I agree that she probably knows "subconsciously" and manages to convince herself that she doesn't. I think the really cute thing is how the viewer is made to do exactly the same thing. At least I was completely oblivious up until the very final shot: "wait... she did WHAT? With AKIO!!?". So we get to go through the same process of ignoring the obvious cues...

Giovanna wrote:

Riri-kins wrote:

he probably told her he loved her.

Somehow I doubt that. Utena's behavior is many things after she sleeps with him, but it's not reflective of someone that got told that, and I don't give her enough credit to hear 'I love you' and not run right into brick walls with it. Besides, it would have offered a way around her guilt. He loves her! I mean, yeah he's engaged and all but LOVE OVERRIDES EVERYTHING YA YA YA? Wakaba barks something similar a few times but I think a lot of the source of Utena's guilt concerning Akio is that it's not driven by love, for either of them.

Somehow I doubt Giovanna. Though Akio probably isn't the kind of guy who needs to tell a girl some bullshit about loving her just to sleep with her , Utena constantly seems torn apart due to what happens because she is concerned about the love she feels. Akio doesn't pull the same stuff with her that he does on everyone else, letting Touga do the talking and then showing up waving his big ass car around; he slowly courts Utena over the course of two seasons. Utena's biggest conflict both immediately before and after that time seemed to be between her love for Akio and her love for Anthy. In episode 34, Akio pretty brings this to her attention by asking about her feelings for Anthy and then about her feelings for him. Her love for Anthy is like that for a sister or princess, and her love for Akio is her love for a father and a prince. Here we see the essential conflict of Utena's nature, either to be a helpless princess or a deluded prince. She ultimately takes a third option, but that's a topic for another thread.

I'm sure she still doesn't really get it.

"You see Miss Utena, when a man is trying to manipulate and psychologically torture a girl...or a guy, he will insert his pe--"

"BOOOOOOOOOORRRRRINNNNNNGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, I'm sorry Anthy, were you talking?"

"...*sigh* No, Miss Utena."

That's about how I picture that conversation going.

I always thought this scene was hilarious, why was why I loved it to so much. But the rest of the episode

Whenever it is that they check into the same room together. Her nervousness throughout that episode sort of indicates to me she knows what's coming, the way she keeps talking about nothing very important. It seems like nervous babble.

Setsuna wrote:

And...if this was the real world...Isn't there an age of consent...?

Yeah, it's 13 in Japan, I think.

Although I don't think blabbering on and on about the lunch for tomorrow can be considered "consent."

She really seemed to be distracting herself during that to me. I'm also going to jump on the "exorcize is a way to shave off stress and anxiety" bandwagon.

Atropos wrote:

Alright, this has been making a stir as of late, so I'll ask the obvious question:
Was this a rape or not?

It depends. What is Japan's age of consent?

It could be rape by modern Japan's laws if its' a human male in his 20s and a 14 yr old girl . . . but fact is the man is a 1000+ yr old god by strict definition; that, and part of him still is the 12 yr old-ish "Dios".

And, being that Akio and Anthy have existed since ancient times - where parents arranged for their daughters to be married off by like 13 or even younger - I don't think the concept of statutory rape will quite register in either of their minds

Edied to add:
As for Utena doing the stretching in the mini-skirt and then showering and all that jazz . . . she has to know what was going to happen, just like she must clearly recognize Akio's red car to be identical to the ones spouting out from the Duelling Arena.  She is seduced, but never made to do what she does not want done.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (12-17-2012 05:02:35 PM)

Atropos wrote:

Alright, this has been making a stir as of late, so I'll ask the obvious question:
Was this a rape or not?

Honestly? No. Was she betrayed? Manipulated? Used? Oh, most definitely! With bells on! However, as someone who was once taken advantage of in a broadly similar manner, it wasn't rape.

If she were in the same country as I am, where the age of consent is sixteen (fun fact: in Australia, you are legally able to have sex several years before you're legally allowed to drink or drive a car or gamble...hmm) I'd be there at the door with a large stick before you could say, 'mental and emotional maturity does count, you know!' but in Japan, there seems to be a certain cultural push towards a child going straight from childhood into being a young adult. Not much by way of teenage years. I could be wrong about this, but...it does carry a sort of implication that the Japanese are introduced to certain concepts much sooner than Westerners are. This may not seem to work in practice, i.e Utena, however. So while Akio and Anthy did one hell of a number on her, others of her age might be expected to have more tools to defend themselves. A Japanese person might well interpret the entire situation quite differently to the way we do; I think that this is an important point to factor in.

So, here's what we have: a teenager who, in Japanese society, should have at least the basic concepts of sex and love in place. And there's Akio, the seducer, the tempter, the Morning Star. See, thing is, did Akio ever actually coerce her? Lie to her? I don't think he did. He laid the track, he manipulated Utena with a terrifying brilliance, he hedged, he omitted, he mislead... but there was always the choice for Utena: all she had to do was say no. Akio led her to his bed but he didn't make her lie down on it.

He manipulated the living fuck out of her.... but ultimately, all he did was show her the way. She walked there herself. We could argue that she didn't know any better, and that's true... to an extent. But the thing is, she had her doubts, she knew what she was doing with Akio was wrong. Admittedly, she thought she was doing wrong for all the wrong reasons. But it does prove that she had some of the tools she needed to defend herself. Even if they weren't quite the right ones.

So, at the end of the day, Utena wasn't raped. But Akio is still a fucking paedophilic incestuous parasitical mongrel regardless.

Romanticide wrote:

I think the bath was the crucial point, why? because I read somewhere that is very typical from japanese people to take a bath or invite your partner to use the bath before having sex and that colored my whole perspective XD

You are correct.

Lurv wrote:

Makes sense to me. Clean people are more sexy, right?

Japanese (and most dignified Asians) fear bringing embarrassment upon oneself by one's own laziness/self-neglect.  Keeping clean before sex is the least one can do to avoid coming off potentially repulsive to the other partner.