This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#51 | Back to Top03-30-2008 11:48:25 AM

Sey
Our Sicilian Prince
From: S. Cataldo, Sicily, Italy
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 268
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

I've edited the game's page, this is so cool emot-dance
Too bad that we can't upload images, there's no chance to use an external image hosting for that?


Your lovely "That's Amore" IRG User.

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#52 | Back to Top03-30-2008 12:08:48 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

So I was thinking, as a general rule, we might be well served in ensuring that fact and opinion are clearly separated.  I definitely like the idea of having a repository that includes our opinions and theories.  Obviously we can start sorting that all out when there's more content to sort. ;-) But I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how to go about it.

One thing I thought of was, for essays or symbolism... Wikipedia uses those series markers, where it says, "this article is part of Wikipedia's series on __subject__."   Another thought was that any article that includes both fact & opinion should have two separate headings, in the long run.  :-)


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#53 | Back to Top03-30-2008 01:17:58 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

Rhy, in principle that sounds like a good idea.  In practice, it's not always so easy to keep fact and opinion separated.  For example, it's very hard to write a coherent paragraph about Touga's behavior in the third and fourth arcs without drawing conclusions about his goals and motivations.  I ended up deciding that as long as I was clear about the difference between fact and judgment, and presented both sides of any long-standing fandom disputes, there was nothing wrong with letting the two intermingle.  The alternative was "in the last two arcs, stuff happened; click here to see an explanation of what some people think the stuff was," which is clunky in an article that's trying to summarize Touga's character arc.  If you can find a fluid way to separate fact and opinion, I'm all for it.  Personally, I'd like to see someone write an essay about Touga's motives, which could then be linked in the Analysis section.

Edit: I'd like to add that one of my priorities in helping out with the wiki is keeping it from turning into the worst aspects of Wikipedia, with edit wars over NPOV and such.  If that bullshit starts cropping up, I'm gone.  As long as opinion is not presented as fact, that's NPOV enough for me.

Last edited by satyreyes (03-30-2008 01:21:36 PM)

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#54 | Back to Top03-30-2008 02:02:42 PM

mazoboom
The Boom King
From: New Orleans
Registered: 09-08-2007
Posts: 450
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

Sey wrote:

I've edited the game's page, this is so cool emot-dance
Too bad that we can't upload images, there's no chance to use an external image hosting for that?

rhyaniwyn enabled them now!

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#55 | Back to Top03-30-2008 04:29:42 PM

Sey
Our Sicilian Prince
From: S. Cataldo, Sicily, Italy
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 268
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

I also agree with Saty, we must be neutral when writing this. However writing something in a NPOV for SKU is very hard, since it is fullfilled with symbolism. I think we just have to separate personal essays and the neutral facts(for example, we can do a separete page and link the analysis of EM).

Edit: I'd like to add that one of my priorities in helping out with the wiki is keeping it from turning into the worst aspects of Wikipedia, with edit wars over NPOV and such.  If that bullshit starts cropping up, I'm gone.

I don't think you need to do this, since we are all kind people emot-rofl


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#56 | Back to Top03-30-2008 06:37:40 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

I don't actually know what NPOV stands for, since I've never been involved with a wiki.

I also don't think there's any need for an argument to start or for anyone to stop contributing. 

What I posted was a request for suggestions on how best to make clear what statements are "fact" and what statements are opinion and also for ideas on how to integrate the analysis and symbolism sections I hope we will have.

But I'll stay out of it since I doubt I'll have time to write much and leave the shape of it to the people who do write.


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#57 | Back to Top03-31-2008 12:20:22 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

Rhy, NPOV means "Neutral Point of View."  On Wikipedia, most edit wars not involving vandalism are fought over pieces of articles that one side alleges to promote someone's point of view rather than a fact.  A typical example might occur if someone tried to insert the following into an article on the Iraq War:

A hypothetical Wikipedian wrote:

In spite of an absence of international consensus or backing, Bush made the decision to order the Army into battle.

One side will try to block this sentence from being added to the article, claiming that the subtext of the phrasing is that it was improper for Bush to go to war absent international approval -- an opinion, or "POV," rather than a fact.  The other side will argue that this subtext does not exist, and that the lack of international support is a salient detail which is needed to understand the context of Bush's decision.  For some reason, people who fall on the former side will tend to be pro-war, and people on the latter side will tend to be anti-war; funny coincidence, that.  Bitter arguments will ensue over phrasing, and no one will be able to come up with an alternative that everyone agrees is NPOV.  In the end a vote will be taken, and then a moderator will ignore the vote and do what he or she thinks proper.  Sometimes the system works, sometimes not, but it always creates acrimony that I'd rather the Glossaire avoid.

I suspect the best solution will be to have some pages which are "fact" -- that is, they contain minimal POV -- and others which are "essays," which will involve analysis and judgment calls on the part of their authors.  Even the fact pages, though, are going to have POV in them; it's pretty much inevitable.  Their authors should try to remain neutral, presenting both sides of any controversy rather than promoting their own side, but some of that bias is going to come through, because we're human.  My point is simply that we shouldn't make a big deal about this.

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#58 | Back to Top03-31-2008 12:36:16 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

I signed up so I'll try to contribute a bit.


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Believing in True Friendship Since 2008.

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#59 | Back to Top03-31-2008 12:45:03 AM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: Utena Wiki

I've joined as well emot-smile

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#60 | Back to Top03-31-2008 02:40:54 PM

bella
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 11-04-2006
Posts: 581

Re: Utena Wiki

Ah, I'm so proud of everyone! Thank you so much for doing all of this work. It's really fantastic. I would be contributing more, but I ended up in the emergency room on Friday and now I'm recovering. As soon as I get better, I'll be writing plenty.


Happy Holidays Everyone! :3

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#61 | Back to Top03-31-2008 08:25:19 PM

BalamiyaVardihi
High Tripper
From: New Jersey
Registered: 12-16-2007
Posts: 243

Re: Utena Wiki

bella wrote:

I ended up in the emergency room on Friday and now I'm recovering. As soon as I get better, I'll be writing plenty.

Are you okay? emot-frown


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#62 | Back to Top03-31-2008 08:43:59 PM

BioKraze
Faceless Master
From: Yuma, Arizona (USA)
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 8282

Re: Utena Wiki

Yikes. Emergency room BAAAAAD. Echoing Balamiya's sentiments here. You okay, bella? I hope nothing too terrible happened... emot-frown


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#63 | Back to Top04-01-2008 07:08:53 PM

bella
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 11-04-2006
Posts: 581

Re: Utena Wiki

Thank you very much everyone. Basically, I had been suffering from really, really terrible ovarian pain for a week. I talked to the nurse at my college, and she wanted me to go to the ER for an examination. This lead to my very first internal exam from a gynecologist ever...and it was extremely painful. He did, however, find two cysts, and I need to see someone for a follow up so that we can decide what to do about these really bad pains that accompany my cycle. I was given Vicodin to help me deal with the pain, and it's helping, but I still feel a lot of it. emot-frown It was a big, scary ordeal for me, but in the scheme of things, it's really no big deal. Gio has gone through so much more, so if I want to be brave, I look at what she's gone through emot-smile

Thanks for worrying about me!etc-loveetc-love

Last edited by bella (04-01-2008 07:09:34 PM)


Happy Holidays Everyone! :3

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#64 | Back to Top04-01-2008 07:38:21 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

bella wrote:

Thanks for worrying about me!etc-loveetc-love

How could we do anything else? emot-frown

:hug: Good luck and keep us informed. Here's hoping the cysts are still small enough to remove by less invasive means. emot-frown


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#65 | Back to Top04-02-2008 03:05:49 AM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

I can help if you want the Glossaire d'Utena to have an spanish version *shy voice*

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#66 | Back to Top04-02-2008 11:46:19 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

Well, we have Spanish members...there are Spanish fans...I can't think why we shouldn't have Spanish articles! Go for it Epi!


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#67 | Back to Top04-02-2008 12:49:09 PM

bella
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 11-04-2006
Posts: 581

Re: Utena Wiki

Giovanna wrote:

:hug: Good luck and keep us informed. Here's hoping the cysts are still small enough to remove by less invasive means. emot-frown

I hope so too. The ER doctor was in a bit of a hurry, of course, so he didn't really tell me much. It could take months to get me a gynecologist appointment, but I really hope that birth control will fix the problem. If not, maybe a simple outpatient procedure. I will definitely keep everyone informed. I love you very much. etc-love 

Epi_lepsia wrote:

I can help if you want the Glossaire d'Utena to have an spanish version *shy voice*

That would be wonderful, please go ahead. emot-smile


Happy Holidays Everyone! :3

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#68 | Back to Top04-02-2008 04:36:29 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

Epi_lepsia wrote:

I can help if you want the Glossaire d'Utena to have an spanish version *shy voice*

Assuming we get this puppy up and running, you could serve as a translator where you take the documents and rewrite them into Spanish, that would be a lot of work thou.

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#69 | Back to Top04-02-2008 04:44:10 PM

Asfalolh
Knight of Gates
From: Barcelona (Catalonia)
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 2005

Re: Utena Wiki

Tamago wrote:

Epi_lepsia wrote:

I can help if you want the Glossaire d'Utena to have an spanish version *shy voice*

Assuming we get this puppy up and running, you could serve as a translator where you take the documents and rewrite them into Spanish, that would be a lot of work thou.

Well, we can start a Spanish Translation Committee. I'd like to help, too. emot-wink

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#70 | Back to Top04-02-2008 05:18:27 PM

BalamiyaVardihi
High Tripper
From: New Jersey
Registered: 12-16-2007
Posts: 243

Re: Utena Wiki

bella wrote:

Thank you very much everyone. Basically, I had been suffering from really, really terrible ovarian pain for a week. I talked to the nurse at my college, and she wanted me to go to the ER for an examination. This lead to my very first internal exam from a gynecologist ever...and it was extremely painful. He did, however, find two cysts, and I need to see someone for a follow up so that we can decide what to do about these really bad pains that accompany my cycle. I was given Vicodin to help me deal with the pain, and it's helping, but I still feel a lot of it. emot-frown It was a big, scary ordeal for me, but in the scheme of things, it's really no big deal. Gio has gone through so much more, so if I want to be brave, I look at what she's gone through emot-smile

Thanks for worrying about me!etc-loveetc-love

You're welcome, bella! Ich, I've heard about ovarian cysts; here's to hoping you didn't get a dermoid cyst. Those are...just nasty. And very ugly.


Twirling round with this familiar parabol
Spinning, weaving round each new experience.
Recognize this as a holy gift and
Celebrate this chance to be alive and breathing

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#71 | Back to Top04-02-2008 08:46:05 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

I just posted the wiki's first original essay!  emot-keke  It's an offshoot of an old forum discussion about the Magic: the Gathering colors of the Student Council members.  Nerdy but fun, and it's not deep enough to go on Empty Movement.

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#72 | Back to Top04-02-2008 10:31:57 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

Nice essay! I have a different feel for the colours than where they are now, since I haven't been keeping up with the evolution of Magic over the years; but you sold me on the assignments handily.


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#73 | Back to Top04-03-2008 03:41:31 AM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

Asfalolh wrote:

Tamago wrote:

Epi_lepsia wrote:

I can help if you want the Glossaire d'Utena to have an spanish version *shy voice*

Assuming we get this puppy up and running, you could serve as a translator where you take the documents and rewrite them into Spanish, that would be a lot of work thou.

Well, we can start a Spanish Translation Committee. I'd like to help, too. emot-wink

I have a complete spanish crew behind me. Don't worry, we can manage it D:

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#74 | Back to Top04-03-2008 06:33:40 PM

bella
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 11-04-2006
Posts: 581

Re: Utena Wiki

satyreyes wrote:

I just posted the wiki's first original essay!  emot-keke  It's an offshoot of an old forum discussion about the Magic: the Gathering colors of the Student Council members.  Nerdy but fun, and it's not deep enough to go on Empty Movement.

Thanks satyreyes! It's an awesomely cool essay I must say.

Also, medical update! I was misdiagnosed the first time. I went back to the ER last night because I was in such terrible pain. The doctor who examine me this time told me that the other doctor didn't treat me properly. We found out that I have a UTI, and that's what's causing me so much pain. I had it for over a week while on my cycle, not knowing what it was. So it had plenty of time to grow into something really nasty. It's possible that I have a cyst and a UTI, but I wasn't given another pelvic exam to know for sure. But I started taking antibiotics today, so I should feel better within 48 hours. Yay! I've never been more glad to have a UTI in my life. emot-dance


Happy Holidays Everyone! :3

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#75 | Back to Top04-03-2008 10:13:59 PM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: Utena Wiki

ooooh, those suck. But I'm really glad you've gotten a correct diagnosis.


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
-Truck North
Honorary Hat Mafia Member

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