This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top01-05-2015 05:09:12 PM

BlueRoseTree
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 08-02-2009
Posts: 10

Anthy = Lilith?

I suppose this idea might've been considered here before (so many forum threads...) but what do you think about the possibility that Dios and Anthy are Adam and Lilith in the sense that she was his equal*, born/created alongside him and therefore able to act on her own and unwilling to submit - and that's why she could never become a Princess i.e. what a woman is expected to be in a patriarchal society, all passive  and submissive? That would explain why Anthy became a witch/Lilith became a demon because that's what the society declares a woman who cannot be controlled. That's why Adam had a new wife made for him because the original one refused his demand to submit to him, and buggered off. ( So a Princess would be any woman doing the Eve part ever after? )

* well, not entirely equal if we consider that *younger* siblings, especially sisters, are by definition lower in hierarchy in the Japanese culture, but let's say close enough, and having her own agency until she officially became the Rose Bride.

Last edited by BlueRoseTree (01-05-2015 05:16:09 PM)


go fave my Utena fanart at http://nitrofieja.deviantart.com/

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#2 | Back to Top01-05-2015 05:42:14 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Anthy = Lilith?

Hi BlueRoseTree! That's an interesting one, and I don't think we've discussed it before!  KaleMarsh made the connection between Anthy and Lilith over here, but no one really picked up the gauntlet.  We went down the Utena = Jesus path instead.  emot-smile

I had a reflexive "yes!" response to your idea, because Anthy-as-succubus is right on target.  But then I had trouble getting any deeper than that.  Lilith, just like you said, is notable because she won't submit to male authority, and that's why she has to become a witch/demon.  But it seems to me that storybook!Anthy has the opposite problem.  She becomes a witch because she can't become a princess, not because she won't.  She would prefer to be a princess.  She imprisons Dios in order to make him her prince, and then feels so guilty over it that she spends the next several centuries or millennia submitting to his authority.  None of that sounds very much like Lilith, who saw herself as independent of her equal Adam.

I do see how the show is about Anthy becoming more like Lilith: (re)gaining a sense of independent identity and using it to decide for herself what path she's going to walk.  But she became a witch long before that, didn't she?

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#3 | Back to Top01-06-2015 01:34:35 AM

Karuka
Electric Apocalypse
From: Planet Uranus
Registered: 06-27-2014
Posts: 160

Re: Anthy = Lilith?

Hello blue rose emot-smile
Welcome to the forum

To be honest I doubt that the story line of any of the characters have any connections to Judeo religion and myths.
Also Anthy and Dios racially look like Indians, so I connect their story to some Hindu god-goddess myth than anything else.

Anthy was punished by the mods for keeping Dios away from them, and she was submissive to everyone, something that Lillth seems to no be at all.

As for Utena Jesus ahhahahahah sorry but WHAT?
please, Utena is way too noble and way too different than any Judeo Christian myths and teachings.
Besides Utena doesn't teach anything her opponents, she learns and develops her character, she also does mistakes, and her sacrifice at the end is not for the better good but to save Anthy because she was happy being with her (quite selfish in its selflessness)
Jesus was supposed to be a someone without sin and someone who supposedly died for the better good, or whatever.


まずここでこのオスカル・フランソワの命をたってからにされるがよい!

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#4 | Back to Top01-06-2015 02:00:37 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Anthy = Lilith?

Karuka wrote:

To be honest I doubt that the story line of any of the characters have any connections to Judeo religion and myths.

Now, that might be a little hasty!  Ikuni decided to give the backstory the trappings of a European fairy tale, and to name the central male character "Dios," and to explicitly connect his alter-ego to Lucifer.  Those are moderately odd things to do if he doesn't want to evoke Judeo-Christian ideas.  I can't think of any straightforward parallels between Biblical characters and Utena characters, but I feel quite sure that Ikuni is intentionally twisting the Jesus story in these scenes.  We have Dios evidently sacrificing himself to save humanity, no?  But then it's Anthy who gets crucified, making a sacrifice of her own, but not to save humanity.  I don't want to stretch the point because I don't think Ikuni necessarily has a specific point in mind -- he is not above shallow provocation -- but I think he very much intends to allude to the Bible as a point of comparison.  SKU is very interested in the theme of redemptive sacrifice.  It would be bizarre if he didn't make any reference to the world's most famous redemptive sacrifice story.

Anthy was punished by the mods for keeping Dios away from them

Hey, I punished Anthy for derailing the cooking thread, not for keeping Dios away from me.

As for Utena Jesus ahhahahahah sorry but WHAT?

Heheh, yeah, again, I don't think the comparison goes much more than skin-deep.  But read the original thread.  The contrast is as interesting as the comparison.

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#5 | Back to Top01-06-2015 10:34:26 AM

Karuka
Electric Apocalypse
From: Planet Uranus
Registered: 06-27-2014
Posts: 160

Re: Anthy = Lilith?

satyreyes wrote:

Hey, I punished Anthy for derailing the cooking thread, not for keeping Dios away from me.

OH SHIT!!!!! I MEANT MOBS emot-roflemot-roflemot-roflemot-roflemot-roflemot-roflemot-roflemot-roflemot-roflemot-roflemot-rofl

as for the rest of the utena vs x-tianity argument
hmm that is really interesting when you put it that way

I'm just thinking that Japanese do not even have enough experience with x-tianity to go deep into it.


まずここでこのオスカル・フランソワの命をたってからにされるがよい!

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