This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top01-18-2007 08:35:29 AM

hyacinth_black
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WTF moments in Utena...

Okay, I have had some moments when watching Utena where I have just been completely like 'WTF??'

I really want to know how this forum interprets these moments, because I am an interpritation addict, but I can't write my own.  Ever.

Okay... so these are the moments when I was most confused...

During Miki's last duel episode, there is the part where Kozue & Miki are talking about their step-mother & the phone rings & it is their step-mom (or dad or something) on the phone.  You see a shot of the room where the call is being made & you see a man with Anthy.  Anthy says something to the effect of "it's a bit early for them to call me mother," & then it goes back to Miki & Kozue.

Me: WTF????

Please, PLEASE tell me why this was there!  I have tried way too hard in thinking what the possible explanation of this is, but I have come across nothing.


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#2 | Back to Top01-18-2007 08:47:14 AM

Maarika
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From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Re: WTF moments in Utena...

Here's a relevant post about that scene http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?pid=1646#p1646

As for the WTF moments, I've had quite a few of them myself. The most recent one I wanted to work out was the one with Chu-Chu digging the ground and a worm appears. I think that's allegory. But I want to save this material (uh, that means my vague ideas on this) for the Chu-Chu thread (yes, I wanna make one. emot-biggrin ).

You know, after you watch certain scenes over and over again countless times, they actually start to make some sense.


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#3 | Back to Top01-18-2007 09:28:33 AM

hyacinth_black
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Re: WTF moments in Utena...

Maarika wrote:

You know, after you watch certain scenes over and over again countless times, they actually start to make some sense.

Hmm... yes... I suppose that they would... but that just doesn't happen for me with this one scene...

I have plenty of others, but I also want to see what everybody's different interpritations are.


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#4 | Back to Top01-18-2007 09:49:09 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: WTF moments in Utena...

Maarika wrote:

Here's a relevant post about that scene http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?pid=1646#p1646

As for the WTF moments, I've had quite a few of them myself. The most recent one I wanted to work out was the one with Chu-Chu digging the ground and a worm appears. I think that's allegory. But I want to save this material (uh, that means my vague ideas on this) for the Chu-Chu thread (yes, I wanna make one. emot-biggrin ).

You know, after you watch certain scenes over and over again countless times, they actually start to make some sense.

Great! Start the thread so we can talk about the Chu Chu/worm scene. Because that's a significant Utena/Anthy moment.

hyacinth_black wrote:

During Miki's last duel episode, there is the part where Kozue & Miki are talking about their step-mother & the phone rings & it is their step-mom (or dad or something) on the phone.  You see a shot of the room where the call is being made & you see a man with Anthy.  Anthy says something to the effect of "it's a bit early for them to call me mother," & then it goes back to Miki & Kozue.

Seems to be two camps on this: Miki is imagining Anthy as his new step-mother because he doesn't really know what she looks like and he's mapping his obsession with Anthy-as-seductress onto his father's seductress, the new stepmom
OR
Anthy really is the stepmom. She leaves Ohtori on a regular basis to create havoc in the Kaoru family. And she's sleeping with Miki's dad?

I'm going with the first explanation because I just can't believe she has time for the second with all the time she spends following Utena around.

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#5 | Back to Top01-18-2007 01:04:58 PM

brian
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Registered: 10-22-2006
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Re: WTF moments in Utena...

FWIW my pet theory is that any trophy wife is a Rose Bride. Or from a different angle Anthy is the embodiment of all trophy wives.

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#6 | Back to Top01-18-2007 01:52:46 PM

Raven Nightshade
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From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2925

Re: WTF moments in Utena...

brian wrote:

FWIW my pet theory is that any trophy wife is a Rose Bride. Or from a different angle Anthy is the embodiment of all trophy wives.

Well, in a sense; that leads back to Anthy's statement(don't remember which episode) that "In the end, all girls are like the Rose Bride".


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#7 | Back to Top01-18-2007 02:01:09 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: WTF moments in Utena...

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a133/RzMule/AnthyMother2.jpg
Most parents tend to alliterate the names of their twins, but Miki and Kozue's names are similar in a different way. Miki's name means, "Trunk," and Kozue's name means "Treetops." If you keep this in mind while watching episode 26, it's easy to catch onto the symbolism. Whether or not this really happened is debatable. I believe that it did happen, I just don't think that it was really Anthy who was there. The reason why such crazy things happen in Utena is because of hidden symbolism.

Notice that the veil over Anthy has a treetop pattern, which relates her to Kozue. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the shape of the phone that we see shortly after looks like a tree trunk.

So, what does Miki's stepmother have to do with Anthy and Kozue? The stepmother is a replacement for their true mother, just as Miki sees Anthy as a replacement for his sister. This could also relate to how because Miki and Kozue rarely ever see their parents, they look out for each other instead.

I think that the concept of treetops and trunks has a deeper meaning that I'm not quite sure of. The episode, "The World Seen From Kozue," has a lot of symbolism based on what she sees, such as when she watches the music teacher hit on her brother. Though the treetops and a trunk are just two parts of a whole, the treetop would have a much greater perspective of the world than the trunk. While the treetops can see things that are far away, the trunk can only see what is near it. Miki's innocence can keep him from seeing the things that Kozue is able to see.

Right... That's enough out of me, for now.

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#8 | Back to Top01-18-2007 02:36:44 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: WTF moments in Utena...

Razara wrote:

Razara's kick ass tree analogy

And that would relate to why Kozue is such a basketcase about the tree being cut down on campus.

Brian wrote:

FWIW my pet theory is that any trophy wife is a Rose Bride. Or from a different angle Anthy is the embodiment of all trophy wives.

Raven Nightshade wrote:

Well, in a sense; that leads back to Anthy's statement(don't remember which episode) that "In the end, all girls are like the Rose Bride".

I really like that idea.

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#9 | Back to Top01-18-2007 02:52:20 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
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Re: WTF moments in Utena...

I'm inclined to think that in addition to symbolism - which I don't disagree with - it actually is Anthy, moving some pieces to put Kozue and Miki where they're supposed to be for the ongoing game.

I also think the tree analogy for the twins is very cool, BTW. I'll incorporate that into my analysis of those two from here on. Here's the first bit that immediately springs to mind: the treetop, the leaves and branches, are fragile and replaceable. They need the tree more than the tree needs them. That fits fairly nicely into my feelings on Kozue and Miki.

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#10 | Back to Top01-18-2007 03:20:53 PM

KissingT.Kiryuu
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From: Somewhere and Nowhere
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Re: WTF moments in Utena...

Akio and the popy flower...

i was creeped out by that.....oh and this

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q278/SisterElla09/CCIFW3.jpg


http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q278/SisterElla09/mrsaturnDance.gif

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#11 | Back to Top01-18-2007 03:33:17 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
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Re: WTF moments in Utena...

Touga's eye looks open there. Wouldn't it be closed if he were looking through the viewfinder? Instead, it looks like he's staring right at Akio's crotch which, ya know, it's hard to look away from considering....

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#12 | Back to Top01-18-2007 09:19:01 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: WTF moments in Utena...

I think Akio said something that disturbed him there. This is where they're discussing the purchase of Utena's 'present', the earrings, but I forget what it is Akio said that caused Touga to look at him like that.


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
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#13 | Back to Top01-18-2007 09:56:13 PM

Romanticide
Cow Bellhop
From: Mazatlan
Registered: 10-18-2006
Posts: 447

Re: WTF moments in Utena...

I don't know if counts as a WTF! moment but...
I rewatching the Utena movie and in the video scene. Exactly in the part Akio jumps around his car dances a little with Kanae and ends going home in a taxi... ok the whole part makes me wtf but what I just noticed is that... akio's car and the taxi have inverted, the conductor's seat.

watch:
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/moviedvd/Cap190.jpg
In Akio's car the conductor seat is on the right as seen by the viewer

http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/moviedvd/Cap201.jpg
while the taxi's is on the left O.o

the question is... why? ... is it a mistake or does it actually means something? emot-confused

note: thanks Yasha and Giovanna for the screencaps.

Last edited by Romanticide (01-18-2007 09:58:14 PM)


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#14 | Back to Top01-19-2007 06:32:52 AM

Maarika
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From: Estonia
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Re: WTF moments in Utena...

I think it means Akio prefers western cars over the ones that are used in Japan (and some other countries). cool


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#15 | Back to Top01-19-2007 07:53:36 AM

Ivy-chan
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Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: WTF moments in Utena...

My WTF moment was the throwaway line of Anthy saying that Akio was really more like their father. emot-gonk


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#16 | Back to Top01-19-2007 08:28:07 AM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
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Posts: 4694

Re: WTF moments in Utena...

Ivy-chan wrote:

My WTF moment was the throwaway line of Anthy saying that Akio was really more like their father. emot-gonk

After Anthy says that Akio is more like her father, it abruptly shows two shots of Kozue from earlier on in that episode, making it seem as though it refers to her. Once again, this relates to how Kozue and Miki feel the need to look out for each other because they don't have parents. In the previous scene, Akio irritably asks Anthy, "How do you feel about her?" "In what way...?" He then grabs onto Anthy's arm and roughly pulls her closer to himself. "How do you feel about her? Tell me." "The teacup broke..."

The behavior that Akio and Kozue display is that of an overprotective father, worrying about the type of person their daughter (or twin brother) might be associating with. Also, the teacup symbolism is mentioned again in the clipshow, but I'm not sure what it means.

"My older brother is like that... Perhaps it's because he's an adult." Kozue, by the SKU definition, is an adult. Their innocence is what sets the two of them most apart. Kozue and most fathers realize what kind of things relationships can lead to, but Miki may be too innocent to realize it.

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#17 | Back to Top01-19-2007 09:23:16 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: WTF moments in Utena...

Razara wrote:

After Anthy says that Akio is more like her father, it abruptly shows two shots of Kozue from earlier on in that episode, making it seem as though it refers to her. Once again, this relates to how Kozue and Miki feel the need to look out for each other because they don't have parents. In the previous scene, Akio irritably asks Anthy, "How do you feel about her?" "In what way...?" He then grabs onto Anthy's arm and roughly pulls her closer to himself. "How do you feel about her? Tell me." "The teacup broke..."

And Anthy's finger twitches, just a tad. But that one gesture from someone like Anthy speaks volumes about what Anthy might think of Utena. She thinks something about Utena that she doesn't want to share with Akio.

You could be right but if Akio is acting like a father, he seems like a jealous, possessive father to me. school-freud

Last edited by Dani (01-19-2007 09:48:44 AM)

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#18 | Back to Top01-19-2007 10:25:37 AM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: WTF moments in Utena...

It's not that she's saying that he's acting like a father that made me so surprised, it the 'our father'. As in: they actually could have had parents. It's picturing a father of Akio that made me emot-gonk.


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#19 | Back to Top01-19-2007 11:41:39 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: WTF moments in Utena...

Ivy-chan wrote:

It's not that she's saying that he's acting like a father that made me so surprised, it the 'our father'. As in: they actually could have had parents. It's picturing a father of Akio that made me emot-gonk.

Hmm, is that the official translation on the DVD? I don't remember the "our". Too bad I'm at work and can't watch it at the moment.

Edit: The subtitles on the DVD reads :

"Akio seems so tolerant about everything."
"Yes, my brother is like that. Maybe because he's an adult. [pause] He's more like my father."

The English dub adds a word to make it "He's really more like my father."

Absolutely a WTF moment.

Last edited by Dani (01-19-2007 03:22:28 PM)

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#20 | Back to Top01-19-2007 06:23:12 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
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Re: WTF moments in Utena...

I doubt that there is any deeper meaning behind the events but for me, the biggest WTF moments are those surfing, skydiving, mountain climbing elephants.

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#21 | Back to Top01-19-2007 07:10:42 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: WTF moments in Utena...

Tamago wrote:

I doubt that there is any deeper meaning behind the events but for me, the biggest WTF moments are those surfing, skydiving, mountain climbing elephants.

Yeah, what the heck? Who thinks of that stuff and what are they on?

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#22 | Back to Top01-19-2007 07:16:06 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
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Re: WTF moments in Utena...

You know, honestly, it was the car jump.

Mostly because I immediately imagined the production meeting that must have taken place where someone went HAVE HIM JUMP OVER THE WINDSHIELD! and someone else went HEY GREAT IDEA :drops more acid:


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#23 | Back to Top01-19-2007 07:19:32 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2925

Re: WTF moments in Utena...

Tamago wrote:

I doubt that there is any deeper meaning behind the events but for me, the biggest WTF moments are those surfing, skydiving, mountain climbing elephants.

I never gave any real thought to the Nanami filler episodes. Someone did tell me what they thought the Nanami's Egg episode was about...unless I read that here.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#24 | Back to Top01-19-2007 07:28:24 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
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Re: WTF moments in Utena...

I'm sure some of the forum members can think up all sorts of fun and fasinating ideas on why things like the elephants and the Tamago incident were there for but frankly, I suspected that they served as a breather between all the deep and meaningful episodes even if they do slip in some hidden stuff for us obsessive fans. emot-keke

Raven Nightshade wrote:

I never gave any real thought to the Nanami filler episodes. Someone did tell me what they thought the Nanami's Egg episode was about...unless I read that here.

You might have read some of the older forum posts on the Nanami fillers.

Some Nanami based Threads

http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=75

http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=123

Last edited by Tamago (01-19-2007 07:33:49 PM)

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#25 | Back to Top01-19-2007 10:19:58 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: WTF moments in Utena...

Giovanna wrote:

You know, honestly, it was the car jump.

Mostly because I immediately imagined the production meeting that must have taken place where someone went HAVE HIM JUMP OVER THE WINDSHIELD! and someone else went HEY GREAT IDEA :drops more acid:

Hehehe, yep that's the biggest WTF in the movie and there are SO many in that movie...why couldn't he make an OVA post-series like everyone else?

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