Riri-kins wrote:

Atropos wrote:

Utena is very much a Christ figure, displaying love and sacrifice even after the perpetration of the ultimate sin. She sacrifices herself to liberate Anthy (read: Humanity) from eternal torment. She is killed as a result, but comes back to life.

I'm interested in what makes you think she forgives Anthy if they ever reunite. Jesus loves us no matter what we do, but Utena was shocked and chagrined when Anthy stabbed her in the back.

Were we watching the same final episode?   Utena was shocked, yeah.  But then she tried to save Anthy from her coffin.  Reached down to her, shouted her name, was devastated when she fell away.  As Atropos said, that is love and sacrifice for Anthy's liberation even after Anthy betrayed and crucified her -- er, stabbed her.  I didn't see any evidence at all that Utena is going to hold a grudge, or that she feels anything but love for Anthy.  That, plus her actions, is what makes her a real prince. 

Overlord Morgus wrote:

The praise of the virtues is the praise of that which is most injurious to the individual. -Friedrich Nietzsche

I can't presume to speak for you, but as far as I'm concerned, it feels good to help people. Good to be kind, and charitable, and generous. Not as in a 'you'll get rewarded' way, it just feels good.
The idea of the ubermensch is inherently flawed—no matter how brilliant or how awe-inspiring their ultimate goal may be, no single man will triumph if they are in complete opposition to the morals of the rest of society.

Theoretically, the ubermensch would cause weaker wills to be drawn to his ideals, his metaphor was that of the "river pulling the gravel." Personally, I think the "ubermensch" is as much as a herd instinct construct as anything else.

dirufacade wrote:

I'd be delighted to see a legitimate discussion of Utena and Nietzsche, but I think it would merit a separate threads and lengthier citations.

We're still talking about Utena?

Hmm. Maybe it's something that would veer back and forth? I do think that overall, Utena very much wanted to save Anthy, and believes she'd forgive her. (After all, by that point, even Utena has to see that Anthy wasn't exactly acting on her own.)

At the same time, some injuries go deep, and I have to wonder whether Utena's as capable of complete forgiveness as she thinks. Would there be some lingering bitterness? A more argumentative relationship? Utena and Anthy have a relationship that, despite everything, is still built around the personality Anthy displays to her. We find out near the end that isn't necessarily her real personality, and though Utena may love her, she doesn't yet know what it would be like to deal with the 'real' Anthy day to day. At the end of the show, the two are driven together, despite differences and perhaps enormous rifts in their relationship, by need. Things reach a head, and they don't have time to iron out how to deal with the various hurts they've inflicted on each other. In a quieter aftermath, wouldn't some of these things surface?

To read anything into this series is an exercise in make-believe then. We should take it all just at face value. That sounds absolutely brilliant.

The word I believe would be appropriate here is agape.
MORE STUFF: I just had the idea that Utena's receiving the Rose Signet from Dios rather than End of the World could correspond to Jesus' virgin birth, and the duel with Mikage is in some ways similar to casting the merchants out of the temple.

Last edited by Atropos (07-03-2012 12:56:50 PM)