This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#251 | Back to Top03-27-2008 05:15:46 AM

Coco Melancholy
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: We Hate SKU!

I don't think I really like Movie-Anthy. It was sort of like....where did that giggly school girl come from....

The duels were alright but lacked quite a bit of character, and there were only two.

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#252 | Back to Top03-28-2008 09:52:56 PM

cloche
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 08-05-2007
Posts: 20

Re: We Hate SKU!

Things I donít like about Utena:

Not much, honestly. XD

Iíve no complaints when it comes to characterization (at least that I can think of off the top of my head), and the things that non-fans complain about in the series are things that I actually like a lot, so thereís that.

But when it comes to animation, the show could definitely afford to have been spruced up a little. On one hand, some of the ways they cut corners added to the atmosphere and style -- rather than seeming like they were thrown in for the sake of reducing cost.

OTOH, the character models were really off in some episodes. I can forgive it when it comes to the earlier episodes in the first arc, but as the designs improved and more detail was put into the art, it became jarring to see reallypretty!character art followed up with character art that, um, wasnít.

The animation itself could have also used a larger budget. I think someone else mentioned that, though.

Otherwise, not much comes to mind for now. Will follow up later if anything does, though.

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#253 | Back to Top04-18-2008 08:13:06 AM

Mishi
Pained Growlithe
From: Montreal
Registered: 04-11-2008
Posts: 528

Re: We Hate SKU!

Not something I actually hate, but Utena's reaction to Touga's ring always bugged me. When she challenges Saionji, doesn't he tell her that all of the Student Council are involved in the duels, and that they all have rose seals like hers? She never once considers that Saionji might be her Prince. If I were in Utena's place when she first meets Touga, I'd be like "oh, yeah, he's on the student council too, so it's only natural he has the same ring." I certainly wouldn't have expected her to act all shocked the way she did. "Gasp! Could he be my Prince?" At that point, Touga hadn't really said anything she could misinterpret that way. Considering how adverse she was to his advances just a few minutes beforehand, that always seemed out of character to me, and pretty much ruined any appreciation I might have for Touga-seducing-Utena plot. It drove me insane how, long before Touga even knew about Utena's Prince fixation, and despite her apparent dislike of him, Utena could still entertain the possibility of Touga being her Prince.

I just realized the hole 'all the student council have a rose seal' might be interpreted as foreshadowing Akio's whorish ways.

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#254 | Back to Top04-18-2008 08:30:22 AM

Coco Melancholy
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: We Hate SKU!

Mishi wrote:

Not something I actually hate, but Utena's reaction to Touga's ring always bugged me. When she challenges Saionji, doesn't he tell her that all of the Student Council are involved in the duels, and that they all have rose seals like hers? She never once considers that Saionji might be her Prince. If I were in Utena's place when she first meets Touga, I'd be like "oh, yeah, he's on the student council too, so it's only natural he has the same ring." I certainly wouldn't have expected her to act all shocked the way she did. "Gasp! Could he be my Prince?" At that point, Touga hadn't really said anything she could misinterpret that way. Considering how adverse she was to his advances just a few minutes beforehand, that always seemed out of character to me, and pretty much ruined any appreciation I might have for Touga-seducing-Utena plot. It drove me insane how, long before Touga even knew about Utena's Prince fixation, and despite her apparent dislike of him, Utena could still entertain the possibility of Touga being her Prince.

I just realized the hole 'all the student council have a rose seal' might be interpreted as foreshadowing Akio's whorish ways.

Nothing seemed odd about that scene until I watched the third in the Rose Bitch series and wondered how the hell Utena can get two completely different looking characters confused. O.o

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#255 | Back to Top04-18-2008 08:34:19 AM

Mishi
Pained Growlithe
From: Montreal
Registered: 04-11-2008
Posts: 528

Re: We Hate SKU!

Coco Melancholy wrote:

Nothing seemed odd about that scene until I watched the third in the Rose Bitch series and wondered how the hell Utena can get two completely different looking characters confused. O.o

Oh, I was willing to suspend my disbelief on that point. She was a kid when she met the Prince. It's possible that she didn't remember what he looked like.

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#256 | Back to Top04-18-2008 08:49:58 AM

Coco Melancholy
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: We Hate SKU!

Mishi wrote:

Coco Melancholy wrote:

Nothing seemed odd about that scene until I watched the third in the Rose Bitch series and wondered how the hell Utena can get two completely different looking characters confused. O.o

Oh, I was willing to suspend my disbelief on that point. She was a kid when she met the Prince. It's possible that she didn't remember what he looked like.

I was and am to a point to but details submitted in Utena's memory clearly show wavy short silvery hair whilst Touga's is a far cry from that. Saying that none of this ever bothered me, I think Utena's search for her prince encompassing her life the way it does will naturally make her draw all sorts of crazy conclusions.

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#257 | Back to Top04-18-2008 08:58:28 AM

Adrasteia
Memorial Hollerer
From: Newfoundland, Canada
Registered: 11-15-2007
Posts: 694
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

My friends and I always laughed at the fact that Utena mistook the caucasian, redhaired Touga for her prince. I don't really get how she expected to find her prince if she couldn't even remember what ethinicity he was.

And Touga's what, 16? He could hardly be a prince to a girl a few years younger to him when she was only 7 or 8 years old. I always found that part of the series hard to swallow, but you sort of just go with it. Just like nobody ever recognizes Sailor Moon without her costume on - it just doesn't make sense.

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#258 | Back to Top04-18-2008 08:59:37 AM

Coco Melancholy
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: We Hate SKU!

And Superman is suddenly a different person with he's glasses on.

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#259 | Back to Top04-18-2008 09:09:04 AM

Adrasteia
Memorial Hollerer
From: Newfoundland, Canada
Registered: 11-15-2007
Posts: 694
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h293/Yasashishinma/1296_4_063.jpg

emot-tongue

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#260 | Back to Top04-18-2008 09:13:52 AM

Mishi
Pained Growlithe
From: Montreal
Registered: 04-11-2008
Posts: 528

Re: We Hate SKU!

People DO change their hairstyle. (not so much in anime, but whatever) Obviously the Prince needed to go incognito, so he grew his hair long, dyed it red, and straightened it. And did a Micheal Jackson. (I'm going to burn in Hell for that one.)

In a way, though, throughout the series, Utena was pretty conservative in the number of guys she considered might be her prince. There was just Touga and Akio.

To me, there are just too many inconsistencies in that scene. Touga flirts with Utena and she literally pushes his hand away. She is NOT interested in him. But then, she notices his ring, and it's like she's a completely different person. It might have worked if it had happened in the first episode, before she knew about the duels. She could have been portrayed as latching onto the first guy she sees with a rose seal, but that's not how it happened.

Or maybe what happened was: "Hey, Saionji has a rose seal! Could he be my Prince? Nah, my Prince would never slap a girl. So he can't be my Prince." Then: "Hey! Touga has a rose seal too! He's kind of a macho playboy, but he doesn't slap girls! He MUST be my Prince!"

My CORE complaint is that Utena seems like the type to trust her heart, and her first impression of Touga was NOT a good one. I have a hard time believing that on such flimsy evidence she could consider a guy she disliked could be her Prince.

Last edited by Mishi (04-18-2008 09:20:39 AM)

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#261 | Back to Top04-18-2008 09:43:00 AM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 589

Re: We Hate SKU!

In the first manga Utena keeps having Marcel Proust moments that are activated by the scent of roses. Any guy with rose cologne sets her imagination racing.

Touga explains the age difference by saying that when he met her the first time as her prince it was a "moment out of time" whatever that means and certainly Utena does not spend much time analyzing it. Analysis doesn't seem to be her strong point.

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#262 | Back to Top04-18-2008 10:21:38 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

Mishi wrote:

My CORE complaint is that Utena seems like the type to trust her heart, and her first impression of Touga was NOT a good one. I have a hard time believing that on such flimsy evidence she could consider a guy she disliked could be her Prince.

This was my big complaint about it too. Fine, rule out Saionji since no, prince probably wouldn't beat women (haha boy was she wrong, prince would beat them and make them like it), but Touga wasn't any shining example of merit either and she knew that.

Really the closest thing to a prince would be...Miki. Why does she never suspect him?

...or did I just betray myself in naming the weakling tool the most princelike male character? emot-confused


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#263 | Back to Top04-18-2008 01:07:51 PM

Mishi
Pained Growlithe
From: Montreal
Registered: 04-11-2008
Posts: 528

Re: We Hate SKU!

Well, Miki doesn't slap girls, and he doesn't use them for sex either. Of the regular male cast, he IS the most virtuous. That's not saying much, but it's still true.

Last edited by Mishi (04-18-2008 01:11:29 PM)

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#264 | Back to Top04-18-2008 02:08:08 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: We Hate SKU!

Adrasteia wrote:

My friends and I always laughed at the fact that Utena mistook the caucasian, redhaired Touga for her prince.

Japanese redhead. emot-wink
But I got the impression that she really doesn't remember how he looked, just how he smelled (roses, obviously). But she wasn't very practical thinker, when it came to the Prince, anyway.

And Touga's what, 16?

17. Again, emot-wink. But if you look at how the actual event looked like, Dios did not actually seem much older than Touga and Saionji, at first. It may be my imagination, but he seemed to age a bit during the scene, itself. In any case, it's not like there's any actual age-limit for being a Prince.

Or maybe what happened was: "Hey, Saionji has a rose seal! Could he be my Prince? Nah, my Prince would never slap a girl. So he can't be my Prince."

Hmm...Did Utena actually notice Saionji's Rose Seal...It's been awhile since I saw the first episode, so I can't remember...


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#265 | Back to Top04-18-2008 02:15:51 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

Lightice wrote:

Or maybe what happened was: "Hey, Saionji has a rose seal! Could he be my Prince? Nah, my Prince would never slap a girl. So he can't be my Prince."

Hmm...Did Utena actually notice Saionji's Rose Seal...It's been awhile since I saw the first episode, so I can't remember...

Yes, she does. Well, it's not so much that Utena notices it as it is Saionji says "HAY LOOK WHAT I'VE GOT" and holds his hand up to her.


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#266 | Back to Top04-18-2008 02:49:29 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

In Saionji's case, he notices her ring first.

As for Utena's first impression of Touga... We don't really know, do we? She knew of him before the series starts, and the first time the viewer sees Utena get a glimpse of Touga, he's stopping Saionji from slapping Anthy. Touga's not a prince, but as far as anime conventions go he acts as the prince-type. Even without knowing about Utena's prince, he wants to favourably impress her; for him that results in acting in a chivalrous, prince-like manner.

Further, the images of Dios we see in the fairy tale recap don't come from Utena's memory. When the actual events are finally shown, Utena herself doesn't (re)gain this information, she only has a sense of it like a forgotten dream. Incidentally, Touga did show up the night Utena met her prince. And he acted in his 'princely' chivalrous/chauvinist manner back then as well. We don't get any idea of what Utena thought of him, she had other things on her mind, but there's the slim possibility she remembers that encounter as part of the scenario where she met her prince.

Last edited by Ragnarok (04-18-2008 02:50:03 PM)


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

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#267 | Back to Top04-18-2008 03:09:57 PM

Adrasteia
Memorial Hollerer
From: Newfoundland, Canada
Registered: 11-15-2007
Posts: 694
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

Lightice wrote:

Japanese redhead. emot-wink
But I got the impression that she really doesn't remember how he looked, just how he smelled (roses, obviously). But she wasn't very practical thinker, when it came to the Prince, anyway.

Touche. I never even considered that, actually - I guess I was only thinking in terms of dark and light.

17. Again, emot-wink. But if you look at how the actual event looked like, Dios did not actually seem much older than Touga and Saionji, at first. It may be my imagination, but he seemed to age a bit during the scene, itself. In any case, it's not like there's any actual age-limit for being a Prince.

I think, for me, the height difference was very noticable when I first saw Saionji and Touga as children. They were closer in size to Utena than Dios, although Dios has a very youthful face.

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#268 | Back to Top04-18-2008 04:55:47 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: We Hate SKU!

Adrasteia wrote:

I think, for me, the height difference was very noticable when I first saw Saionji and Touga as children. They were closer in size to Utena than Dios, although Dios has a very youthful face.

We don't really see proper comparison, since all the time Touga and Saionji were present, Utena was crouching in the coffin, and neither is present at the same time as Dios. I had the impression that Dios/Akio (subject of another discussion) deliberately appeared as relatively close to Utena's age, since she really couldn't handle dealing with an adult, at the time.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#269 | Back to Top04-18-2008 09:27:33 PM

Mishi
Pained Growlithe
From: Montreal
Registered: 04-11-2008
Posts: 528

Re: We Hate SKU!

Ragnarok wrote:

As for Utena's first impression of Touga... We don't really know, do we? She knew of him before the series starts, and the first time the viewer sees Utena get a glimpse of Touga, he's stopping Saionji from slapping Anthy. Touga's not a prince, but as far as anime conventions go he acts as the prince-type. Even without knowing about Utena's prince, he wants to favourably impress her; for him that results in acting in a chivalrous, prince-like manner.

She already knows his reputation as a playboy, and it's easy to see she disapproves.

This always struck me as strange, although I know they did if for the benefit of the viewers, but it's Utena's second year at Ohtori Academy, yet she needs Wakaba and other metaphorical "Mr. Exposition"s to tell her who's who and what's what about the Academy. Was she conveniently living under a rock for the past year?

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#270 | Back to Top04-18-2008 09:41:25 PM

Adrasteia
Memorial Hollerer
From: Newfoundland, Canada
Registered: 11-15-2007
Posts: 694
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

I think she transferred in, like in the manga. emot-smile

...though, yeah, she is already friends with Wakaba, isn't she? Maybe Wakaba just attached herself to Utena immediately.

But Utena is also part of a sports team at the beginning of the series? Haha, plotholes are great. Maybe we're just missing something that explains all of this.

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#271 | Back to Top04-18-2008 09:55:37 PM

Iris
Queen of the Video Box
From: The whispers of twilight
Registered: 12-28-2006
Posts: 2124

Re: We Hate SKU!

Adrasteia wrote:

I think she transferred in, like in the manga. emot-smile

...though, yeah, she is already friends with Wakaba, isn't she? Maybe Wakaba just attached herself to Utena immediately.

But Utena is also part of a sports team at the beginning of the series? Haha, plotholes are great. Maybe we're just missing something that explains all of this.

Boy:  Say, Tenjou, if you'd just join our basketball team,
Boy:  the local playoffs would be a sure thing!
Utena:  Now look! I'm a girl, you know.
Utena:  I don't like playing basketball with a bunch of stinking, sweaty boys.


Nope, not on the sports team.  Just played with them.


http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f29/IrisBeloved/piano.png

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#272 | Back to Top04-18-2008 09:59:21 PM

Adrasteia
Memorial Hollerer
From: Newfoundland, Canada
Registered: 11-15-2007
Posts: 694
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

I completely forgot about that. Thanks for clearing things up. emot-smile I guess the anime beginning does follow the course of the manga. Wakaba does seem like the type who wouldn't hesitate to immediately befriend Utena.

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#273 | Back to Top04-18-2008 10:00:21 PM

Kaelyndra
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 04-18-2008
Posts: 557

Re: We Hate SKU!

Whoo, I get to start out as a New Student.

Alright, here's my contribution to the dislike of Utena (anime):
- Their horse animation, but this is my complain in 99% of every drawn cartoon ever created.
- The fact they don't introduce Utena's backstory in the anime. I really liked how the manga made her have an aunt and a friend. (Though it lacked many aspects in other sections)
- Nanami's crack episodes.
- The short duel songs. I want 4 minutes of epic, not 2 and a half.
- The repeated animation. I loved Utena's animation (crazy though it may have been), and I wish I could see more types of action shots.

Utena (manga):
- Too much to list? My main complaint is Juri being straight, but this has already been brought up.

Utena (movie):
- If I consider it like I do the series, everything, but the animation quality was nice. I'll never be able to get over what they did to Utena and Anthy's hair.

For the discussion of current:
I guess it's assumed that she'd already been at Ohtori for some time. Everyone seems to know her, and Wakaba was waiting for her. My guess is since it was the beginning of the new semester that she'd already spent one full one there, but it seems rather weird that she hadn't heard of the council members yet. Then again, considering Utena's dense nature at times. . .

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#274 | Back to Top04-18-2008 10:02:33 PM

BioKraze
Faceless Master
From: Yuma, Arizona (USA)
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 8282

Re: We Hate SKU!

Yeah. Utena's denser than a neutron star.

(That was for you, Gio. emot-keke )


Roses have thorns to stop those who would dare deny their right to live.
Razara's Postulate: For every lover of lesbians out there, there is an equal and opposite attraction to Dippin' Dots.

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#275 | Back to Top04-18-2008 10:32:55 PM

Mishi
Pained Growlithe
From: Montreal
Registered: 04-11-2008
Posts: 528

Re: We Hate SKU!

BioKraze wrote:

Yeah. Utena's denser than a neutron star.

In other words, conveniently living under a rock.

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