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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#26 | Back to Top12-11-2006 12:20:48 PM

tohubohu
Precious One
From: Boston metro area
Registered: 11-02-2006
Posts: 289
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Xu Yuan wrote:

Wakaba is a major character, as well Keiko appears gagain when her dreams are fulfilled and at the end of Episode 39, if what you say is true then after Mikage died the illusion of life should have been gone and they all should have simultaneously died.

Not if Akio still had a reason for them to be around.

Honestly, I don't believe that the BRDs were actually dead.  I think they should have been dead, though -- certainly Kanae might as well have been dead, given her later scant seconds on the screen.

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#27 | Back to Top12-11-2006 12:26:32 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Before that time though we see her just fine,  visiting Akio with her mother. Yes, I don't quite understand about what you mean when they "should be dead" all Utena does is scatter the rose that binds those memories into a manipulative hate.


Please check out the MTG Utena Set Progress we have made at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o … 103070805#

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#28 | Back to Top12-11-2006 12:48:47 PM

Sey
Our Sicilian Prince
From: S. Cataldo, Sicily, Italy
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 268
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Yes, in my humble opinion.
See Utena and Mikage: When they leaved the Ohtori Academy no one remembered about Utena or Mikage, because they went away themselfves. As for Ruka: Miki, Nanami, Juri and the others remember Ruka, because he died, he didn't leave the Academy(As absurd hypothesis, if Ruka didn't die he continued to stay in the Academy).







And the Shadow Girls say that Ruka is dead, who don't trust the Shadow Girls? emot-mad


Your lovely "That's Amore" IRG User.

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#29 | Back to Top12-11-2006 01:15:29 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Actually I suggest people read the ruka essay, which explains why he may nt have died and how important he was to Akio himself. It's called "On Ruka" Shiori fan's beware...


Please check out the MTG Utena Set Progress we have made at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o … 103070805#

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#30 | Back to Top12-11-2006 02:28:22 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Ruka may be dead... but the Mutant Forelock still lives!

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6898/forelockun2.jpg

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#31 | Back to Top12-11-2006 03:24:57 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Blade wrote:

Ruka may be dead... but the Mutant Forelock still lives!

I can't stop laughing. XD If only it were a real movie... Well, then I suppose the people who were disappointed that Ruka wasn't in the Utena movie would finally get what they've always wanted. :3

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#32 | Back to Top12-11-2006 04:15:48 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Xu Yuan wrote:

Actually I suggest people read the ruka essay, which explains why he may nt have died and how important he was to Akio himself. It's called "On Ruka" Shiori fan's beware...

Yeah, I've read that - I'm addicted to the essay section - but even after reading it, I'm fairly convinced he died. I know the SPG's are rarely straightforward, but I think they were in this case.

Right after the duel, Juri is in the chair room again, and she's looking at Ruka's chair. It is then that she says "Everything will be alright, huh?" This would seem to indicate that Ruka is not alright, despite his assurances that everything would be alright. I think the next scene with the chairs very close to the end of the episode furthers the argument that Ruka has, in fact, expired, since there are only two chairs in the scene although previously there were three. And the emphasis of threes prior to that scene (three windows, then three chairs, then three windows again, then three hospital beds) before cutting it down to twos (two chairs) also indicates this. My guess is that when Juri is sitting in the chair looking at Ruka's chair and repeating his line it is because Ruka is back in the hospital and has gotten worse.

Also, to reiterate an oft-made point, Ruka is remembered by other students - Nanami even makes a snide remark regarding his attendance record! - which, if he had merely left, would not have been the case.

Also, I think the background music at the end of the episode is a tip-off, really - its sad-sounding music, and I doubt they'd use it if Ruka was merely farting around in the real world. It starts playing when Juri is visiting the fencer in the hospital, too, and urging her on focusing on getting better and not worrying about the upcoming competition. I think this is significant because Ruka left the hospital and did not focus on getting better.

Man, I just hardcore re-watched the final half of that episode. If anyone wants, I can post the screencaps of the three windows, three chairs, three windows, and three hospital beds if you don't recall that specific of a detail - never noticed it before myself!


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

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#33 | Back to Top12-11-2006 05:18:58 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Go for it, that would help me a bit.


Please check out the MTG Utena Set Progress we have made at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o … 103070805#

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#34 | Back to Top12-11-2006 06:19:12 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Ok, here we go:

So first we have the three windows, immediately after the duel has completely ended:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v409/thoudeadringer/1.jpg?t=1165886005

And then Juri repeating Ruka's line while looking at his chair:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v409/thoudeadringer/2.jpg?t=1165886062

Then the camera moves back to actually include the other chairs in the shot:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v409/thoudeadringer/3.jpg?t=1165886098

The scene then ends, and the next scene immediately starts with this, three windows:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v409/thoudeadringer/4.jpg?t=1165886109

And then we have the scene where Nanami and Miki are talking, and the fencer gets injured. Next we have Juri visiting the girl in the hospital, in a room with three beds, only one of which is occupied:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v409/thoudeadringer/5.jpg?t=1165886149

(as an aside, her visiting the girl in the hospital seems to support the parallel to Ruka, since why would the girl be in a hospital bed and staying there if she has merely injured her ankle?)

Juri next exits to the hall, the SPG's do their thing, and Juri walks off-screen as the scene ends. Immediately, we get this shot:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v409/thoudeadringer/6.jpg?t=1165886240

And then the next thing that happens is Juri walking along, and then Shiori popping out to walk behind her. Episode ends.

Last edited by A Day Without Me (12-11-2006 06:20:08 PM)


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

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#35 | Back to Top12-11-2006 07:32:10 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: Did Ruka Die?

(I'm sorry, I didn't mean for this post to get as long as it is. Just ignore me, if you want. I'm just rambling on about chairs...)

If I'm not mistaken, the chair symbolism is a way of showing who loves who throughout that episode. Shiori's chair (the top right chair) faces Ruka's chair, (the bottom chair,) which faces Juri's chair (the top left chair,) which faces Shiori's chair.

At the beginning of the episode, we see Shiori's chair facing Ruka's chair, but Ruka's chair is facing away from hers. Later we see Juri sitting in her chair. She continues to look in Shiori's direction even as she tells Utena that she it's between Shiori and Ruka, and that she won't get involved. She finally looks away from Shiori's chair as she says, "I have no right to," meaning that the only reason why she isn't getting involved is because she feels that she feels as though has no right to. She walks away from her own chair as Utena asks if that's how she really feels, she is turning her back to her true feelings.

Later, we see Ruka sitting in his own chair. He faces Juri as she tells him to take Shiori back, but turns away from Shiori's chair as thinks over her request. He hands up and begins to walk in the direction opposite to Shiori's chair as he says mean things about Shiori. After Juri attacks him, he pins her to the wall. The interesting thing is that when the camera angle goes to a higher level, we see that Ruka is forcing her against the wall so that he is facing his chair, and not Shiori's.

During the duel with Juri and Utena, we see Shiori, sitting in her chair looking sadly at Ruka's chair. (I'm going to go ahead and add a disclaiming on this next part, because I'm not 100% certain that I'm right about this.) You'll notice that the way Shiori is sitting is identical to the way that Juri is sitting the commonly seen picture where Shiori stole that boy from Juri.

"Juri, she's a fool. She doesn't realize that you get miracles only by standing off the sacrifices of others. Yet miracles only come to people like her! Don't you find that unfair, Juri?!"

To be honest, I can't help but think that that line relates to Juri as well, what with the identicle way that they are sitting. If I'm correct, then "Believe in miracles" means to believe that her love will be received. Juri does not believe in miracles, but she yearns for them. In other words, she does not believe that her feelings will ever be returned, but she yearns for them to be. Her goal to obtain miracles means to have her loved be returned, and whenever miracles are discussed that is what it means. It is the "miracle of love."

So, what does Ruka mean? Think of it this way, each chair is facing away from one other. As long as each chair faces away from each other, none of their wishes have come true. However, if two chairs were to face each other, then someone among them would still be left out. It applies for the picture that it shows of Juri, Shiori, and that nameless boy as well. Shiori's love was returned by that boy, and so Juri was left out. Someone had to be sacrificed. In a way, Shiori was preventing it from being herself. She thought that Juri and that boy would face each other, leaving her alone in that chair that she sits in the first time we see her, but instead it was Juri.

It could also mean that someone's feelings towards another person must be sacrificed. That boy loved Juri, but instead Shiori made him look in her direction. Now, however, he says that she doesn't realize that her feelings are standing off the sacrifices of others. She doesn't realize that Ruka would have to sacrifice his feelings for Juri to be with her. Juri is like that to, in the sense that she disregards Ruka's own feelings for Shiori, even if it was to help her. They're all like this, actually.

When Juri's locket is shattered, the three of them gasp, including Shiori from her chair. In the next scene, we see Juri sitting in her chair as she says, "It will be alright, huh?" Now Shiori's chair is facing her own... I really do wonder why the broken locket caused her to face Juri's direction...

After Juri hears what the shadow girls have to say, the three chairs are shown once again. The episode ends with Shiori's chairs facing Juri's, which faces the direction of Ruka's chair, which is no longer there... I was very upset the first time I realized what this meant.

Edit: I took out the last part, since it was rather irrelevant.

Last edited by Razara (12-11-2006 07:39:33 PM)

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#36 | Back to Top12-11-2006 07:35:56 PM

Syna
Rose Bride
From: Never-Neverland
Registered: 12-03-2006
Posts: 105
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

On a side note, am I the only one who wishes that Ruka had in fact been the nameless boy? I think in terms of the story it would've worked incredibly well, and made things even more interesting when Ruka actually shows up.

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#37 | Back to Top12-11-2006 07:47:53 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Syna wrote:

On a side note, am I the only one who wishes that Ruka had in fact been the nameless boy? I think in terms of the story it would've worked incredibly well, and made things even more interesting when Ruka actually shows up.

Hmm, I dunno - I never really thought about it.

But I do think the chairs support the idea that Ruka's died still. I'm not entirely sure about the chairs movements reflecting the affections of the cast, since I don't think Juri is interested in Ruka at all at any time.


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

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#38 | Back to Top12-12-2006 10:42:12 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Razara wrote:

When Juri's locket is shattered, the three of them gasp, including Shiori from her chair. In the next scene, we see Juri sitting in her chair as she says, "It will be alright, huh?" Now Shiori's chair is facing her own... I really do wonder why the broken locket caused her to face Juri's direction...

After Juri hears what the shadow girls have to say, the three chairs are shown once again. The episode ends with Shiori's chairs facing Juri's, which faces the direction of Ruka's chair, which is no longer there... I was very upset the first time I realized what this meant.

I find this fascinating! And I do think you are onto something.  What do you think it means?  That Juri doesn't love Shiori romantically anymore?  That she loves, or at least admires, Ruka?  That Ruka is gone for good, whether he's dead or not?

O_O


http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/absolethe/itrg_signature.jpg

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#39 | Back to Top12-12-2006 02:23:19 PM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Razara wrote:

[snip]

Woah, dude. Just... I have no words to describe your genius. o_o

But I highly doubt that means Juri doesn't love Shiori anymore - that would be just weird, and make their scene in the final episode useless. Rather, I think it means that for the first time Juri actually noticed Ruka, and perhaps realized what he's done for her, while Shiori starts thinking about Juri in a different way... hmm.... but I'm probably just talking crap.

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#40 | Back to Top12-12-2006 03:17:07 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: Did Ruka Die?

It might not be related to the character's affection, though the idea of looking away from one another does frequently come up. In the picture inside of Juri's locket, for example, Shiori is looking away from Juri and towards that boy. Just before the duel, we see that Juri is looking at Shiori, and Shiori is looking elsewhere. In the final scene, Shiori is looking away from Juri until she turns around and runs after her.

As for it not going along well with the final scene, in a way, it does. Though Shiori is now looking in Juri's direction, Juri is looking down an empty road. She's not looking at Shiori, but Shiori is looking at her, just as we see with the chairs.

I always figured that this means that Juri does care about Ruka, as much as I hate to admit it. I actually don't dislike Ruka, and my feelings for him are rather neutral. However, the first time I noticed this symbolism, I threw something at the TV screen. This was mostly due to my annoyance over the fact that after Shiori finally looks in Juri's direction, Juri looks away. However, there's nothing that says her chair can't face Shiori's direction again, and it doesn't necessarily mean that she doesn't love her.

It's hard to say whether the absence of Ruka's chair means that he is dead, or that he has simply left the academy.

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