This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top06-09-2015 11:57:13 PM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
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Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

So for the new analysis section, which by the way is a thing that is beginning to exist, I'd like to have a page of references. Not analysis of them, but a resource for people that may wish to explore their relevance. I know there's been a lot of great revelations on the forum and I'm searching for them, but I'm looking for more! We each have so much to contribute from different avenues, and it'd be awesome to have a resource for that knowledge base that can be shared. I know my Freud/Jung, for example, but someone else recognized the painting in the BRS, or the shape of the school as a graveyard.

So far the ones I have are:

- Touga's egg speech coming from Hermann Hesse's novel, Demian.
- The birds in Shiori's BRS episode are identified as Java sparrows, which are popular caged birds.
- The pattern on the fencing gym floor is reminiscent of the Morning Star/Rosebud/Virginia quilting pattern style.
- The statuary in Her Tragedy that change during Nanami's conversation with Utena. Two out of four sculptures are clearly identified, as Bernini's Rape of Proserpina and Gerhard Marcks The Town Musicians of Bremen. There is also an unidentified classic female figure in the Greek style, and a man with a lyre, a pretty sure reference to Orpheus.
- Mikage lounging after the fire is a clear reference to Manet's painting of the prostitute Olympia.
- The shape of the school is reminiscent of the Kofun burial sites, especially with the raised end coinciding with the grave and dueling forest.
- Akio's car is a modified 1957 Corvette Roadster. (The actual car has no back seat.)
- Akio's projector is in the design and style popular in the 1950's. The dumbbell shape has lost its popularity with the advent of digital projection, but at the time was the pinnacle of technology, costing an outrageous amount that would make it completely impractical anywhere but a museum or research center.

So its stuff like that. Anyone have anything to add? Because I will shamelessly use you for information on the new analysis site. emot-smile


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#2 | Back to Top06-10-2015 01:03:29 PM

Enea
Juri Jeerer
From: Poland
Registered: 04-25-2015
Posts: 45

Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

I'm not absolutely sure if this is what you mean but:
- stairs to the duel arena looks alike Archimedes' screw
- stairs form the above are shaped like a golden spiral

And there are also many references in songs, majority of them rather obvious but still.
I remember:
Shangri-La, Paradise Lost, Sodom in Absolute Destiny Apocalypse
Dante, de Sade, Swift in Allegory, Allegorier, Allegoriest
Scypio in Spira Mirabilis something
so many monuments in I Am All the Mysteries in Creation

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#3 | Back to Top06-11-2015 06:30:24 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

A new analysis section?  Awesome!  emot-biggrin

Enea wrote:

Shangri-La, Paradise Lost, Sodom in Absolute Destiny Apocalypse
Dante, de Sade, Swift in Allegory, Allegorier, Allegoriest
Scypio in Spira Mirabilis something
so many monuments in I Am All the Mysteries in Creation

Ah yes, the music!  Let's not forget the duel chorus that is entirely about the Trojan War.  Or Donna Donna, which is lifted straight from the Yiddish musical Esterke.

The episode title "For Whom the Rose Smiles" appears to be an allusion to For Whom the Bell Tolls in the Japanese original, not just in translation.

We have argued about the location of Ohtori Academy.  It probably exists in abstracted space somewhere.  We have, however, confidently identified the Yokohama Marine Tower in the background of one of the shots, and, more tentatively, the Cosmo Clock 21 Ferris wheel in another -- two landmarks that are very close together in Yokohama's Minami Ward, on the coast of Tokyo Bay.  This is consistent with the Black Rose Saga forms placing Ohtori in Kanagawa Prefecture.  Whether or not Ohtori is in Yokohama, the Marine Tower at least is definitely a direct lift.

Um, Ohtori means phoenix, as does the manga's "Houou City."  That's a direct allusion of sorts, though I'm not sure whether it's an allusion to the Western phoenix or the Eastern one.  It's Ikuni, so probably both?

There's a ton more, but those are the ones that occur to me offhand.

Last edited by satyreyes (06-11-2015 06:44:52 PM)

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#4 | Back to Top06-11-2015 10:29:50 PM

Raven Nightshade
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From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2925

Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

satyreyes wrote:

Um, Ohtori means phoenix, as does the manga's "Houou City."  That's a direct allusion of sorts, though I'm not sure whether it's an allusion to the Western phoenix or the Eastern one.  It's Ikuni, so probably both?

I'd assume the Eastern one, as Houou is a derivation of Fenghuang, the Chinese name for phoenix.

To take it a step further, I would like to note that Kiryuu means "paulownia living". A paulownia (originally spelled Pavlovna for a Russian duchess) is also known as a "princess tree", "empress tree", or a "foxglove tree". Relating to the phoenix, it is said that one will land on a paulownia tree when a good ruler is in power. Actually, here's the Wikipedia article on the specific species of tree that this legend refers to. The tree's descriptions alone are just rife for symbolism about Touga and/or Nanami.

Last edited by Raven Nightshade (06-11-2015 10:30:22 PM)


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#5 | Back to Top06-15-2015 01:41:54 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
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Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

Raven Nightshade wrote:

Relating to the phoenix, it is said that one will land on a paulownia tree when a good ruler is in power.

emot-rolleyesemot-rolleyesemot-rolleyesemot-rolleyes

So who is supposed to be the good ruler, here? Akio or Touga? And Anna Pavlovna manages to describe one or both of the Kiryuus to a head slamming against a wall fault at any given moment. FFS.

These are all great!! I'm still torn on whether to include the duel choruses in this part of the site, which is going to be just a single page listing. I'm thinking more that over time I'd like to let the page break off into a list of the duel choruses with their respective references listed. Otherwise it'll get clogged with that content.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#6 | Back to Top06-15-2015 04:34:17 AM

Yams
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From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 973

Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

Giovanna wrote:

These are all great!! I'm still torn on whether to include the duel choruses in this part of the site, which is going to be just a single page listing. I'm thinking more that over time I'd like to let the page break off into a list of the duel choruses with their respective references listed. Otherwise it'll get clogged with that content.

I think duel songs should be definitely listed separately; the content of certain duel songs can be enough to fill an entire essay and that's just with listing definitions, before even going into analysis. XD

One of my favorite references but from a duel song, is the Spira Mirabilis. I have "Eadem mutata resurgo" written on the magnetic board above my desk. school-eng101


What about all the Anthy x Utena room scenes where the camera pans constellations and other heavenly bodies in the window? Has anyone ever made a collection of what each one is? That would be a great reference to list, I'd like to know what they all are. I feel like when people analyze SKU they just come to the end and there's so much shit going on that the giant planets in the window are the least of their worries.

Other things that come to mind: the red poppies that Akio enjoys eating for symbolic reasons (or peonies?), Kanae's white lilies. And are the statues in Juri's episode where she flips out on Utena based on real ones, or just purely there for coolz?

Last edited by YamPuff (06-15-2015 04:45:18 AM)


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

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#7 | Back to Top06-16-2015 09:08:11 PM

Sparky
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Registered: 01-31-2015
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Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

"End of the World" is possibly a reference to Haruki Murakami's book, Hardboiled Wonderland and the End of the World.

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#8 | Back to Top06-17-2015 04:39:48 AM

Jacrad
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Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

I guess you could add Chiho Saito's Magnolia Waltz from the second episode to the list.

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#9 | Back to Top06-17-2015 06:03:04 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
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Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

Jacrad wrote:

I guess you could add Chiho Saito's Magnolia Waltz from the second episode to the list.

That one's so blatant, I'm disappointed it didn't even occur to me.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#10 | Back to Top06-17-2015 09:03:51 AM

Snow
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From: under the dogstar sail
Registered: 09-30-2013
Posts: 643

Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

I think constructivist architecture heavily influenced the set designs in the movie, and is subtly present in the series as well, particularly in the design of the dueling tower. Tatlin's Tower comes to mind, the interesting thing about it is that it had a tilted elevator and spiral staircase planned. Segments that revolved individually on a daily, monthly and yearly basis were also part of the plan.

As for more vague architectural influences, I have a few guesses, but just as personal observations.

The Nemuro Memorial Hall seems like a mishmash of styles and influences, mostly classicistic. It's elongated proportions seem distinctly Roman, but its high postament reminds me a bit of how the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus is often portrayed. The ruined pillars in front look like they have Egyptian capitals,if proportions are to go by, with closed papyrus or lotus flower motif. Individual parts (portal, balustrade, loggia/balcony, windows) look renaissance. I find that quite interesting, since the rest of the campus displays more recent styles. Well, the school building archways and courtyard are very renaissance too, palaces and monastery grounds had a similar concept. It's impressive how well different styles communicate in Ohtori.

And I'm sure the dueling arena gate being a reference to Hortus Conclusus (ahem) was already mentioned on the forums, and the way to open it being by getting everything wet emot-rolleyes

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#11 | Back to Top06-17-2015 01:39:00 PM

Enea
Juri Jeerer
From: Poland
Registered: 04-25-2015
Posts: 45

Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

Hime means "princess".
Miya has a lot of meanings, one of them is "princess" again emot-rolleyes but others are "temple/palace" or "extreme beauty".
Probably everybody knows this but I wanted to post it here anyway...

Last edited by Enea (06-17-2015 01:39:42 PM)

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#12 | Back to Top06-17-2015 11:27:45 PM

Flah
Belladonna Buster
From: British Columbia
Registered: 09-05-2013
Posts: 211

Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

Ikuhara borrowed heavily from Night on the Galactic Railroad in Penguindrum, but few people seem to note the reference to it near the end of the Utena series and in Adolescence.

I'm going to have to spoiler this in case people still want to see Galactic Railroad and it's a pretty huge reveal in the movie. [I'm talking about Juri's story about a boy who rescued another child from drowning and died as a result. In Galactic Railroad, this is what is found to have been Campanella's fate.]


Somewhere, there is an unplugged toaster sitting on a Coleman stove.

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#13 | Back to Top06-18-2015 01:03:04 AM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
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Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

Jacrad wrote:

I guess you could add Chiho Saito's Magnolia Waltz from the second episode to the list.

That one's so blatant, I'm disappointed it didn't even occur to me.

Ahahaha yes I totally didn't even think of it.

Man you guys. emot-frown My intentions were noble but now I have to break down into categories. There's SUPER OBVIOUS things like the direct copies of some of the statues, or Magnolia Waltz, and then there's the less obvious ones, like references to Murakami. I think for now I want to just code the blatant stuff, and then the less obvious reference material and lyric references can be a later update. I feel bad enough having taken this long to update as it is and I really just want to roll out some new content.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#14 | Back to Top06-18-2015 05:29:40 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
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Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

Demian's got me thinking about the movie, in particular, and how many long-dead characters are still reacted to and discussed as if they're out there, chilling.

In the same way our boy in the novel is never (emot-winkemot-wink) making up anything about Demian, he's a totally real guy who's out there doing stuff, and... mother! you had me, but I never had you!

That's for the Indirect Reference thread, though.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#15 | Back to Top06-23-2015 12:59:51 AM

Yasha
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From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
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Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

YamPuff wrote:

And are the statues in Juri's episode where she flips out on Utena based on real ones, or just purely there for coolz?

Are they the same as the ones Clarice decoded in this thread? For some reason I keep thinking that's the same location. I could be wrong though, it's happened at least once in my life before. emot-keke


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#16 | Back to Top06-23-2015 10:50:29 PM

Jacrad
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Registered: 03-25-2014
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Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

The apple shooting scenario performed by the shadow play girls makes mention of the legend of William Tell.
Apparently it's a legend from Switzerland.

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#17 | Back to Top07-02-2015 06:02:45 PM

Arale
Sunlit Gardener (Prelude)
From: collective human consciousness
Registered: 12-07-2014
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Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

I know this is mainly focused on the show, but in the manga somebody who looks very much like Usagi inexplicably appears in one panel. (And on the subject of Sailor Moon, the three tall boys were in Sailor Moon before they were in Utena, weren't they? I don't know if that counts as a reference since its really just Ikuni carrying over characters but yknow there's that.)

Also on the subject of duel songs, don't forget what Mikage's duel-song was really referencing - that one photography technique thing by that guy. Yeah I'm very specific but you know what I'm talking about!


im a shadow play girl irl

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#18 | Back to Top07-03-2015 04:12:31 AM

Snow
Troublesome Insect
From: under the dogstar sail
Registered: 09-30-2013
Posts: 643

Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

Arale wrote:

Also on the subject of duel songs, don't forget what Mikage's duel-song was really referencing - that one photography technique thing by that guy. Yeah I'm very specific but you know what I'm talking about!

The daguerreotype process?

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#19 | Back to Top07-03-2015 06:18:02 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2925

Re: Direct References in SKU: What do you remember?

Arale wrote:

. (And on the subject of Sailor Moon, the three tall boys were in Sailor Moon before they were in Utena, weren't they? I don't know if that counts as a reference since its really just Ikuni carrying over characters but yknow there's that.)

I don't recall ever seeing them in SM. Maybe you're thinking of the Three Lights from Stars when they're in boy form?

To be fair, though, there are so many things that Ikuhara used in SKU that can be attributed to his time on Sailor Moon. So. Many. Things.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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