Giovanna wrote:

About Dios not being good.

Oh yay! I agree so completely its uncanny. Finally, good solid reasons for my dislike of Dios.

And now I have a question as well.

In Episode 21 dealing with the relations of Keiko to Nanami and Touga, there's that scene with Utena and Anthy towards the end.

Utena:  That's not what I'm talking about. How can she still be Nanami's friend?
Utena:  Even though she's actually carrying all sorts of feelings...
Anthy:  That's easy.
Anthy:  For someone you love, your feelings for any other people become insignificant.
Anthy:  You can deceive yourself as much as you need.

I'm not positive on who Anthy means that Keiko loves in this point. She could love Nanami as a friend and be ignoring her love for Touga for as long as she needs. But she could have just as easily be deceiving herself to Nanami. I really want to think that it's the former. That Keiko likes Nanami's friendships that much, but I'm a hopeless friendship whore. So, maybe it's not concrete, but is that what you guys got out of it, too?

And thought it might be off-topic, I love that line of Anthy's so much. It's a clear sign of her saying things that foreshadow her relationship with Akio all the time. In my opinion in means this: Her feelings for Utena are insignificant, because she loves her brother, and she's deceiving herself against being a person. That basic gist anyway. I love SKU's foreshadowing so much.

I agree with dollface--I think Anthy means that Keiko "loves" Touga and so will deceive herself endlessly in order to be closer to him. 

It's one of many things Anthy says about the relationships/feelings of other characters that is as much Anthy talking of herself (if not more) than it is about anyone else.

Interestingly enough, it seems unlikely that Touga will ever feel for Keiko what Keiko would like him to feel, so any hopes Keiko has are also her deliberately deceiving herself.  (Sure, Keiko SAYS she didn't have hopes, but that's what she told herself consciously, not how she felt subconsciously).  You could pretty much say that Touga isn't and will never be the Prince for Keiko that Keiko wants.  Kind of like Anthy and Akio, huh?

I digress.  I really don't think Anthy could be saying that Keiko loves Nanami...  It seems evident to me that Nanami and Keiko aren't truly "friends."  Nanami has her good points, but actually considering her henchgirls real "friends"...?  And I doubt Keiko is so dumb as to think Nanami truly cares for her as a friend.  Whatever else you might say about the Black Rose duels, the feelings they find in the elevators are genuine...Keiko deeply dislikes Nanami.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (08-01-2008 09:02:51 PM)

You gotta also wonder whether Nanami is acting that way because it's who she is, or is there more to it? I mention this a lot, that Nanami (and Saionji) are like the show's fools, in the Medieval sense. They trip on their own shoelaces for our amusement but a fool that cannot read its audience loses it quickly, and they both at moments show themselves to be far more perceptive about the nature of others than their actions let on. How likely is it, really, that Nanami can't smell from a mile away girls that want to suck up for access to her shining dazzling brother? Were these three even the first example of it? They were quite obvious, practically jumping for Nanami's favor as soon as the connection to Touga was made. Even Tsuwabuki has, for one with a keen nose, the stench of a hero complex that makes him not entirely Nanami's own.

I don't doubt for a minute that Nanami is, well, a bitch. But I wonder if the degree of her using behavior isn't itself informed by her awareness that none of these people approached her for her. For that matter there is no relationship to another human being she has in the show that isn't somehow tainted by Touga's greater influence. Well, except for those three guys. The closest she seems to get to anyone else is Juri and Miki, and even they probably would never have spoken to her if they weren't already affiliated with her brother.

Saionji is less in this position but I suspect feels it nonetheless. It's part of why I think one could make a successful argument for shipping them.

OK, finally I moved my ass and I started translating SKU into Polish once again, and I have one question about Shiori's quote. I remember that someone has already said that she didn't say 'Believe in miracles, and they will know your true feelings' as it is written in scripts, but I don't remember what exactly it was.
Who remebers what did she say?

Edit: If someone remembers another things like that, please let me know. Unfortunately I don't know Japanese. And one more thing: does 'Kashira kashira' really means 'I wonder I wonder'?

Last edited by dlaire (09-09-2008 09:31:45 AM)

If I have it right, Shiori's line is "Kiseki wo shinjite, omoi wa todoku to."

Literal translation: "Believe/trust in miracles, and [your] thoughts/feelings/hopes will reach [them]."  A couple things worth noting here:

- The part in brackets is implied.  There is no indication of who your feelings will reach, which is why the script says "they will know your feelings" instead of "he," "she," "people in general," "I," or even "you."  There's also no clear indication that it's your feelings that are doing the reaching.  It could mean "my feelings will reach you."  But I think the canon translation makes the most sense in context.  Japanese is a clinically ambiguous language!

- "They will know your feelings," of course, isn't quite the same as "your feelings will reach them."  I don't know the precise connotations of "todoku," to reach.  If it means to reach someone in the literal sense, "they will know your feelings" is a strong translation.  But if it can be more metaphorical, like the word "reach" can in English, then "omoi wa todoku to" might be better translated as "they will be touched by your feelings" or even "they will share your feelings."

- There is also a subtle difference between believing in miracles and trusting in miracles.  ("Shinjite" can mean either one.)  I like "trust in miracles" better in this context, but I'm no professional.

- There's one other possible translation for "omoi wa todoku to," namely "... and [they] will reach [your] thoughts/hopes/feelings."  Wa is sort of a vague particle that doesn't make clear whether the feelings are doing the reaching or being reached.  I think the above translation is more sensible, though.

Last edited by satyreyes (09-09-2008 10:59:52 AM)

Looks like Touga to me.

And so smirky.

Oh, now that's an interesting interpretation of the "to," Razara, and once I hadn't considered.  It makes sense, though.  I'd been interpreting it as a different "to," the particle that means "and therefore," which is where you get the cause-and-effect of "if you believe in miracles, then your feelings will reach them."  But your way actually makes at least as much sense, in which case the cause and effect comes from the "shinjite."  But then maybe shinjite isn't an imperative?  Wow, then the sentence could mean "you believe in miracles, so your feelings will reach them -- or so someone said."  With no implied "believe in miracles" command.  Wow, this sentence is really ambiguous even for Japanese.  We need to get someone who actually speaks the language in here.

satyreyes wrote:

We need to get someone who actually speaks the language in here.

*Raises hand.*

I could clear this line up for you easily if I had the original Japanese script. As it stands, though, I am 99.99% sure that Razara's interpretation (and the series') is accurate, or as close as is reasonable. The "to" at the end pretty much has to be a quotation indicator from the context.

Regarding the shadow girls, remember that Kashira also means "chief," (in this case, the head of the theater group), and is just one of the many terrible puns the shadow girls make that only work in Japanese.

oh it is Touga....how did I manage to skip that? what other roles has that voice actor played?

ohhh okay, I mainly recognize him from the Initial D anime....thanks for that link, Raven.

Ragnarok wrote:

http://www.ohtori.nu/galerie/d/4228-1/S … 09_130.jpg

Looks like Touga to me.

And so smirky.

Sigh so damn tasty.

So wait if that was touga on the phone then did he leave his green haired pal face down in the water?

Onion wrote: Here's a random question, relating to one of those things that, looking back, I never completely understood. The last line in episode 34...
"I watched your face while you slept. Who are you, really?"
God, that scene still makes my skin crawl. So, what did Anthy mean?

I'd like to add some thoughts to this one (although good thoughts have been said already!)

Firstly this gives me chills too. Great line.
I like to think of it as the revelation of a core difference between Utena & Anthy. I shall attempt to explain!

There comes a moment when you know another person to such an intimate level, that you become aware of a unbridgeable gulf between you and them. In other words, attaining much knowledge about something means you inevitably awaken to your overall ignorance. That person (that beloved person) is the "unknowable other". You can't ever truly understand them, no matter how close you get...

In the case of Utena, she's a pretty strange person as it is. I mean, she's the only person at Ohtori who is SO er innocent (*coff gullible*). She looks at the world through some seriously skewy glasses. And this allows her to look at Anthy with love.

Anthy is quite markedly different in her views. She is perhaps...sadly realistic. Utena is deliberately unknowing, but Anthy is omniscient. She doesn't have love left to give anyone. Would you if a million swords of hate were skewering you every moment?! At first glance Utena would have seemed so simple to her (read "an idiot"), and oh so easy to manipulate. But even the hardest heart begins to feel a few pangs of conscience at persistent and undeserved love.

I'm not saying Utena is perfect or even good (just not mentioning her many flaws at the moment). But I am saying that she did care about Anthy, and eventually (in this line, and other places) we see that start to "get to Anthy". She has a moment of profound self-doubt. She views the unknowable other, the possible (she thought impossible) savior, and can't help asking..."Who are you, really?"

She suddenly realizes she can't guess what Utena will do. She can't know Utena, even though she thought she did. Her revelation forces her to ask Utena outright - which of course is a stupid idea as she realizes moments later. Utena doesn't have a clue what the question is! But Anthy wasn't in control of herself in that question. The mask had slipped.

*sigh* Tangent: I love all mask-slippage moments, whether good or bad, loving or evil.

* * *

Okay, time for my random question.
I have always wanted to know...

What the heck happens to the black rose duelists when they lose?
Why do they seem to "die", fall through the chalk-marking of a murdered body on the arena floor, and have their coffin fall into hell/giant-crematorium???
And how does that not kill them, but just steal their memories?
Inquiring minds want to know...hey I know it's all symbolic, but I need some help here on wtf this symbolism is supposed to mean!