Stephanie wrote:

Hello, I just finished watching all of Utena episodes today (after downloading all that ogm files) though, still downloading the movie..

As you might know, I am down in the dumps..

I got a couple of questions for the last episode..

1.) Did Utena really died in the end? *sob* *sob *sob*

2.) Why the HECK did Anthy pierced a sword through her, even if 'she' wasn't a 'he' prince? (I just can't understand Anthy's logic.. Doesn't she care about her!? )

3.) If Utena DID die in the TV series, why is Anthy looking for her?




Waaaa****!!! OMG I am sooo lost!! I am so feeling numb, why would Utena die!?

Well - the unfortunate thing is that in a series so packed with metaphor and symbolism, nothing is ever concretely or conclusively answered. Especially the ending.

1) I personally don't think Utena died in physical sense, any more than Anthy would have died had she really been inside a coffin that plummeted from the top of the Dueling Arena.  What happened to her after the final duel is forever a mystery as far as the anime goes. There are many competing theories on what happened to Utena after the anime, including that she was killed, but as far as I know the Be-Papas have been forever silent on the truth of the ending.

The manga is a little more concrete - Anthy tells Touga that Utena IS alive and when she eventually finds her the world will finally gets its revolution.

2) Ultimately, in my opinion, Anthy betrays Utena because she is loyal to her brother. Try not to think of Anthy as a young girl so much as an ancient, jaded witch kept forever young in appearance. This is the witch willing to endure the world's hatred for the sake of her brother, pretended to be Mamiya for who knows how long, and was also willing to pretend to be a loyal, subservient doll to whomever was the Victor.  Stabbing Utena so that Akio's (and hers) carefully laid plan comes to fruition was probably amongst the easiest of her darker actions to perform.  If that isn't enough, Utena sleeping with Akio would have made it a lot easier, since by doing so she is betraying both herself (her nobility, her "princeliness," and her morality) and Anthy. It's unlikely that Anthy was capable of seeing Utena as the one who might actually free her after Utena was with Akio.

3) If Utena DID die, then in my opinion Anthy isn't looking for her so much as she is going to attempt to live up to what Utena believed she could be, now free of Akio. If she didn't die, then obviously yes, she's looking for her.

Maarika wrote:

edit: I was beaten. >_<

That's okay, because we are offering different views on Anthy.

Ashnod wrote:

It's unlikely that Anthy was capable of seeing Utena as the one who might actually free her after Utena was with Akio.

If you think back to episode 37 then it becomes clear that Anthy realised that Utena really thought of her much more than she expected her to. Anthy's suicide attempt indicated that she would rather have it all ended then and there before Utena had to suffer any more on her account. One of my theories is that Anthy had betrayed Utena by offering her to Akio, so she probably hated herself for doing so especially after she found out that Utena had forgiven her and chose her instead of Akio (in the end). Moreover, Utena was still willing to save her (which is the reason why Utena decided to go to the last duel in the end) and Anthy knew that and she was afraid (the major change Utena was trying to bring forth was something unfamiliar and scary to Anthy).
Anthy's stabbing Utena can also be interpreted as her final resignation to her fate (staying with Akio = the never chaning way of life).
Surely, there are tons of reasons behind this scene, not just a single specific reason, but rather a combination of many.

edit:

You sure have many questions.

Stephanie wrote:

1.) Why is Anthy and Utena considered shoujo or yuri? It wasn't really clear their love for each other, (even though Utena did say Anthy was the one making her happy) in the end, Utena still mumbles Akio's name in her sleep, and she denies what Jury said to her that she may have loved Anthy..

Shoujo -  because there's lots of drama. Because it's mainly directed to female audience (as the majority of us on IRG are females). I don't think it is yuri. :/ There was very little yuri content in the series. Unless you count all the subtext. Without that, there's only Juri/Shiori.
Whoa, don't mix up the timelines! The scene with Utena saying she was the happiest when being with Anthy was in the last episode, everything else was way before that. This is her final (and most truthful) realisation about herself and Anthy. Of course she loved Anthy. You don't really go this far if you didn't care for someone that deeply. And Anthy felt the same since she decided to leave Ohtori in the end.

Stephanie wrote:

2.) Also, why the heck did Utena continued to date Akio after she saw Akio and Anthy were making loveydovey? o_O

You're probably referring to the scene where Utena asks Akio out in front of Anthy. It was done out of jealousy and revenge. She wanted to show Anthy that Anthy had treated her awfully, but in the end she still realised that she couldn't be mad at her and that Anthy was also important to her.

Last edited by Maarika (10-01-2007 11:18:32 AM)

Sorry if I ask lotsa questions!

Just curious, cause I myself am confused.. Yeah I guess because Utena was dating him and all this time Akio and Anthy has been doing their incest loveydovey behind her back..

Thanks for clearing things for me!! *arigatou*

Just LAST ONE question (for today, lol)

1.) why did Akio said Utena is dead?
2.) What did Anthy meant he was still living in his coffin?
3.) Jury's story about the forgotten drowned boy who died saving her sister, was implied to Utena in the end.. Everyone kind of had a faded memory of her, some of the students, that is..

Maarika wrote:

Ashnod wrote:

Tthe scene that you're referring to never seemed like Anthy was being honest with Utena to me. I've often thought Anthy's suicide attempt, and her tearful confession, was yet further manipulation on her part to get Utena to continue down the path, something she feared was wavering after Akio's intervention. Or, alternatively, she was fearful that Akio had usurped the place that Anthy had previously held in Utena's heart and the Utena was about to go willingly with Akio's requests. Either way, I don't think Anthy is being selfless in that scene - she had plenty of opportunity prior to the final duel to accurately and thoroughly warn Utena what would happen if she went to the last duel, and did not do it. Even if she is being truly remorseful during her confession, I still think she had every intention of betraying Utena if necessary.

*needs to watch the final episodes again*...

Ah, on the contrary, I belive the suicide attempt scene is one the few scenes where we get a glimpse of the real Anthy. The one manipulating everyone was not Anthy but the Rose Bride/witch (and neither of them is Anthy's real persona). Also, breaking into tears and saying those things to Utena would have been very out of character for a Rose Bride. The maniplative Anthy/Rose Bride does everything passively, not once does she actively interfere in her and Akio's schemes. Every time she does in fact interfere is when she is driven by something from deep within (which is Anthy's true self), for example during Saionji's second duel. Utena plays their game a bit differently (as she's doing it for Anthy's sake most of the time).

Er, I might add more later but my brain is our of order because I need some sleep. Good night!

I dunno...I can understand saying that the Rose Bride act isn't the True Anthy, but Anthy IS the Witch. She chose to seal Dios, she chose to bear the burden of Hate. She actively cost Miki his first duel, arguably cost Juri two of them, went to great lengths to get revenge on Nanami, etc.

satyreyes wrote:

I think what got to me most powerfully the first time I watched the episode was not the backstabbing or the swords; it was Utena saying, right after "dropping" Anthy at the end, "I'm sorry, Himemiya!  I'm sorry for pretending to be a prince."  That's what convinced me that Utena failed.  These days, I'm positive that Utena thinks she failed because Utena -- pardon -- is totally clueless.  She opened the coffin.  She made the swords stop attacking the Rose Bride.  She got Anthy to take her hand.  Liberating Anthy is central to revolution -- and as evidenced by Anthy leaving Ohtori at the end of the episode, Anthy is eminently liberated.  Utena brought the revolution after all.

That, to me, was always the saddest thing about the end -- the fact that Utena brought about the revolution in Anthy's life, but didn't know it. Which is why Anthy's leaving the school is uplifting in two ways -- firstly because she's taken upon herself the power to leave, and secondly because she's off to tell Utena about it. As you can imagine, this made me bawl my eyes out. The tragedy of Utena's character is that although she grew and changed in many different ways through the series, her central innocence never really changed. Utena was convinced she needed to save Anthy herself, never realising that what she had to do was show Anthy the way to do it herself. This is the only reason I like the movie (aside from the fact it's pretty as hell): the movie shows Utena realising this, which is why the metaphor of Utena-as-Car-Anthy-as-Driver is so central to both the movie and series. The major theme of both was that although Utena was necessary to show Anthy the path, Anthy had to walk it herself. Series!Utena didn't realise this; movie!Utena did. Which is sad, but like I said...Anthy's off to find her, have tea, tell her what Utena did for her. It's all good.

...I have to say, though, I know so many people who almost recoiled from the ending, saying how miserable it made them because they thought Utena died and whatnot, but I never saw it that way at all (hilarious, considering I am a career cynicist!). I think it's because I followed the best bit of advice I was ever given about the show. A friend said, when I mentioned I was gearing up to watch the end: "Tell you what, as soon as you get to the very very end -- rewind. Back to the start of the previous episode. Watch the opening credits. That's all." So, I got to the end, numb, did as she said...and voila, it crystallised in my mind. The lyrics to that song, seemingly nonsensical and half-formed throughout the show, suddenly make perfect sense at the end. It is the series, in less than two minutes. I always sort of intended to write my thoughts on the end of the series using that song as the basis, kind of like a essay-handerchief for those in tears at the end, but I never got around to it. Ah, well.

Ashnod wrote:

The manga is a little more concrete - Anthy tells Touga that Utena IS alive and when she eventually finds her the world will finally gets its revolution.

Anthy is the series also seems to believe that Utena is very much alive. She tells Akio that Utena hasn't disappeared/vanished, just that she has left Ohtori.

Stephanie wrote:

1.) why did Akio said Utena is dead?

The fact that Utena didn't appear to have changed anything in her final duel is what makes Akio believe she failed. He doesn't specifically say he thinks she's dead, but that she failed to achieve revolution. It may be that he expected her to carry on similarly to Mikage.

Stephanie wrote:

2.) What did Anthy meant he was still living in his coffin?

That campus of Ohtori is likened to a coffin (shape and all) in that everyone, especially Anthy and Akio, are not truely living. They're held in a state of suspended animation, doomed to repeat their same actions over and over instead of growing and maturing. "If the egg does not hatch, the chick will die without ever having been born." Akio is content with his life in a coffin of his own design, masquerading as the prince he ceased to be so many years ago. But Utena opened Anthy's casket and encouraged her to finally climb out of it/Ohtori and enter the real world.

Stephanie wrote:

3.) Jury's story about the forgotten drowned boy who died saving her sister, was implied to Utena in the end.. Everyone kind of had a faded memory of her, some of the students, that is..

"That's not a question, Professor, but we'll let the viewers judge for themselves."

Utena is forgotten in the end of the series similar to the way Saionji is forgotten before returning during the Black Rose Arc. Some students do remember her, but their memory is fading, showing that she hasn't truely changed their specific lives; hasn't affected them on a real and basic level. If they concentrate, they can still vaguely remember her and what she was like, however the meaning of her behavior is lost on them. The boy in Juri's story is similar in that he specifically did an amazing, selfless and heroic act, yet he's all but forgotten in the end. Dios was once the Prince of the whole world, yet all that remains of him are legends and his corrupt legacy in the form of Akio. Thankfully in Utena's case, Anthy does remember the person, events and, most importantly, what their goal was: to free Anthy from her tortured existence.

Ragnarok wrote:

Stephanie wrote:

1.) why did Akio said Utena is dead?

The fact that Utena didn't appear to have changed anything in her final duel is what makes Akio believe she failed. He doesn't specifically say he thinks she's dead, but that she failed to achieve revolution. It may be that he expected her to carry on similarly to Mikage.

Bingo. Although to Akio's credit, I think he believed Utena had failed not only because of her last words (that we see), but because Anthy remained in the school and at his side. He doesn't freak out until she walks away from him. He looks somewhat harrassed, as he taps away at his computer (was he working on a new set of letters for a new set of duels? Guess we'll never know!), but it bluescreens of DEATH at him only when Anthy removes her glasses and gives them back to him. Akio pretty much knows he's screwed then, because Anthy took Utena's hand and walked away. Metaphors are fun.

Ragnarok wrote:

Utena is forgotten in the end of the series similar to the way Saionji is forgotten before returning during the Black Rose Arc. Some students do remember her, but their memory is fading, showing that she hasn't truely changed their specific lives; hasn't affected them on a real and basic level. If they concentrate, they can still vaguely remember her and what she was like, however the meaning of her behavior is lost on them. The boy in Juri's story is similar in that he specifically did an amazing, selfless and heroic act, yet he's all but forgotten in the end. Dios was once the Prince of the whole world, yet all that remains of him are legends and his corrupt legacy in the form of Akio. Thankfully in Utena's case, Anthy does remember the person, events and, most importantly, what their goal was: to free Anthy from her tortured existence.

I wonder sometimes if it's an indication of the fact that the person most instrumental in the change of one's self is one's self. People are inherently selfish creatures; it's just our nature. In the end, our own lives are the ones we're living; figures we'd be focused on them, yes no? But my point is more that even the greatest deeds do fade with time, and even when someone is bright and shining and oh-so-important one day, they can be gone the next (Wakaba's brief shining time is an example of that, in a minor way).The point is that Anthy remembers her, and that memory has enabled her to change her ways. The other characters? They haven't changed as much...or at least, they haven't changed because of Utena. They still have their own revolutions to work through, and I guess that is what the end scenes are about. They show the characters with the ones who are most able to bring about change in their lives. Utena was Anthy's touchstone, so it's only right Anthy should remember her best.

I suppose it's also a good example of the proverb that no good deed goes unpunished. But that's Dios' motto, too.

Stephanie wrote:

1.) Why'd the swords actually try to attack Utena and Akio after Anthy was saved from it?
(I just find it no reason for it to suddenly atack them)

Well, remember that those swords -- the swords of humanity's hatred -- were originally wielded by our fairy-tale villagers against the Witch for sealing the Prince away.  But by opening the coffin, Utena liberates Anthy from her condition of self-imposed bondage to the swords.  With her gone, the swords turn on the Prince (Dios, now Akio) for not coming to save them from dragons and take them to French restaurants and such.  As for Utena... honestly, I think they were just pissed off and destroying everything at that point, but you could read it to mean that the swords went for the next Prince in line after Akio.

2.) Now, this is what I really want to know, why do you guys keep insisting Utena is still alive? What is it that make you guys believe? Of course, I want her alive too (I felt numb when I found out she died in my first reaction and quickly went here w/o thinking or wasting a second to make me be satisfied). I just don't see any proof she could've been alive in that situation, though Anthy and Akio are both weirdly alive after the incident either..

'Cuz Anthy thinks she's alive   What happened in the tower was an orgy of metaphors.  Anthy and Akio didn't really die; the planetarium wasn't really destroyed.  So there's no reason to think Utena did die.  On top of that, there's the episode title: "Itsuka Isshoni Kagayaku" -- "Someday We'll Shine Together."  Could just be a hopeful sentiment, but I take it as a statement of fact.

3.) Did Anthy reincarnated? When she was young, she got thousands of swords pierced through her, or was is just a symbolism? (Though I do remember Anthy asking Utena if she believes in Reincarnation)

Heh, that's a funny point about the conversation about reincarnation!  Anthy does like asking those probing questions.  The metaphysics are a little weird, but I guess intuitively I want to say that the Witch getting "killed" protecting the Prince is what sealed the spell and initiated the spira mirabilis of failed revolutions.  I don't know whether she literally died and literally reincarnated, unfortunately.

1.) I'm not sure now, if Akio is really doing this "World Revolution" for Himemiya, in the end, yes he was crying to Anthy saying he loves her.. He even promised Utena that she be princess of the castle, I think he was just after being 'Dios' again.. And, compared to Utena, even if Utena was wounded, she tried opening the door no matter what while he was sipping his stupid cocktail

Heh heh heh.  I'm going to let Gio field this one if she wants it, but you're asking the right questions.

2.) I find Dios a coward, in the end, when the swords have stopped piercing through Himemiya, Dios rode a horse and ran away.. (what a prince..) As Akio said before, we are limited in our views and the way we perceive things.. heh

We had a thread about Dios's role in the last episode a while back, and we didn't reach a real agreement about him.  To me, riding off into the sunset says "my work here is done."  He cajoled Utena into doing what she knew was right; the work itself is Utena's to do.

Utena never really cared about revolution, all she wanted was to free Himemiya..

Bam!  And perhaps that's what qualified her to bring the revolution.

Stephanie wrote:

I see, of course, it is just an illusion afterall.. But Utena left without saying goodbye to Anthy..
Or maybe, as the ending said, she thought she failed..

The reason I believed she really died was, Akio said this match is not a "Play Duel" and she'd be suprised how a real match goes.. And Jury's story of the drowned boy..

Well, no one really knows for sure.  There's a picture in one of the art books that appears to show a tearful post-series Anthy reuniting with Utena, but we can't be sure that's when the picture was "taken," and even if we could, whether a picture in an art book is canon is questionable.  But I'm not worried.  Utena's alive -- just grown up.  Grown-ups don't get to live at Ohtori.

Anyway, who's Gio? Ehh? o_O

Gio is Giovanna, aka Mrs. Ohtori, aka proprietor of this forum and Utena fansite Empty Movement, aka God.    She has what you might call a bit of a thing for Akio analysis.

Last edited by satyreyes (10-01-2007 08:00:16 PM)

*sigh*

Anyway, I await for Mrs. Akio Ohtori's opinion then!


OMG, everytime I watch the ending, I get teary eyed when I see Utena's crying face when she opened the coffin.. T__T

It's just, so sweet and.. I don't know how else to describe it.. T__T

<--This is suppose to be a crying face, right?

EDIT:
I put "Akio" before Ohtori

Last edited by Stephanie (10-01-2007 08:13:21 PM)

satyreyes wrote:

Anyway, who's Gio? Ehh? o_O

Gio is Giovanna, aka Mrs. Ohtori, aka proprietor of this forum and Utena fansite Empty Movement, aka God.    She has what you might call a bit of a thing for Akio analysis.

'A bit of a thing', eh? You realize now I feel the contrarian in me wanting to refuse to talk about Akio in this thread.

But uhhh...apparently the compulsion to yap about Akio is greater than my contrarianism. That's...impressive.

Stephanie wrote:

1.) I'm not sure now, if Akio is really doing this "World Revolution" for Himemiya, in the end, yes he was crying to Anthy saying he loves her.. He even promised Utena that she be princess of the castle, I think he was just after being 'Dios' again.. And, compared to Utena, even if Utena was wounded, she tried opening the door no matter what while he was sipping his stupid cocktail

The problem with Akio is you have to decide where the lie is. He wants to regain the power of Dios. He loves Anthy and wants to save her. He wants Utena to become his princess. He wants a prince's sword. His behavior and his intentions and the things he says just don't line up, so it's up to the viewer to figure out. I think in the case of the set of things you've given, the tell is only one of those takes place when no one is paying attention to Akio. He pursues this ambiguous revolution for Anthy, but she's standing right with him for it. He cries and says he loves her, but she's in front of him. He promises Utena a place in the castle when Utena's listening. But no one's paying attention to him when he sips his drink. He's effectively alone and doing what's in his nature to do: relax and sit back, safe and satisfied in the knowledge that his darling sister suspended above will continue to bear that horrific burden. Anthy's final words to him suggest she's known all along what Akio was really about, and that is playing prince in his coffin. Playing prince, he never intended to really make himself one, for himself or for Anthy. Why would he? Everything Akio wants is in his coffin. Doesn't he seem a little self-centered to want to be a prince and help princesses? And for his desire for power...that's just him being your garden variety fallen adult. He's powerhungry but his definition of power is something selfish and controlling and dominating. It lines up quite neatly with what most adults in this world think 'power' is, but the show preaches another kind of power, that it says adults have a hard time possessing, recognizing, or understanding. The power to change things, to show someone who they really are and who they can really be, the power of selflessness and inner strength and blah blah all that hippie heart heart shoujo stuff.

So yeah. Akio is a selfish spoiled child in the body of a man, no conscience, just the drives of pleasure and preservation, perfectly happy to live out the ages of time in a coffin where he's God tossing about his playthings for his own amusement, with no concern for what he does to them. All that stuff about wanting to become a prince? Bullshit. Does he love Anthy? Probably as much as is possible for him, but at the end of the day, it's obviously not enough to really want to save her from the swords. It's not even enough for him to make a token gesture of distress at her suffering. Why would he, he's got a pina colada to drink.

There. Happy satyr?