Good morning! Today on the SKU body language tour we will be taking a plane out of Miami International Airport. There will be a four day stopover in London where you will be free to camp out in the British Museum before taking another plane into Rome, where you will be greeted by gorgeous Italian men with dark eyes and bottles of Sangiovese.

Oh wait. That belongs in the fantasy thread. Ahem. Today, let us compare and contrast Touga and Saionji in terms of how they handle their... swords.

The common thread between the two situations I'm using is that they both involve swords and girls. (Anthy, though this isn't important.) The Freudian analysis is completely unavoidable here, but I think we can all agree, especially in Touga's case, that it's not supposed to be avoided. I'm going to go with the assumption we are doing what the series suggests and equating swords with cocks, but even if you remove this component, the conclusions will still apply, since they'll also describe a difference in how the two interact with the world.





If you read my Akio body language essay, you know I harped on and on about protruding hips, and the difference between jutting them forward and jutting them to side, the latter being slightly less sexual, but in a rather deliberate way. Someone aiming their body language at a more innocent crowd. The latter is also part of Touga's baseline body language; he does it by default. However, throughout most of the series, and most of this behavior observed in real life, this posture usually involves a hand placed on the hip. This is suggested genital contact. Touga, as you can see, isn't doing it here, though it's his habit elsewhere. Why? Let's just summarize. 'You do it.'

Touga's told Anthy to abandon her body blah blah protect the sword blah blah. Aside from presenting his sword by aiming it  at her, he does nothing to aid her in this task. He doesn't even hold it at eye level; he expects her to kneel subserviently. The hand on his hip would have suggested he's doing some portion of the work by touching himself. Nope. That's her job, too. In the other shot we see his pose from another angle, and find his back is unusually arched back. Imagine him on a bed, arching his back slightly, pushing his hips up, with his arms comfortably at his sides or behind his head anticipating the blowjob of his life, and you have what's basically the exact same idea as this. Adjusted for the show's rather explicit symbolism, you do actual have this.

We already know pretty well what this says about Touga sexually. It's easy to forget in the flurry of his seductive behaviors that his pursuit of women is done mostly for form, and his pleasing them is rather directly self-interest in pleasing himself. Touga is incredibly selfish about sex and about women; they are the ones that must desire him. His pursuit of them operates on this assumption, which is why he has such a rough time with Utena. Even if he shows the initiative, in the end the one that has to be convinced is him. The girls in his flock must face him, he doesn't turn to look at them. Most of those crowd scenes involve him leaned against a tree or a column while they crowd around; more of this passive drinking in of their enthusiasm. He'll sit back in his bed, injured or not, and let them crowd around. Sure, he'll lean in and speak with his lips a couple inches from Utena's, but it's because he expects from her a greater show of desire. Blushing, sudden stillness, perhaps her arms coming up. His willingness to invest a display of desire lines up directly with his expectation of a larger return. He can never be the one that desires more.

Tossing out the sex and the Freud, we still have a behavior that shows itself very much in Touga's way of doing things. Touga is a manipulator; he doesn't drag you onto the dance floor, he coaxes you there. He doesn't reach out and grab what he wants, he convinces it to come to him. If you want to dig deep, you can conclude this has to do with that Touga feeds his ego this way, by making people come to him, by making things come to him. Akio in contrast doesn't have this problem and is quite willing to do the chasing himself, where Touga can only tolerate the appearance of that, and his interest 'declines' when he can't make people do the work or make the pursuit themselves. Though motivated underneath it all by a fear of his own inferiority, Touga thinks highly enough of himself to assume people will, in fact, fall in line. He's right, the vast majority of the time. When he's wrong, it takes a whole arc for him to get over it.




(Fine so I would destroy every pair of panties in the country if he did that to me. )

If the theme for Touga's ...swordwaving... is 'You do it.', Saionji's is 'I'll do it.' 'You totally want to bless my sword.' versus 'I totally want to touch you with my sword.' (Ahhh, I love body language.) Saionji starts from the arm holding his sword being at his side to lifting the hilt through the space between them to her chin. Though explainable by starting distance, it's an amusingly accurate comment to make that while Anthy is expected to approach Touga's sword, Saionji is perfectly happy to grossly invade her personal space with his. He lifts her chin with it, a threatening gesture made invasively sexual by what he's doing it with. He wants her to look at him, and the expression on his face is strangely affectionate. His leaning in manages both to be aggressive and more of that affection, as if he's unable to see the logical conflict in an attempt at closeness being tinged with the threat of expected obedience. He wants her to look up at him. He wants to be close to her. He's willing to use aggressive, threatening means to accomplish this.

Saionji's eyelids are lowered, a calm smile on his lips. His eyebrows curve up. There's nothing on his face that suggests anything aggressive in his behavior. He looks geniunely affectionate, even loving. The biggest tell is his eyebrows, drawn together and curved up the way they are when you're interacting with something adorable and sweet to you. When Touga does this, a kitten is batting his hair. His eyebrows come down, almost critical, when he leans into girls. Satisfaction, where Saionji is almost innocently loving.

And yet his arm is raised, blocking her escape. He's forcing her to face him, using an extremely phallic object to hold up her chin, near a portion of her anatomy that suggests a sex act. Touga expects women by merit of his awesomeness to come to him. Saionji will make them come to him. And yet, both approaches are motivated by inferiority, just calculated differently. Saionji lacks even the surface self-esteem to assume people will come to him. He doesn't have the nerve to demand that and be denied; he'd rather grab you, invade your space, force you to him than sit back and risk you running away.

This dictates his behavior in many aspects of his life, and it's why he's so reckless. He feels he has to go out and grab the things he wants, or he won't get them. He doesn't think he deserves to have those things come to him. There's no manipulation in Saionji, only pursuit. Touga demands others desire him with minimal investment in his returning it. Saionji will offer great displays of his own desire in things and people in hopes that they will be overwhelmed into returning it.

There are some very disturbing possible conclusions you could draw from this trait in Saionji. Namely, if he were more sexually aware, could this behavior express itself in more direct terms than the phallic hilt of a sword? Is it possible there are circumstances that could exist where Saionji could reasonably and within the boundaries of his personality rape a woman?

I bow to your almighty analysis, Giovanna dear.

Last edited by angelicreation (01-15-2007 09:56:35 AM)

Yasha wrote:

And this, my friends, is why we have these emotes:

Ah yes, tell me about it. Here I am, wanting to make a logical and thoughtful contribution, and all the functional parts of my brain are instead taking Gio's analysis and applying it to hot Touga/Saionji butt smex in my head. [headdesk] I should just give up now.

Giovanna wrote:

Good morning! Today on the SKU body language tour we will be taking a plane out of Miami International Airport. There will be a four day stopover in London where you will be free to camp out in the British Museum before taking another plane into Rome, where you will be greeted by gorgeous Italian men with dark eyes and bottles of Sangiovese.

Oh wait. That belongs in the fantasy thread.

Dammit, I was just about to get on the train down to London. I need to go to the Natural History Museum sometime this lifetime. Not to mention I still haven't forgiven myself for spending three hours in the National Gallery while somehow forgetting to go and see Van Gogh's Sunflowers. Twat.

Giovanna wrote:

Tossing out the sex and the Freud, we still have a behavior that shows itself very much in Touga's way of doing things. Touga is a manipulator; he doesn't drag you onto the dance floor, he coaxes you there. He doesn't reach out and grab what he wants, he convinces it to come to him. If you want to dig deep, you can conclude this has to do with that Touga feeds his ego this way, by making people come to him, by making things come to him. Akio in contrast doesn't have this problem and is quite willing to do the chasing himself, where Touga can only tolerate the appearance of that, and his interest 'declines' when he can't make people do the work or make the pursuit themselves. Though motivated underneath it all by a fear of his own inferiority, Touga thinks highly enough of himself to assume people will, in fact, fall in line. He's right, the vast majority of the time. When he's wrong, it takes a whole arc for him to get over it.

That is completely Touga right there -- and I really like how you point out the difference between him and Akio. I think that Akio also takes pleasure in the hunt, whereas Touga wants to be the one pursued; I would figure it at least gives him some illusion of control over the situation, whereas Akio has such a massive ego I believe he'd think himself in control whatever was going on. Not that he hasn't got the...attributes...to back that up.

Giovanna wrote:

Saionji's eyelids are lowered, a calm smile on his lips. His eyebrows curve up. There's nothing on his face that suggests anything aggressive in his behavior. He looks geniunely affectionate, even loving. The biggest tell is his eyebrows, drawn together and curved up the way they are when you're interacting with something adorable and sweet to you. When Touga does this, a kitten is batting his hair. His eyebrows come down, almost critical, when he leans into girls. Satisfaction, where Saionji is almost innocently loving.

Now, I love that about Saionji; it's distinctly creepy, how he can be both sweet and threatening in the same gesture. One could almost think it manipulative, if not as consciously done as what Touga demonstrates...it almost seems to fall within the "it's for your own good; I'm only doing what you want/need me to do" category, which is where you get into the mindset of someone capable of abusing another person. Which once again makes me wonder what in the hell happened to Saionji in his childhood because dude that's fucked up. It's moments like this in the series that make me quite frightened of Saionji, but as others have pointed out he seems to demonstrate this behaviour really only with Anthy. She completely brings out the worst in him, and I don't think it is because she is the general "victim" of the series, either. She's the Rose Bride, she behaves how her Victor wants...although then again, she does keep setting him off even once she is engaged to Utena. Which makes me wonder how much of it is on purpose, and what exactly Anthy wants to achieve by doing that to him. Huh.

Giovanna wrote:

This dictates his behavior in many aspects of his life, and it's why he's so reckless. He feels he has to go out and grab the things he wants, or he won't get them. He doesn't think he deserves to have those things come to him. There's no manipulation in Saionji, only pursuit. Touga demands others desire him with minimal investment in his returning it. Saionji will offer great displays of his own desire in things and people in hopes that they will be overwhelmed into returning it.

It's exactly this quote that has me wanting to waste my evening writing hot pointless PWP Touga/Saionji, because DAMN those two bouncing off each other would be hawt. Thank god I'm jetlagged and would likely fall asleep ten minutes in. (Although the dreams...)

Giovanna wrote:

There are some very disturbing possible conclusions you could draw from this trait in Saionji. Namely, if he were more sexually aware, could this behavior express itself in more direct terms than the phallic hilt of a sword? Is it possible there are circumstances that could exist where Saionji could reasonably and within the boundaries of his personality rape a woman?

Much as I hate to admit it, I think it is entirely possible -- although it would be a certain type of girl who would set him off, namely Anthy. I think he needs to have someone play the victim to bring out that in him, and she's a master at martyrdom. Wakaba? I don't think so; Saionji's behaviour towards her is quite sweet, and rather restrained. Although Wakaba is fairly deferrent around him, she has a strength of character that Anthy lacks (which is not a true reflection of Anthy's real personality, either; she's playing a role, and we all know the Rose Bride is a doll with no heart). Saionji, I think, has a person in Wakaba, rather than a doll in Anthy, and that distinction would likely be important in how far he'd go towards objectifying her. And I think once the objectifying is complete, he could do pretty much what he wanted and figure SHE wanted it, because she didn't do anything convincing to say she actually wanted otherwise. If that makes any sense. I am so jetlagged right now.

Ragnarok wrote:

It's an arrogant, jerky thing for him to do, no question. Just not, in Touga's mind, in regards to Anthy.

Incidentally, Touga's pose (with his back arched that way) also has him 'presenting' in Utena's direction.

Excellent explanation, I'd have to agree with you on Touga and that his focus is on the power play with Utena. I guess he's really bought what Akio and Anthy are selling about the Rose Bride. It's interesting in the manga that Touga does get to see Anthy at the end, to witness how wrong he was, something series Touga doesn't get to know since they've all forgotten Utena. I wonder if he spent any of his Black Rose Saga brooding time trying to figure out exactly why Anthy released the power on the sword.

Tamago wrote:

I wonder if one of the reasons Touga treated Anthy the way he did, is that if Anthy insists on acting like a mindless doll then far be it for him to refuse to treat a woman the way she wishes to be treated?  Its a odd thing to say I know, but that how it seems to me.

Hmm, except Utena just wanted to be left alone. Guess he doesn't respect every woman's wishes.

Dani wrote:

Tamago wrote:

I wonder if one of the reasons Touga treated Anthy the way he did, is that if Anthy insists on acting like a mindless doll then far be it for him to refuse to treat a woman the way she wishes to be treated?  Its a odd thing to say I know, but that how it seems to me.

Hmm, except Utena just wanted to be left alone. Guess he doesn't respect every woman's wishes.

She says that she wants to be left alone, yes, but that doesn't mean that Touga believes her and doesn't think that she's just playing hard to get. Which in its own way would be baffling to him for all the reasons that Gio listed.

There was a long gap between when I saw the Seitokai arc and the rest of the series, but I remember always thinking that the whole point of the "bless the sword" crap was to remind Anthy of what she is (before I ever knew about Akio and that Anthy is more then what she seems), as well as to really put Utena in her place. I always loved the look she has right afterwards, like she's jealous, maybe. 

If you're taking requests, Gio, I wouldn't mind an analysis of Wakaba and Saionji together (whenever you get there).

Let's see. I'ma tally up the requests so I don't forget. I'm going through the series in sequence so I'll probably be doing Wakaba and Saionji (SQUEE) pretty soon.

Maarika - Any Anthy whateverever (done)
ShatteredMirror/Dani - Juri giving Utena the sword in episode 12 (done)
Frosty - More Anthy, lol
Syna - The stylized nude artworks of the cast (done)
Everyone! - Ep 37, Akio/Anthy car ride
Dani -  Utena, Episode 25, Time 44:47
morosemocha - Wakaba and Saionji together
angelicreation - Juri and Ruka in the fencing hall with the chairs

Last edited by Giovanna (01-25-2007 02:52:36 PM)

Tamago wrote:

As a Rose Bride, Anthy cannot say NO as such (I know she could but thats getting off the subject a bit) so he isn't exactly sexually excited with the idea of 'doing it' with a human doll... Utena on the other hand said NO to him and for someone who has more foursomes than most people had hot dinners, the idea that a pretty girl could refuse him of all people excites him so that's why he ignores her wishes in this case.

ShatteredMirror wrote:

She says that she wants to be left alone, yes, but that doesn't mean that Touga believes her and doesn't think that she's just playing hard to get. Which in its own way would be baffling to him for all the reasons that Gio listed.

Giovanna wrote:

Utena can be seduced, she just puts up a fight.

Anthy, as far as Touga knows, can't be seduced. It's completely moot. She'll never seriously fall all over him and worship and adore him, so he has no interest at all in her.

Emiemipoemi wrote:

This is the best thread ever. etc-loveetc-loveetc-loveetc-love

Agreed!

Also, Shattered, I agree with your comment from the other thread that EM is the best Utena site ever. I just didn't want Gio and Yasha to stop working on this one, getting swell heads and resting on their laurels.

morosemocha wrote:

There was a long gap between when I saw the Seitokai arc and the rest of the series, but I remember always thinking that the whole point of the "bless the sword" crap was to remind Anthy of what she is (before I ever knew about Akio and that Anthy is more then what she seems), as well as to really put Utena in her place. I always loved the look she has right afterwards, like she's jealous, maybe.

Yep, love that look. I took at as major irritation, disgust and bordering on jealousy.

morosemocha wrote:

If you're taking requests, Gio, I wouldn't mind an analysis of Wakaba and Saionji together (whenever you get there).

angelicreation wrote:

I'd like to see an analysis of Juri and Ruka in the fencing hall with the chairs.  So much body positioning changes going on there.

Yes, please! But I know you can't wait to do that first one anyway.

Giovanna wrote:

Let's see. I'ma tally up the requests so I don't forget.

You are THE best. Thanks so much for this thread.

Giovanna wrote:

Syna - The stylized nude artworks of the cast

Those are done by the same artist that did the Bolly Anthy picture that you posted, correct? I love those.

Sorry this post is so long.

Last edited by Dani (01-16-2007 07:28:17 AM)

brian wrote:

He does not want to risk emotional attachment to Anthy, he may even be afraid of losing his cool in the same way.

Or it's possible he knows that if he does get too close to Anthy, she might be able to play mind games with him and therefore he decided that she was just too 'dangerous' to fool around with.

Whereas Juri rubs you the right way?

Clarice wrote:

I still haven't forgiven myself for spending three hours in the National Gallery while somehow forgetting to go and see Van Gogh's Sunflowers. Twat.

And you shouldn't. That's alright, I've been to NYC several times without going to see Starry Night, but then it's at a museum that's pretty slim on things I'd want to see otherwise. You don't have an excuse.

Clarice wrote:

Now, I love that about Saionji; it's distinctly creepy, how he can be both sweet and threatening in the same gesture. One could almost think it manipulative, if not as consciously done as what Touga demonstrates...it almost seems to fall within the "it's for your own good; I'm only doing what you want/need me to do" category, which is where you get into the mindset of someone capable of abusing another person. Which once again makes me wonder what in the hell happened to Saionji in his childhood because dude that's fucked up.

I agree 100% on that. In that scene he's telling her so sweetly how they'll see eternity together, etc, etc, and then slams her right in the face with the hilt of the sword to get her out of the way. He knows what's best for her and is willing to make her suffer now for the promise of better things later. 'It's for your own good' is something I suspect he's heard many, many times. He's really such a fascinating character to me. But I'ma shut up because I'll get into this later.

Dani wrote:

Usually I find his character amusing and interesting, but I really hate Touga in that scene when he makes Anthy "bless" the sword. It's so degrading, far beyond the tactics he uses with other girls.

I agree, and it really goes to show that Touga does not think of Anthy as a girl or at least anything like a normal one. He's a big fucking jackass, but he keeps up appearances, and I can't imagine him so openly degrading a girl he actually registered as a girl. It would leave a sour taste in his mouth, not because he's a good guy, but because that's not how things are done.

By the way, I most certainly will not rest on my laurels. If I did, think I'd be overhauling the gallery like this?

Since I haven't finished the Wakaba episodes (sry, yesterday was kinda bad for me ), and I do have Tsuwabuki's episode done, let's play a little more with Mikage! This is in response to the Mikage thread where everyone asked for details when I mentioned the look he gives Tsuwabuki kinda suggesting the naughty. I'm putting it here because it's body language, but I'll be referring to things covered in that thread as well.







The sequence here is significant, perhaps even more than his expression. What happens here is the same as what happened with Mikage and Miki. His body language fits the conversation almost too well, in a way that suggests an underlying conversation. He keeps reminding me of Akio this way, because Akio does the same damn thing. You can fit what they're doing to their words, but if you forget what they're saying and cold read the body language, the message is totally different.

What do I mean? Well, in honest and straightforward body language, your impression of the situation is the same regardless of whether you know what the discussion is. If you watch two friends chatting in a cafe, you can almost guess the conversation in body language, even if you don't hear their words. It's two friends chatting, and it looks like two friends chatting. The body language should agree with the dialogue. If you watch someone and get an impression that doesn't agree with the actual dialogue, you have a subtext. A conversation under a conversation. This is what Mikage was doing with Miki; they were discussing the seminar but remove the script and it looks like Mikage's propositioning him sexually. The For Dummies edition of this is Akio and Mrs.Ohtori. Separate their conversation and their body language and you get grossly different ideas of what's going on. It's what's happening here. Forget what's being said and look at these sequence.

Mikage's face starts indifferent when they're looking at Tsuwabuki to see who it is. But he's smiling after that. He's smiling at Tsuwabuki, though Nanami is looking at him. This is a biggie, Nanami's speaking to him and he's quite openly neglecting to face her, he's instead continuing to watch Tsuwabuki, and he's smiling as if distracted. Tsuwabuki is more interesting to him at this point than Nanami, though Nanami is going to the greater length for his attention. This is probably the most damning shot, because even within the context of the conversation, this stands out. He should be looking at Nanami. It's even more strategically sound to be paying more attention to Nanami to push Tsuwabuki's jealousy. Instead, he's watching him, with a small, relaxed smile on his face.

Mikage then begins to lead Nanami off, and places his hand on her shoulder in the only moment where he's looking at her. He then turns again to look at Tsuwabuki. Now he's speaking to him, but he chose to do this after he'd established physical contact with Nanami. He could have asked Tsuwabuki if he'd like to join first, but instead, he speaks to him while he's touching Nanami. Again, in the context of the conversation, we see why. Remove the conversation and it looks quite a bit more like a suggestion that Tsuwabuki could be in Nanami's place. Couple that with the shot of his face right after, with an almost leering grin, and there's something not quite innocent going on here. A suggestion that Mikage would rather prefer to be going off with Tsuwabuki. This suggestion is harder to catch than with Miki because Tsuwabuki is pretty oblivious, though Miki was not, but go by instinct and look at Mikage's face. He looks suggestive. Alarms would go off in your head if he looked at you like that.

His pupils are dilated. His eyebrows are sharp, angled down a little, his face is turned entirely toward Tsuwabuki. (Remember what I said about Anthy not totally facing Akio because she doesn't have to confront a creature she's pursuing? Well Mikage does.) Mikage is very interested in what he's looking at, and for most of the scene, it hasn't been Nanami, though manipulatively speaking, it should have been. He was supposed to be in the position Tsuwabuki is supposed to want to be in, but since that goal is accomplished either way, he feels free to spend the entire time watching the boymeat.

Edit: BTW, I splurged on a Jump Drive for my job so I could sneak gallery stuff there and named it Mikage.

Last edited by Giovanna (01-17-2007 10:41:38 AM)