Katzenklavier wrote:

Case in point, Saionji lost Touga's love at a young age. A close friendship turned cold and distant. He thought it was because he was less special than Touga and therefore unworthy of his affection. He then becomes obsessed with proving he is worthy and, more importantly, regaining his cherished friendship.

Totally agreed with this part about Saionji!  It's just spot on; I couldn't have said it better myself.

That said, I'd go further to say that Saionji cannot love Wakaba simply because he has never gotten over Touga to begin with.  If you ask me, even Anthy was but a mean for him to seize this "eternity", so he might make his "friendship" with Touga an eternal one.  This is why he was so keen on keeping Anthy under tight control (something he'd never do with Touga or Wakaba): he sees the Rose Bride not as someone to love, but as a tool to be harnessed.

This is something that even an unobservant person like Utena manages to catch on:
Ep09
Utena:  Do you really love Himemiya?
Utena:  If you do, why are you trying to win her by dueling?
Saionji:  Only by winning her in a duel can I defeat him.
Utena:  By him, you mean Touga?
Utena:  Is this just some rivalry with Touga?
Utena:  Are you just using Himemiya to get at him?
Saionji:  You wouldn't understand even if I told you.
Saionji (ventures into the ambiguous):  With Anthy by my side, I will gain something eternal.

And does Touga know it . . .
Ep 25
Saionji:  What are you getting at?
Touga:  Well then, why are you striving for that castle said to hold eternity?
Touga:  Isn't that because you believe that if you get there, you will find something eternal,
Touga:  ...for example, eternal friendship or something?

Saionji's easy acceptance of Touga - to the point of becoming his bride in Ep 36, and then whoring himself out to Akio for him in Ep 37 - also points to how for all his bitter facade, he still loves Touga like Juri does Shiori.  He is certainly eager to show/prove this love when given any viable chance.

Now, onto Wakaba . . .

There's no indication prior to the Black Rose saga that Wakaba is obsessed with popularity.

That I find a little debatable.

Ep 1

Girl:  What are you doing over there?
Wakaba:  Waiting to see my boyfriend!
Girl:  Boyfriend?

While this can be interpreted a lot of ways, referring to Utena (so much more popular than her) as her boyfriend to those cameos does look like a "coolness by association" effort on her part.  That, and she got very excited when pointing out how Saionji is the Vice President of the Student Council (aka campus elite).  To me, at least, Saionji's popularity around campus seem to be a huge reason for her obsessing over him.

And, let's not forget just who else Wakaba finds attractive at Ohtori.

Probably because she senses he's secretly sad and wounded.

But if Wakaba loves people who are sad and wounded, that she can take care of, she should've been a lot nicer to Anthy (a loner and bullying victim).  Instead, she is shown disliking/unsympathetic to Anthy even  as late as Ep 34, when there is no longer any conflict of interest (she has already gotten completely over Saionji).  Though by that point in time, Wakaba is openly fancying Akio, the ultimate campus elite/cool guy.  IMHO the only thing that keeps her from seriously going after Akio is her having gotten the love smack down from the SC Vice President - who was no where as out of her league as the Acting Chairman.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (03-26-2014 07:49:07 PM)

Hey, jmie5, welcome to the conversation

Yep, Sai and Touga had struck me as a canon couple since before I'd even go online reading fics about them.  To me, I kinda think they're a tight unit despite how both boys try to act otherwise (social pressure for how boys should behave in public and all).  While Touga is shown interested in Utena, I see Saionji being essentially interested in no one but Touga.  In fact, this scene in Episode 36



again shows (IMHO) how Saionji sees Anthy as nothing more than a tool (a convenient pillow, in this instant). 

This



is where his real feels are.

Wakaba does have a hidden passion, but aside from her being such a resource of love and acceptance, I wonder what Saionji could (as he is,) see in her.

As for Wakaba . . . Sai X Wak reminds me too much of Montgomery Clift X Shelley Winters in A Place in the Sun for me to see it working.  You see, people like not what they need - they like what they want.  I'm sure Sai has grown to appreciate the kindness she shows him during his expulsion, but that's not to say he is attracted to her beyond that kindness.  That's  the problem right there: he sees her as a life jacket.  Once he's back on dry ground (back to elite status), he'd have no further use for her.  Not only that, should Wakaba persist in hanging on to him after he gets readmitted, he would then be forced to see her as an obstacle to his using Anthy to get Touga: the good impressions she'd have left in his mind will sour by then.  IMO it really is for the best that S and W breaks cleanly off that early on, or things could get a lot uglier than the robbing of a soul sword.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (03-28-2014 03:15:14 PM)

Re: Katzenklavier

Awesome post.  The points are all very well put, and I do agree with most of it. 

On Sai X Wak, yes, supposing Sai can wholeheartedly go for 'need' and not 'want', then the relationship could've lasted for a while longer.  Though, my headcanon tells me that a Sai who never took Mikage's deal and got readmitted will eventually become more and more of a burden to Wakaba - there's only so long she could shelter him in a dorm room of all places.  I can see Wakaba ditch him by that point in time.  But that, of course, is my headcanon of that character: other valid possibilities exist too.

If popularity and social influence were the sole draws, then why wasn't she obsessing over Touga?

Touga's playboy (man whore) reputation -something neither Sai nor Akio is tainted with (regular students think he's loyally engaged) - is likely a deal breaker for Wakaba, whose idea of romance appears largely non-sexual.  Plus she sees for herself how Touga openly antagonize/mind-screw Utena - something she does not get to see with Sai or Akio.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (04-01-2014 08:32:16 AM)

Ruka and Touga, it would be hot and I think that if someone needed some out side sexing, it could be worked out/ accommodated, i just have the feeling that they could both make awkward  sacrifices for their relationship... if necessary, while still respecting themselves. 

Wakaba and Miki, if they noticed each other and interacted, it would help them not obsess over Anthy and Saionji and get what they need.

Threesome parings,

Touga,  Saionji,  Nanami so  Saionji,  Nanami are seeing each other romantically and somehow Touga ends up screwing Nanami via  Saionji manipulation, it starts with: mistaken identity, machinations, time, housebound, and alcohol (or some other mind altering substance).  It ends with Touga, screwing Namami and Saionji, watching then joining it and fucking Touga from behind.

Syna wrote:

If you're like me, you just... don't know what they'll produce. It seems too epic. I mean, Kozue/Touga could have provided an indication but they were too busy messing with Miki to really do anything fun, and... Kozue/Akio are masters. The possibilities are endless, you just know mindfucking will be involved.
I personally kind of want to see Shiori/Kozue or Shiori/Akio. Just to see how badly the first would BREAK.

So thanks to this I can kinda see a Akio, Kozue, Shiori descending it to some kind of school wide orgy... and or world domination plot.

Or a Ms. Othori, Akio, anthy interlude. Ms. Othori visits Akio in his office and start screwing and then Anthy arrives early and joins in...

So what do ya'll think about a Utena, Anthy, Wakaba paring?

My favorite pairs are Utena/Anthy and Juri/Miki; Utena and Anthy's relationship is really what the whole show is about, and through good times and bad, through confusions and misunderstandings, betrayals and sacrifices, these two show that they are first and foremost in each other's hearts, and only Utena could help give Anthy the strength she needed to leave Ohtori behind and that is just beautiful to me.

Juri and Miki have this absolutely wonderful friendship, so chill and calm in the face of the madness of Ohtori Academy, they both think the other is just great and there are these wonderful scenes early on in the show of Juri just taking the time to go out of her way and check up on Miki and make sure he's doing okay, and Juri's Orange rose does symbolize friendship becoming romance; yes, this is intended to be about her and Shiori, but there's nothing to really stop it from happening for her and Miki, and they would benefit from such a relationship so much and after everything they've been through they deserve that kind of happiness.

Last edited by cypsiman2 (06-10-2014 10:06:52 AM)

Gaston wrote:

cypsiman2 wrote:

My favorite pairs are Utena/Anthy and Juri/Shiori; Utena and Anthy's relationship is really what the whole show is about, and through good times and bad, through confusions and misunderstandings, betrayals and sacrifices, these two show that they are first and foremost in each other's hearts, and only Utena could help give Anthy the strength she needed to leave Ohtori behind and that is just beautiful to me.

Juri and Miki have this absolutely wonderful friendship, so chill and calm in the face of the madness of Ohtori Academy, they both think the other is just great and there are these wonderful scenes early on in the show of Juri just taking the time to go out of her way and check up on Miki and make sure he's doing okay, and Juri's Orange rose does symbolize friendship becoming romance; yes, this is intended to be about her and Shiori, but there's nothing to really stop it from happening for her and Miki, and they would benefit from such a relationship so much and after everything they've been through they deserve that kind of happiness.

I think you did a mistake.

Oh dear, I do believe you are right!  Well, Juri and Shiori do love one another so it's not the worst mistake I could have made (I personally don't think a romantic relationship between Juri and Shiori could ever really work out but I've got nothing against it or people who do ship it.)

dlaire wrote:

So, bearing in mind that her plan didn't work out, Wakaby actually tells Utena to get hurt like she did.

Holy crap, it's true. Honestly I don't think Wakaba says that out of malice (LOL ANTHY'S MALICE) but rather boundless, even perverse, levels of optimism. A huge part of the conflict in her BRS duel is the realization that she's not one of the 'special ones' that gets what they want in life. But she knows Utena is. Maybe she's cheering on her friend whose chances are better?

That said, I've always imagined Wakaba did weird things like stare at him in his sleep, sleep with his clothes in her bed, and maybe touch his privates in the night. Which are all way less likely but more hilarious for Utena to be doing.

OH BOY, A SHIP THREAD. This is what I was made for.

Anyway, my favorite is Shiori x Utena. I WILL GO DOWN WITH MY CRACK!SHIP. Also Utena x Anthy, Juri x Shiori, Utena x Wakaba, Juri x Miki, Miki x Nanami, Juri x Nanami, Saionji x Nanami, Touga x Saionji and my guilty pleasure ship of Touga x Miki (but not in the light novels, ironically enough.) OH, AND KAIDO X UTENA IN THE MANGA. FIGHT ME.

For poly ships my favorites are Anthy x Utena x Wakaba, Juri x Nanami x Miki, Juri x Shiori x Miki, and Juri x Anthy x Shiori x Utena. Polyships are the only way you'll get me near Juri x Utena, btw.

Favorite crossover ships include Utena x Ed (Fullmetal Alchemist, 2003 specifically), Utena x Rena (Higurashi no Naku Koro ni), Jean (Attack on Titan) x Utena, Mikasa (also Attack on Titan) x Utena, Mikasa x Utena x Jean, Utena x Ed x Rena, Touga x Zelos (Tales of Symphonia) for funsies... I'm a shipping machine and a lot of my ships only make sense to me (or in the RP setting they originated in, for some of them.)

At least I can list all I want here. On tumblr, I would get torched for liking het, crossovers and Kaido. THE HORROR.

Last edited by QueenOfJebri (06-18-2014 10:23:26 PM)

Snow wrote:

Those tumblr people are quite easy to piss off. They rage over SHIPS, of all things...

You mean like that?

http://revolutionaryconfessions.tumblr. … content-as

Oh my god shipping Miki x Utena is so an horrible crime and somehow shpping Miki x Touga or Miki x Saonji is so much better.

Gaston wrote:

Snow wrote:

Those tumblr people are quite easy to piss off. They rage over SHIPS, of all things...

You mean like that?

http://revolutionaryconfessions.tumblr. … content-as

Oh my god shipping Miki x Utena is so an horrible crime and somehow shpping Miki x Touga or Miki x Saonji is so much better.

Hahaha, I just reblogged that earlier today as proof that the fandom is in fact as toxic as a confession yesterday implied and that no, people DON'T just get bent out of shape when people support shitty real life things (or they perceive someone to.)

No guys, there are people who claim that anyone who likes Shiori are anti-feminist abuse apologists. There has been someone who CLAIMED TO BE BULLIED just because people didn't agree with her views on Shiori. And, as the responses to that confession show, there are people who will roast you if you dare ship the "wrong" thing.

"Not toxic," my ass. "Only getting after apologists of horrible things," my ass. But I digress, and I'm getting a little off topic. ;)

Last edited by QueenOfJebri (06-19-2014 08:00:05 AM)

I think Nanami would throw something really heavy at me for every last one of my ships involving her.

Actually, I think Nanami and Ruka might hit it off. He's proud and she's sassy, he likes women who know what they want and she might be interested in someone strong, popular and self-confident.
He and Touga are similar and if Juri doesn't seem to cold to Ruka, he might find Nanami's reserved nature exciting instead of off-putting.
They just have to dye their hair red and orange.