Those are the same pieces of writing this person was posting on the Mark Watches Utena pages. I only started paying attention to hers specifically near the end, and I do really love her takes on the final series episode and the movie; with regard to the latter especially, her interpretation of the movie is very close to mine, albeit with some differences about who had what knowledge and/or motives in particular cases.

But yes, she views almost everything in the franchise - and I mean everything - through the lens of feminism and female oppression/liberation, so if those topics aren't of pressing interest to you, you might certainly find yourself put off. They are of great interest to me, so I liked her focus on it, but there's no doubt that she sometimes extends it to very mundane parts of the show. As I've said before, there are two camps of fallacious illogic that watchers of Utena can fall into:

1: "Utena is part of a unified, deep, and complex message, and everything that is shown and that happens is in the service of that theme."
2: "This is all random nonsense that doesn't mean anything at all."

This person is, with the very best of intentions, definitely in the former camp. A lot of Utena IS about femininity power issues, whether not having it or attempting to gain it, but that theme is not the Grand Unified Theory that Utena is pushing through every word and image.

Still, that's what this person took from it, and it's clear that it was an incredibly positive, even life-changingly beneficial experience for her - and that's fantastic. It makes me incredibly happy that this old show is being rediscovered by a new generation for whom it is doing great things. And they get it. Some of them, anyway. They do their research, spend time thinking and writing, and come to deeply understand the show. That's a wonderful, and very encouraging thing.

Last edited by Aelanie (07-14-2014 03:43:37 PM)

QueenOfJebri wrote:

There doesn't seem to be any implications of MEN SUCK AND ARE DISGUSTING, NO. But another tag, reading "tuxedo mask is awesome and doesn't mind reversing restrictive gender roles" does sort of rub me the wrong way.

However, that's related to me personally disagreeing with reversing restrictive gender roles as a progressive thing, as I mentioned before. It's differing opinions--hers isn't any less valid than mine just because we tackle things from different angles. After all, at least in reversing which gender role is being restricted, it's not the same old "women are useless" thing. I just prefer the idea of men and women fighting alongside each other as equals!

Indeed, I would say that Revolutionary Girl Utena itself is an argument that just reversing restrictive gender roles isn't really all that progressive, as Utena is buying into Akio's game and thus can't really help Anthy until the very end.  That said, I certainly do like people of all genders being able to fight alongside on equal grounds, the fact is that things have been so heavily weighed in favor of dudes for so long that a period of swinging hard the other way is only fair.

Aninha wrote:

I think there is some value in reversing gender roles, or roles in general, because it reminds us the things we associate with one gender or the other are learned, and not some absolute part of nature. I imagine it can be therapeutic too, think of a young boy shamed for his perceived girliness finding comfort in a very girly male character who's respected by everyone in and off a show. Or someone experimenting with their gender before they can figure out their identity.

Yes, absolutely, I do not wish to imply that there is no value to role-reversal, especially in terms of helping to get across that what we think is absolute is in fact almost entirely relative; just that this is a step and not the entirety of what we need to do to become a more equitable and enlightened society.

Sorry, I may have taken too seriously those that were clearly jokes, now that I read better now.

SeizonSenryaku is a dork.

I'm not seeing role reversal in a work of fiction as a bad thing, or a universal criticism of a gender. It might even be necessary to highlight some absurdities.

One of the few wonderful things about Ghosts of Mars, for example, is that Carpenter flips the 50s-riffing gender roles, and so the secretaries are all men, the bosses all women. It's not that the men are weak or stupid, they're just thinking about their nails and make sure there's coffee while the women go out and do the hard work and make sure everyone's safe. Ice Cube is a mad beautiful femme fatale. (And he is, too.) It's not that Carpenter thinks that's how the world should be, and even the creator of Sailor Moon has admitted despite her crush on Tuxedo Mask, he is kinda kinda. Being so, allows Sailor Moon to push past where she would in many other shows, to be dominant or take charge even if it makes her uncomfortable, while still being confidant that he'll be there.

Ikuhara straight up pulls that possibility out of Utena, where all the guys are deeply deeply damaged in the head and most of them are super unreliable, too. If it were inherently sexist or malignant, that would make SKU the worst.

Aninha wrote:

One thing I like about sku is that the men are damaged and it affects how they view and objectify women, but the women themselves are often no better. Saionji only wants Anthy to get back at Touga, but Wakaba only wants him to feel special. Throughout we simply see people using each other as a means to an end, rather than developing healthy relationships

Holy, you nailed it!

SeizonSenryaku wrote:

I think that all the character are in some way damaged and messed up, regardless the sex. The feminist aspect, to me, is brought most from Akio and his relationship with Anthy (even if I don't see her as a total victim, neither Akio as a total perpetrator), Utena, and how they interact with each other, Utena herself in wanting to be a Prince, in Touga with her kind of love towards Utena- but i don't see a classic conflict male/female. I see conflicts of people struggling with their emotions and/or past.

You point is definitely supported by how the major thematic male/female conflict is actually a part of all these illusions people need to break free of. I mean, the one moment where the conflicts center around gender seem to be relegated to what has to do with the duels, performing the role of a prince, possessing the rose bride etc, and it's all part of the fairy tale illusion controlled by Akio (from the phalic tower as masculinity) and powered through Anthy (inside the arena, that you get to by wetting the portal, as femininity). The real world is much more layered and complicated.

SeizonSenryaku wrote:

And thanks for the cheers before xD

All the love. :*

Aninha wrote:

SeizonSenryaku wrote:

I think that all the character are in some way damaged and messed up, regardless the sex. The feminist aspect, to me, is brought most from Akio and his relationship with Anthy (even if I don't see her as a total victim, neither Akio as a total perpetrator), Utena, and how they interact with each other, Utena herself in wanting to be a Prince, in Touga with her kind of love towards Utena- but i don't see a classic conflict male/female. I see conflicts of people struggling with their emotions and/or past.

You point is definitely supported by how the major thematic male/female conflict is actually a part of all these illusions people need to break free of. I mean, the one moment where the conflicts center around gender seem to be relegated to what has to do with the duels, performing the role of a prince, possessing the rose bride etc, and it's all part of the fairy tale illusion controlled by Akio (from the phalic tower as masculinity) and powered through Anthy (inside the arena, that you get to by wetting the portal, as femininity). The real world is much more layered and complicated.

SeizonSenryaku wrote:

And thanks for the cheers before xD

All the love. :*

All the love for these sentences I totally saw this, too! Also, the Rose Garden->the Earth-> female principle, the Tower->the Sky-> the male principle. I didn't think of the arena as  the feminine, althought I DO SAW the water at the entrance of the arena as symbol of feminine, but in a sense of "rebirth" as Utena enter the arena

Last edited by SeizonSenryaku (07-14-2014 08:10:50 PM)

SeizonSenryaku wrote:

All the love for these sentences I totally saw this, too! Also, the Rose Garden->the Earth-> female principle, the Tower->the Sky-> the male principle. I didn't think of the arena as  the feminine, althought I DO SAW the water at the entrance of the arena as symbol of feminine, but in a sense of "rebirth" as Utena enter the arena

Her entering the arena as a rebirth makes way more sense! After all she is getting remodeled to work as Anthy's prince (at least before Akio can take the sword).

I also didn't see the earth and sky parallels. There is that religious passage about "god fertilizing the earth" (I can't remember the exact words).

Okay: to clarify on what I mean by my standard for academic rigor, and why this analysis doesn't meet it.

I do not require that the diction be formal or academic.  I do require that the wording be clear, precise, and accurate.  I mean, a conversational tone is fine.  An informal tone is fine.  Using words that, in the given context, could mean pretty much anything, and constructing your sentences such that the sentence structure doesn't contribute in the slightest to your meaning?  Not fine.

And as far as the idea of "you'll like this if you like feminist interpretations"… no.  I llike feminist readings, but this is not, in my estimation, a good feminist reading of the show.  For starters, I refer back to the whole line-by-line reading and reaction rather than a selection of relevant details.  When making an analysis from a somewhat focused perspective, it really does serve your analysis much better to pick out the events that relate most to the perspective rather than trying to relate every detail to the perspective, because for most details, the analysis from that perspective isn't going to be terribly deep or interesting, so it really is better to just skip over them.

Also, it seems like there's a line of critique, often amateur, which identifies itself as feminist, but is concerned exclusively with the oppression of women and how that is a Bad Thing and you shouldn't do it, and again, this comes across to me as a little shallow.  Feminist analysis has so much more to offer, from the formation of gender, to the objectification (not just name-dropped objectification) and idolization of the feminine, to the effects of the stigmatization of feminine traits, and all of that gets missed in favor of "we know how to solve sexism forever: stop being assholes to women."

Aninha wrote:

Is there some other feminist reading of the show you would recommend?

I think some folks have done pretty solid here. And, we haven't had many consistent posters I'd hesitate to call feminist right up front.

Tatsuya is almost certainly the most underexplored character on IRG (though I like him and I think he's fascinating).  I think the only conversation we've had about him was in the middle of another thread entirely, here.   I certainly don't think he's wishing bad things on Wakaba, but there is definitely some unconscious misogyny there.  His elevator monologue boils down to "if her boyfriend does stuff to her, that will defile her and make her damaged goods, but I'll love her anyway," when we would really prefer to hear "if her boyfriend does stuff with her, that doesn't fucking matter because having sex does not 'defile' a girl, and if I'm lucky enough to have a chance with her someday then of course I'll love her."  But I still hold that on a scale of worst-attitude-about-sexuality-at-Ohtori to best-attitude-about-sexuality-at-Ohtori, Tatsuya ranks pretty high on the list.  It's a weak field, but still.