Juri-san.
Shiori: But what I did with him made me more miserable than before.
Shiori: I should have wanted it for myself!

I was under the impression she did it specifically to hurt Juri and/or try to escape Juri's shadow, and later regretted not doing it for herself, instead of doing it to wound her friend.


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#48 | Back to Top10-29-2007 07:53:57 PM

Almaser
Qualified Duellist
From: Brisbane
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 727

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Yasha and Frosty have given me an idea.
At the very heart of it, the debates and emotion over Shiori seem to stem from the problem that everyone takes her seriously. She's a polarising character, I'll admit, but so is every single other character in SKU. This thread has proven that - there's even ChuChu hate! emot-wink

So, maybe the trick is coming up with a General Theory of Shiori: understanding her personality motivation, which I think we have the information to do, and then poking fun at her.

So allow me to be the first to say -

Oh Shiori, your life: so hard! emot-tongue

(This post is intended as a light-hearted attempt to get everyone smiling about Shiori, even if they think she's a bitch. Remember, Anthy's a bitch too. As is Nanami. And Keiko. And Akio. And Juri. And Touga. And Tatsuya (srsly). And Wakaba. And [the author was found dead at his desk, a list of every character in Shoujo Kakumei Utena next to the computer, and suspicious nailbat-wounds on the back of his head. -Ed.]

Last edited by Almaser (10-29-2007 07:54:19 PM)

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#49 | Back to Top10-30-2007 12:30:07 AM

Jellineck
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Under your bed
Registered: 08-02-2007
Posts: 894

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Oh my god. This is turning into Reductio ad Hitlerum.

New proposed social theory: At any point in a SKU-related topic, the subject will degenerate into arguing about Shiori. Ad Shirorium.

Personally, this is the reason I like her. Right here. No other character in the series arouses such controversy, not even Anthy or Akio. Nobody else is so hard to place as a villainess, an innocent girl driven by circumstance, or a misunderstood tragic figure. What is it about that elicits such passionate reactions with her?

I think Ikuhara did masterfully with her. An initially innocent and sweet appearance, a regretful betrayal, the friendly first meeting, and then the descent into her twisted outlook on Juri. From there, her wince inducing humiliation at the hands of Ruka. It's amazing how people either enjoy her extreme pain or pity her. There seldom is apathy. Then, finally, the somewhat happy conclusion. If you wonder why she's so fascinating, just look at the responses here. That's a pretty big testament.

Shiori-fans adore/love her and have vast knowledge about her because they can relate to her.

I'd be careful about that assertion. I, for one, like Nanami although my personality is mostly drastically different than hers. I don't know how much Shiori is in me (in fact, I'm a bit more like Juri), but I'd like her even if she was completely alien.

Last edited by Jellineck (10-30-2007 12:31:55 AM)


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#50 | Back to Top10-30-2007 12:38:58 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Jellineck wrote:

New proposed social theory: At any point in a SKU-related topic, the subject will degenerate into arguing about Shiori. Ad Shirorium.

Does this need to join my signature? emot-gonk


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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