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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top12-10-2007 07:00:45 PM

spiralstairs
Anthy Assailer
Registered: 12-01-2007
Posts: 76

Anthy's magic

(The remaining storyboards will be posted soon. I swears it.)

I was pondering something in regard to episode 34. Over the course of the series, we see bits of magic from "the witch", like the sword out of chest, disappearing suddenly, transmogrifying into a boy without need of cardboard box, etc. Something kept coming back to me from episode 34. Is it me or does it seem a bit much for her to pull a *woosh!* "my brother is sealed away!" *sparkly lights*.

A million apologies if this has already come up before, but what are the chances she made a two-backed beast with Dios before addressing the crowd? Their world seemed to be based off something innocent, hence the prince's need to rescue helpless princesses. Sex changes things, it's part of the corrupt adult world, so is that possibly why Dios grew up to become Akio and it was Anthy who was blamed for his falling?

Mea culpa. There are so many topics here I haven't read yet, but my brain has been bugging me about this for weeks. XD Back to homework! Danke!

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#2 | Back to Top12-10-2007 11:10:47 PM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: Anthy's magic

The show seems pretty admant that the adult world is corrupt, or at least, not as good as other people seem to think it is. Sometimes it seems like the only absolute in the whole show. After all, what are the representations of adulthood that we have? Akio, Mikage in a sense, Mrs. Ohtori, and Tokiko. A villain, a poptart fiend, a skank* and a cypher. Sex is portrayed as a very adult thing, and in real life, it tends to be. Not neccessairly adult as in age, but adult as in maturity level, coping abilities and mental/emotional state.

It's concieveable (pardon the pun) that Lil' Anthy and Dios could've macked it, but I choose to believe they didn't. Dios wasn't a Prince in the way that Utena became a Prince. At the end, whatever your opinion on the idea is, if you accept the thought that Utena became a Prince, it's a flawed sort of Prince. A working model. Dios is like the drawingboard ideal. He has flaws, yes, but they're because he's not meant to represent a working model. He's like a cardboard mockup, in a way. He represents the ideal of the Prince as opposed to the truism of it.

It just doesn't seem like the sort of thing that even a dying Dios would do or even allow. End of story. Because he is a personification of princly ideals, it would be out of that frame for him to have sex with her. It jars to me and doesn't flow. So then the question becomes "Is Anthy capable of rape?" And there... well, I'm not as solidly on ground. Rape, psychologically, is about the need to exert power and/or dominance over another person. For her to choose to have sex with him, however it happens would be about being the dominant person in the relationship for once. She certainly attempts to be dominant outside, and her passive aggressive streak is vicious.

I'm totally talking out my ass here, but I've always felt that Anthy has a lot more power then she chooses to show, more then maybe even Akio quite realizes the depth of.

spiralstairs wrote:

transmogrifying into a boy without need of cardboard box

Are you a Calvin and Hobbes fan? Because if you are, we might just have to practice babymaking. etc-love

*Note: I mean skank in the way that I kinda' want to grow up and be her.


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

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#3 | Back to Top12-10-2007 11:25:51 PM

spiralstairs
Anthy Assailer
Registered: 12-01-2007
Posts: 76

Re: Anthy's magic

morosemocha wrote:

spiralstairs wrote:

transmogrifying into a boy without need of cardboard box

Are you a Calvin and Hobbes fan? Because if you are, we might just have to practice babymaking. etc-love

*giggles like a nutter and runs off to get the equipment for Calvinball*

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#4 | Back to Top12-10-2007 11:40:47 PM

OnionPrince
Covert Diarist
From: Nagoya
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 876

Re: Anthy's magic

That brings up an interesting point, though. Akio and Anthy must have started humping at some point, and by the time the series is set, they've been at it so long that it's completely routine. Also, Anthy doesn't seem entirely passive, so it could have been her to initiate it in the first place. I rather doubt it started in the shed, though, but it's TMI for me anyway.

Also, while the adult world is shown as corrupt, I don't think sexual purity plays that big a role. The show doesn't seem puritantically preachy in that respect. I have a hunch that Dios was not unfamiliar with sexuality. In the Shadow Girls' play, his line after he (somewhat) solved each problem was "you promised me a kiss!" I'm sure Dios would act like a character from a stereotypical romance novel in such a role.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure snogging your sibling is at very least a symptom of unprinceliness. emot-tongue

On an unrelated topic, I think we'd all be better off if Calvinball was an Olympic sport.

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#5 | Back to Top12-10-2007 11:54:59 PM

spiralstairs
Anthy Assailer
Registered: 12-01-2007
Posts: 76

Re: Anthy's magic

OnionPrince wrote:

That brings up an interesting point, though. Akio and Anthy must have started humping at some point, and by the time the series is set, they've been at it so long that it's completely routine. Also, Anthy doesn't seem entirely passive, so it could have been her to initiate it in the first place. I rather doubt it started in the shed, though, but it's TMI for me anyway.

Yeah. It seems a bit odd for them to keep saying he's been sealed away. Something must have made it permanent, and while the sweaty chest, open coat and heavy breathing is due to him overworking himself (*snortsandgiggleswaytoomuch*), it seems like something big had to happen. It's too simple to say "I've sealed him away". Sex has become such a critical part of the series, it seems like it'd be that key to what set everything in motion for the series.

Also, this might just me being slow, but how come Dios has the figure of a young adult when he first appears to her, the figure of a child when he's showing her Anthy and talking about how he envies those who can die, and then becomes an adult when he gives her the ring? The appearances change too much for it to be model sheet neglecting and if it's supposed to give a hint of Akio, why change him to a child for that one part?

OnionPrince wrote:

On an unrelated topic, I think we'd all be better off if Calvinball was an Olympic sport.

Bwahahaha. Footie riots are bad enough. Can you imagine what they'd be like for Calvinball? And would girls be allowed or do you have to be a member of the GROSS Club to play? emot-biggrin

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#6 | Back to Top12-10-2007 11:55:20 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
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Re: Anthy's magic

OnionPrince wrote:

I have a hunch that Dios was not unfamiliar with sexuality. In the Shadow Girls' play, his line after he (somewhat) solved each problem was "you promised me a kiss!" I'm sure Dios would act like a character from a stereotypical romance novel in such a role.

It's worth noting that the "promised kiss" is interrupted each time. Possibly to show that Dios was too pure for even that, it could also be a reference to his inability to commit to any single person since he must constantly act as The Prince for the entire world. Or it could just be the shadow girls being kooky. Personally I think it's a mixture of the first two, primarily the second.

I also tend to think that the sexual relationship didn't develope until some time after Anthy sealed Dios away. Either in the process which caused him to become Akio or perhaps the final step itself. As to Anthy's witchly powers, I consider them a product of Dios's seal: Anthy isn't a prince (in the traditional sense, I know there's a thread about this. emot-smile ) and she doesn't have the full Power of Miracles, but she does have some access to it, enough to account for some of the stranger things she does. How exactly she sealed Dios away in the first place... I don't think it can be explained without metaphor.


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#7 | Back to Top12-11-2007 02:16:59 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Anthy's magic

I take Akio's word for it when he says that when his sister became known as a Witch, Dios the Prince vanished from the World.

How you want to interpret that...well.  Maybe she became a Witch by sleeping with her brother.  But I've always taken it to mean...the moment the World turned on Anthy and lynched her, labeling her a Witch, Dios stopped being a Prince.  How could he have any desire to be a Prince and rescue the people who had stabbed his sister?  I tend to think the sex happened in their joint us-against-the-world suffering after that.

As for Anthy's magic...most of the manifestations we see are subtle.  I think her magic permeates Ohtori and influences a lot of what occurs.  That's pretty strong.

I tend to take the second Tale of the Rose as being closer to the literal truth than the first, though the first shows what is probably an accurate representation of the darker half of Anthy's darker motives for "sealing" Dios.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (12-11-2007 02:19:52 PM)


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#8 | Back to Top12-12-2007 03:49:49 AM

OnionPrince
Covert Diarist
From: Nagoya
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 876

Re: Anthy's magic

Ragnarok wrote:

It's worth noting that the "promised kiss" is interrupted each time. Possibly to show that Dios was too pure for even that, it could also be a reference to his inability to commit to any single person since he must constantly act as The Prince for the entire world. Or it could just be the shadow girls being kooky. Personally I think it's a mixture of the first two, primarily the second.

That's true. I think that if it was an actual metaphor (or something other than the shadow girls being kooky), it could be more insight into Akio's character. If Dios is indeed too pure to receive the rewards a princess can bestow on him, and basically gives his life saving the world for nothing, I can definitely see his alter ego's motivation for sexually dominating everyone he feels like.

(By the way, that scene reminded me a lot of the old Legend of Zelda cartoon. Link was always trying to get Zelda to kiss him, but he got shot down every time. Poor hero. Anyone else remember that, or am I just the biggest nerd ever?)

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#9 | Back to Top12-13-2007 11:10:41 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Anthy's magic

I'm not sure I have much to say here that hasn't been said.  Good insights all around.  I'm not sure when Dios and Anthy had their first Noodle Incident, but I'd guess it was after Anthy sealed Dios.  I don't know whether Dios was making noodles with the princesses, either, but I'm not sure how much it matters; if he was, it was princely and altruistic sex, like everything else Dios does.  His first experience with corrupt, debased, "adult" sex was certainly with Anthy.

Incidentally, spiralstairs, props for the transmogrification thing.  Calvin definitely should've (accidentally, of course, or due to Hobbesian intervention) transmogrifed himself into a girl at some point.  That would've been a hilarious arc.

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#10 | Back to Top12-14-2007 03:54:40 PM

NajiMinkin
Hacker Ringleader
From: The Incredible Edible Egg
Registered: 06-23-2007
Posts: 2537

Re: Anthy's magic

You know, when I watched that episode, I thought she'd just told the angry mob that she sealed him away to get them to leave him alone, not expecting that whole million swords deal. I thought little Dios was lying there in exhaustion and that, by letting his dearest sister be the one girl in the world he couldn't save (partially due to the sexual connotations of "saving" a young girl), gradually started becoming End of the World. That he sealed shadow of himself up in that castle with his princely abilities and then finally succumbed to becoming Akio after he informed Utena of the situation. Maybe why he and Anthy started bumping uglies was to make up for the fact that as pure children they couldn't, which is what led to both their downfalls...?

Yeah, I don't know. I think Anthy was capable of whatever she wanted to be capable of. emot-confused

Last edited by NajiMinkin (12-14-2007 03:56:58 PM)


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#11 | Back to Top12-14-2007 09:36:56 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Anthy's magic

What's really strange is that the duelists have no curiousity about Anthy's magic. They never ask where she got that fabulous sword that they all desire or wonder why she cannot use it herself. They all -- including the women -- assume that being a female, automatically makes her passive and helpless and unable to do more with a sword than carry it for someone else.

She could represent feminine power that is feared by all including the female characters who are either out of touch with their femininity or deliberately rejecting it.

It's implied that Akio's magic ultimately flows from Anthy. The whole story almost amounts to little more than his machinations to grab more and more control over her magic. But he cannot get rid of her entirely; even if he succeeded in creating a princess out of Utena he would still have needed his witch, although the witch would have been kept out of sight as much as possible.

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#12 | Back to Top12-26-2007 04:22:48 PM

Anthiena
Egghead
From: ...the space between your ears
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1107

Re: Anthy's magic

I have a thought. Anthy and Dios were sort of like equals IMHO; he needed her, she needed him, so they more represent what could be viewed as a Pre-Christian set up, where the Gods could be siblings and yet still marry, cause, dammit, they are Gods... and yet the conventions even when Dios was around were Christian/Patrician... so in a sense, they were like remains of a perhaps more egalitarian society stuck in an extremely class/gender/race-based society. I believe the theory that they were ageless, but I don't think immortal applies to them-Dios could be killed and perhaps even Anthy, but not while she is/was the Rosebride... the thing is that the belief of the people was what kept them ageless-eternal children, and because people still believe in the Prince and the Witch, Akio and Anthy as they are in Ohtori are kept alive and still much like children. When Anthy is set free, she looks very adult, ne?

...but as both the catalyst of Dios's power and perhaps with a bit of personal power, her magic was probably more overt than Akio... it is just a matter of whose hands it is in. Utena doesn't know squat about it, so it is hardly ever used by her consciously. Touga did know and did use it, though it failed.

So I ask, why wouldn't Anthy use it more blatently? Heehee.

I actually have an answer to that: Where Akio uses sex only where needed, she uses her own power when needed-why expend them when it's not needed? Juri's first duel called for it. Often, only her actions and reactions are needed... besides, she probably thinks most of the time that this cycle will come to the same conclusion as the rest.


I stopped seeking to be sought after. That wasn't being true to myself.
I want to become someone who can exercise power. I want to become a prince. - Ikuni

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#13 | Back to Top12-27-2007 07:39:14 PM

OnionPrince
Covert Diarist
From: Nagoya
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 876

Re: Anthy's magic

I've been kind of wondering about other characters' reactions to Anthy's magic now... Utena dismissed the whole Sword of Dios thing as a "trick sword" at first, but shouldn't we expect her and other characters to lose their mind a little upon finding out that she's actually bending the laws of physics to her will? This is to say nothing of the impossibly constructed dueling arena, switching bodies after eating curry, a girl turning into a cow, and so on. My only guess is that the students have either accepted it as how the world works, or have just become desensitized to it.

I'd say that Anthy uses her power pretty blatantly, all things considered. It's just that no one ever finds out she's behind it. emot-keke

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#14 | Back to Top12-29-2007 03:58:06 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Anthy's magic

brian wrote:

What's really strange is that the duelists have no curiousity about Anthy's magic. They never ask where she got that fabulous sword that they all desire or wonder why she cannot use it herself.

On further thought maybe I and some other posters are on the wrong track. In the end the magic isn't "real" magic but symbolism. Anthy's magic and Utena's miracles symbolize the power of the female to transform the world and herself; whether recognized or unrecognized, whether constructive or destructive or just trivialized.

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#15 | Back to Top12-29-2007 05:47:05 PM

Nerrik
Wakaba Wrangler
From: Chicago-burbia
Registered: 12-23-2006
Posts: 15

Re: Anthy's magic

On the subject of Anthy's magic, I bet that they believe there is nothing particularly special about her. So, why all the hubbub about the Rose Bride and the Power of Miracles? Well, I don't think most of the other duelists think the power is even hers. Instead of flowing from within her, it is flowing from somewhere else, such as directly from the power they seek, and she is more or less a vessel that brings it forth. Nothing more than a steel pipe spewing liquid gold. But, that still doesn't explain why everyone's minds aren't breaking about all the weird shit that does happen. I guess they are all either so desperate or naive that they need to believe in what they are seeing, so that they can hope to gain the power of revolution? D: Well, wait, that doesn't make sense. I mean, "miracles" happen in front of Juri all the time, and yet she still adamantly goes on about not believing in them. I don't know.

But, to get back to the original topic... I have to agree with the views that paint Dios as incapable of doing the dirty and all related unprincely acts. I always thought that Dios "fell" because he lost his usefulness and purpose. His sister got skewered for sealing him away, and the world believed him gone. In fact, it seemed that his princely saving of ladies was really doing little for the world in the end. Whether or not Anthy literally sealed him away, I don't know. But, I always thought of the "sealing" more like putting all the good things of Dios in a box to preserve them, but in turn taking them away from the world. Something that has lost its usefulness is usually either thrown away or put away. What was left of him after the "sealing" either quickly or slowly began to transform into Akio. I have to say that I don't think Anthy did any actual "sealing" though, and like NajiMinkin said, just said that for the people to go away.

As far as the sexual corruption, I think the whole incestuous bumping thing comes from frustrated love that can no longer truly be expressed. Anthy was the one female in the world that Dios could not be a prince for, and probably created some incredible mixed feelings for the both of them. I bet Anthy wanted nothing more than to have her brother be her prince, just once. And Dios, I'm sure, regretted that he could not be that for her. So, now they are adults, and Dios has become Akio, the manifestation of everything he could not be as Dios. Sexual, controlling, selfish... and he could take bed with his sister without batting an eyelash.

Despite all the other reasons Anthy probably started having sex with Akio (whenever that was, who knows,) maybe she was trying to fulfill an old desire that she thought she wanted? To be her brother's only princess? Maybe this is all to make a point on the misguided ways that adults use, fruitlessly, to show "love." It's a perfect opposition to the innocent and (truly) non-sexual love that Utena showed to Anthy.

Last edited by Nerrik (12-29-2007 05:54:04 PM)

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#16 | Back to Top12-29-2007 07:16:36 PM

secret_lover_of_tenjou
Framed Landscaper
From: null
Registered: 06-30-2007
Posts: 427
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Re: Anthy's magic

I don't know why, but I can kinda relate to poor Dios/Akio.  Maybe not in a sense of fucking your sister, but in more of being a prince to everyone and no longer being a prince.  Kindness can be shown, but there's a point where it's being abused.  Anthy sees through this though, and realizes that despite the fact he's happy saving others from their problems, he's being taken advantage of to a certain degree and seems empty.  She tries to save him from it, but goes about it in a wrong way, causing him to get sealed away and the public to get angry at him.  She becomes bitter in the process, realizing that in trying to save her brother, she's become hated and hunted, and he's lost his will, so in turn the bitterness turns her into a witch.

where was i going with this?  i got distracted (damn being raised on ritalin.  there is no such thing as A.D.PLASTIC BAG!!! *runs off chasing plastic bag*)

oh well, maybe i'll remember and finish this post later. :\

and BTW, Calvin & Hobbes is the best comic ever, and although lame, The Legend of Zelda cartoon is still funny.


sayonara IRG, 6/13/2010, 3:43AM EDT

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#17 | Back to Top12-31-2007 03:29:42 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Anthy's magic

Just guessing but probably laying the eggs far apart from each other maximizes the food each caterpillar gets without competition from the others.

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#18 | Back to Top12-31-2007 07:32:56 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: Anthy's magic

brian wrote:

Just guessing but probably laying the eggs far apart from each other maximizes the food each caterpillar gets without competition from the others.

emot-confused


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#19 | Back to Top01-02-2008 01:11:01 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Anthy's magic

The butterfly probably laid the eggs in such a way as to ensure that each individual caterpillar got the larget possible dinner plate for itself. That is why they are near the edges and far removed from each other looking like pinholes. By the time the caterpillars met each other in the center they would all be big enough to easily move on to other leaves. They are also probably less consipicuous far apart than grouped together. It's just a guess but it seems reasonable.

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#20 | Back to Top01-02-2008 06:07:34 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: Anthy's magic

Wait... isn't the stuff about the caterpillar eggs in the BRS thread?


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#21 | Back to Top01-02-2008 11:00:42 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: Anthy's magic

Raven Nightshade wrote:

Wait... isn't the stuff about the caterpillar eggs in the BRS thread?

That's what I was wondering. emot-confused


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#22 | Back to Top01-03-2008 06:48:24 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Anthy's magic

emot-redface

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#23 | Back to Top03-26-2008 08:14:54 PM

Hedgehogey
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 01-30-2008
Posts: 430

Re: Anthy's magic

Revival thread of the rose egg

Now! Necromance your thread to me


Here's an interesting thought. A good portion of the post-series fic has Akio replacing Anthy with someone from Ohtori as the new rose bride.

But, if you accept that Anthy and Akio are immortal, Anthy must have taken millenia to learn to properly use her power (or the power that flows through her).

And this is heavy shit. It can reach across the world and summon herds of stampeding elephants and switch people's bodies. Can you imagine that in the hands of an amatuer?

In extreme cases we could have duellists reduced to looking like the failed Ripley clones from Alien: Ressurection. Either way, disasters abounding.

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#24 | Back to Top03-26-2008 09:46:19 PM

Nilamarthiel
The Icon Icon
From: Northern Michigan
Registered: 02-05-2007
Posts: 3972
Website

Re: Anthy's magic

I don't think that Akio would actually *allow* the new Rose Bride to perform any magic, really. I mean, even though Anthy was an "empty soul" or whatever, she had a reasonable amount of free will. She just didn't have all of it. I have a feeling, since I'm sure Akio has a fair amount of magical power, too [he must, really] he'd keep the new Rose Bride in enough of a stupor so that she'd only fulfill the most basic needs a Rose Bride can provide. [That sounded dirty. school-devil]

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#25 | Back to Top09-02-2011 01:24:24 PM

artemis88
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 05-05-2011
Posts: 66

Re: Anthy's magic

how can anyone see Akio's raping of Anthy as sex? it's beyond me.. I don't think it was ever consensual, not even once. but I realize I'm in the minority here with that opinion. -.-

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