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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top11-21-2006 05:55:17 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
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Anthy takes the plunge?

The thing about Akio in a suicide pact from the fanfic topic had me wondering. Regardless of all the reasons why Akio would never do it, could he kill himself even if he wanted to? I thought, offhand, that he couldn't. But what about Anthy?

Because she tries to! How does that work? If Utena hadn't stopped her from jumping off the tower, would she have died? Dios (Or Akio, if you prefer) states that Anthy is unable to die. She takes the swords of hate painfully but non-fatally. So what could a twenty story drop do to her?

emot-confused


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#2 | Back to Top11-21-2006 06:23:50 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4693

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

The scene where Anthy tried to kill herself was more so symbolic than an actual attempt to take her own life. It symbolizes that she was trying to run away from the duels, from being the Rose Bride, and from everything else. It also shows that Utena is the only one who can save her, or perhaps the only thing keeping her here.

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#3 | Back to Top11-21-2006 07:26:38 PM

Frosty
Everyone's Best Friend
From: United States
Registered: 11-16-2006
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Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Razara wrote:

The scene where Anthy tried to kill herself was more so symbolic than an actual attempt to take her own life. It symbolizes that she was trying to run away from the duels, from being the Rose Bride, and from everything else.

Exactly my thoughts. Just as, if the real Anthy was sealed in the coffin all along, then what walked among the students might have been a sort of projection. Not literally a transparent copy (what in the series is literal), but more like a shell of her true self. I imagine that if the series showed Anthy actually finishing her jump, the next morning we'd see her sitting blankly at her desk doing the rabbit's dance.

I'm glad someone brought this up, it's actually one of my favorite moments in the show! etc-love (yeah looks bad etc-love = suicide attempt) But finally Anthy asks for something! All you see is her accepting what comes her way, here she asks for it to end. So we know she wants out. And I think Utena's presence had a lot to do with bringing her to that place of realizing things couldn't go on the way they were forever.

Last edited by Frosty (11-21-2006 07:27:30 PM)


Just remember that the things you put into your head are there forever, he said. You might want to think about that. / You forget some things, don't you? / Yes. You forget what you want to remember and you remember what you want to forget.

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#4 | Back to Top11-21-2006 07:40:06 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Razara wrote:

The scene where Anthy tried to kill herself was more so symbolic than an actual attempt to take her own life. It symbolizes that she was trying to run away from the duels, from being the Rose Bride, and from everything else. It also shows that Utena is the only one who can save her, or perhaps the only thing keeping her here.

I totally agree with this. And I saw it as the only "action" that such a passive-aggressive character could take at that point. And jumping from a tower is an act that our all-action-girl Utena is finally going to understand. From a story standpoint, I can see the writers needing something drastic from Anthy at this point to get these two characters finally talking  Hmm, maybe they could've had that heart to heart a little sooner? Nah...emot-wink So, anyway, I think it's a measure of Anthy's despair that she's going to try it no matter what the consequences, whatever those are.

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#5 | Back to Top11-21-2006 09:06:58 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Anthy is a supernatural being who cannot die. She is also a 14-year who can die. She also appears to be a traumatized and nearly catatonic 7-year old who is beyond death. There is no contradiction oddly enough.

Utena and Touga are a pair of teenagers who duel three times. They are also meta-human forces who duel countless times. They are both, either, neither and all. That's a big part of why I like RGU.

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#6 | Back to Top11-22-2006 12:52:13 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

I think that it was less significant as a suicide attempt as it was significant in that it was the only time in the entire series that Anthy displays free will beyond her occasional tormenting of Nanami, and this has much greater effects, both on her and on Utena. I don't think she'd have died - she couldn't die - but the fact that she tried to escape, finally, made her more human in that moment than she'd really been shown as.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#7 | Back to Top11-22-2006 05:03:44 PM

Ragnarok
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From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
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Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Good thoughts here, I think I'm able to wrap my head around this concept now.

I especially like this:

Frosty wrote:

I imagine that if the series showed Anthy actually finishing her jump, the next morning we'd see her sitting blankly at her desk doing the rabbit's dance.

It's almost a shame that didn't happen at some point, it'd be a "What the hell?!" moment up there with Mamiya reverting into Anthy at the end of the Black Rose arc.


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#8 | Back to Top11-22-2006 05:55:19 PM

Dematrah
Ruthless Deflorist
From: Kansas City
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 300

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Though there are differences between them, I see a connection between Anthy willingly taking the plunge in this episode, and the scene in the last episode when Utena opens the coffin. In that last scene, Anthy's falling unwillingly, though Utena wasn't able to grasp her hand like she had before (albeit if it wasn't more meaningful).

I believe that Anthy wouldn't die from that first plunge, but I believe there had to be a consequence of some sort (whether or not the fall was symbolic). What would that have been? :\


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#9 | Back to Top11-22-2006 10:37:19 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
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Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

I've always wondered about that moment, because then, and for a while after, she seems to be truly on Utena's side, but once Akio shows up in the arena, she melts into passive silence and then very quickly turns on Utena anyway. I suspect it was a cry for help, yes, but her track record considered, I wonder if it was really as emotionally driven and spontaneous as we think. I think it was more a 'this is a good move regardless of how it turns out'.

I do wonder though, what Akio might have thought about it. Either it would have scared the unholy hell out of him (intent), or he'd have laughed and thought it a good manipulative move (inability).


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#10 | Back to Top11-22-2006 11:25:03 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

It's hard to look at anything that Anthy does throughout the entire series and not wonder what Akio thinks of it, and/or if he put her up to it. That's perhaps one of the scariest things about him.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#11 | Back to Top11-23-2006 12:29:31 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

ShatteredMirror wrote:

That's perhaps one of the scariest things about [Akio].

Or Anthy?

;)


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#12 | Back to Top11-23-2006 06:34:51 AM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Ah, that part left me puzzled for a long, long time. At some point I decided it was a warning - much like the cantarella part, which Utena completely ignored. I think that by attempting "suicide", Anthy was trying to tell Utena she had to get away from Ohtori - Anthy's weak, she can't be trusted, she can't even keep her promise to drink tea together in ten years.

The cantarella scene and the suicide attempt scene are connected - in the former, Anthy tries to tell her she's not trustworthy [poisoning her cookies] and that she will only hurt Utena, but by telling Anthy she poisoned her tea, Utena is saying that she's just as bad - like in the suicide scene, where they both argue who's been causing more pain to the other [haha].

Last edited by Hina the Prince (11-23-2006 06:35:37 AM)

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#13 | Back to Top11-23-2006 09:34:43 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Giovanna wrote:

I've always wondered about that moment, because then, and for a while after, she seems to be truly on Utena's side, but once Akio shows up in the arena, she melts into passive silence and then very quickly turns on Utena anyway. I suspect it was a cry for help, yes, but her track record considered, I wonder if it was really as emotionally driven and spontaneous as we think. I think it was more a 'this is a good move regardless of how it turns out'.

I always saw Anthy's jump as a last ditch effort on her part to stop Utena from going to the final duel to become Akio's latest champion victim. So, yes, I always thought it was a manipulative act although by a despairing Anthy who doesn't know what else to try because bold acts are not her usual style. Once she talks to Utena and gets it that Utena is never going to give up, she is faced with the inevitable, and so in the arena with Akio, she's just waiting for the end because she's sure she knows how it will turn out.

Hina the Prince wrote:

Ah, that part left me puzzled for a long, long time. At some point I decided it was a warning - much like the cantarella part, which Utena completely ignored. I think that by attempting "suicide", Anthy was trying to tell Utena she had to get away from Ohtori - Anthy's weak, she can't be trusted, she can't even keep her promise to drink tea together in ten years.

The cantarella scene and the suicide attempt scene are connected - in the former, Anthy tries to tell her she's not trustworthy [poisoning her cookies] and that she will only hurt Utena, but by telling Anthy she poisoned her tea, Utena is saying that she's just as bad - like in the suicide scene, where they both argue who's been causing more pain to the other [haha].

The cantarella scene is so fascinating because there are so many ways to take it. To me, the scene is not about what WILL happen but what has already taken place. Utena and Anthy both feel betrayed by the other over Akio. The gist of the scene to me is "hey you hurt me", "hey I hurt you" and "I'm sorry", "I forgive you" and "everything is okay between us now." Except that everything is NOT okay which Anthy knows but Utena still doesn't know. Hence the quick cut to Anthy on the tower. She wishes tea in 10 years could happen but she doesn't think in a million years that it will. I'm sure there are other ways to take that scene as well.

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#14 | Back to Top11-23-2006 10:00:02 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
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Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Hina the Prince wrote:

The cantarella scene and the suicide attempt scene are connected - in the former, Anthy tries to tell her she's not trustworthy [poisoning her cookies] and that she will only hurt Utena, but by telling Anthy she poisoned her tea, Utena is saying that she's just as bad - like in the suicide scene, where they both argue who's been causing more pain to the other [haha].

I wouldn't exactly say that Utena's just as bad as her. She simply decides to play along because that's the only way to stay on Anthy's side and let her know that she wouldn't leave her. By that time, she had already decided about Anthy (or so I believe, since right before that she has the conversation with Miki and Juri, which makes you think that Utena's, and also others' - such as Miki's, Juri's and Nanami's, way of thinking has changed. They seem to be viewing their life differently, as if opening their eyes. At that point, they are willing to leave their old selves behind, sort of like preparing or calling for a revolution).

I guess that hurt Anthy because seeing how Utena reacted to her warning made her see her own situation from a new angle. I think Anthy also knew all along that she, too, has a heart, but she repressed any emotion till she started to believe she was heartless. Also, she started to slowly realise the opposite from when Utena came along, but the whole process was developing very slowly and it wasn't till the last few episodes (probably starting from ep33) when, despite everything she tried to do to deny or repress it, she finally realised it.

Next, Utena makes her promise something that Anthy knows she couldn't keep. She knows what Akio is up to and she probably knows what she has to do to Utena in the end. By accepting her promise, she realises how much it would hurt Utena when the time comes, Utena would have got away with a lot less pain if she hadn't cared for Anthy so much. That moves her quite a bit even though she may think she has no heart. But that's not all! From Utena's side, the promise is a solid decision that she'd be on Anthy's side no matter what. What Utena doesn't see still, is the whole scheme Akio has set up and what kind of effect promising such a thing would have on Anthy. Additionally, I think if she had known about the game she'd been playing, she'd still make the promise with Anthy.

Now, what actually hurts Anthy is, I think, the fact that Utena wouldn't let her go and would not leave her behind despite all the subtle warnings she'd been giving and then of course the suicide attempt which could be interpreted in many ways.

One, the suicide attempt could have been planned so that she could make Utena realise the severity of their situation and then she could perhaps pursuade Utena to quit the game before it was too late. I find it a little strange that Utena could catch her right before she fell, I think she sort of expected that. There's no way Utena (or anyone else by that matter) would notice that their roommate has disappeared in the middle of the night and then actually make it in time to save them ("Hmm, she's not here... oh right, she must be on the roof trying to jump down any second!" That does not work :school: ). I think that was Anthy's final struggle against the system (excluding the ending of ep38 where she makes a very poor attempt at that again by offering Utena the letter one last time). It also makes me think what might have happened right before Anthy went to commit her suicide attempt. Maybe another argument/conversation with Utena/Akio?

Two, the suicide attempt might have also been Anthy's way of quitting the game. I also agree with what had been posted above, that the fall is in symbolic nature. Seeing that she failed to pursuade/warn Utena previously, she decides to quit the game herself (because otherwise it would have been Utena who'd have to leave the game in the end). Wheter or not she would have actually died is beyond my knowledge, but I also lean to think she wouldn't have.

Furthermore, by quitting the game herself, and giving her own life in the process (even if it's symbolic), she lets Utena 'live' a little longer (mainly because she believed that Utena wouldn't recover from the pain she would inflict upon her by betraying her in the end). This is what reminds me of Anthy's tragic story again. Isn't this a bit like what she did to Dios? She didn't want Dios to give his life for all the people (and Utena was willing to do the same for her) so to stop him,  Anthy had to sacrifice herself. It's a fact that Utena reminded her of Dios (for reference, see ep12 - duel with Touga; ep37 - Touga's last duel. Utena clearly promises to protect Anthy right before the duel. That's something Anthy wanted from Dios but never really got anything.)

I personally think that her suicide attempt had something to do with all the aspects mentioned above.
Er... I think that's all I can think of right now. I hope it makes some sense because it's so long, gahh! *braincrash*
Excuse all typos, I don't have the time to double-check it right now >_<


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#15 | Back to Top11-23-2006 10:44:34 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Maarika wrote:

By that time, she had already decided about Anthy (or so I believe, since right before that she has the conversation with Miki and Juri, which makes you think that Utena's, and also others' - such as Miki's, Juri's and Nanami's, way of thinking has changed. They seem to be viewing their life differently, as if opening their eyes. At that point, they are willing to leave their old selves behind, sort of like preparing or calling for a revolution).

I love that badminton scene. Quintessential SKU, just a perfect gem of a scene.

I guess that hurt Anthy because seeing how Utena reacted to her warning made her see her own situation from a new angle. I think Anthy also knew all along that she, too, has a heart, but she repressed any emotion till she started to believe she was heartless. Also, she started to slowly realise the opposite from when Utena came along, but the whole process was developing very slowly and it wasn't till the last few episodes (probably starting from ep33) when, despite everything she tried to do to deny or repress it, she finally realised it.

Yes, I agree. With Ep 33, Anthy has to face her jealous feelings but she doesn't know what to do about it.

Now, what actually hurts Anthy is, I think, the fact that Utena wouldn't let her go and would not leave her behind despite all the subtle warnings she'd been giving and then of course the suicide attempt which could be interpreted in many ways.

One, the suicide attempt could have been planned so that she could make Utena realise the severity of their situation and then she could perhaps pursuade Utena to quit the game before it was too late. I find it a little strange that Utena could catch her right before she fell, I think she sort of expected that. There's no way Utena (or anyone else by that matter) would notice that their roommate has disappeared in the middle of the night and then actually make it in time to save them ("Hmm, she's not here... oh right, she must be on the roof trying to jump down any second!" That does not work school-eng101 ). I think that was Anthy's final struggle against the system (excluding the ending of ep38 where she makes a very poor attempt at that again by offering Utena the letter one last time). It also makes me think what might have happened right before Anthy went to commit her suicide attempt. Maybe another argument/conversation with Utena/Akio?

Two, the suicide attempt might have also been Anthy's way of quitting the game. I also agree with what had been posted above, that the fall is in symbolic nature. Seeing that she failed to pursuade/warn Utena previously, she decides to quit the game herself (because otherwise it would have been Utena who'd have to leave the game in the end). Wheter or not she would have actually died is beyond my knowledge, but I also lean to think she wouldn't have.

Furthermore, by quitting the game herself, and giving her own life in the process (even if it's symbolic), she lets Utena 'live' a little longer (mainly because she believed that Utena wouldn't recover from the pain she would inflict upon her by betraying her in the end). This is what reminds me of Anthy's tragic story again. Isn't this a bit like what she did to Dios? She didn't want Dios to give his life for all the people (and Utena was willing to do the same for her) so to stop him,  Anthy had to sacrifice herself. It's a fact that Utena reminded her of Dios (for reference, see ep12 - duel with Touga; ep37 - Touga's last duel. Utena clearly promises to protect Anthy right before the duel. That's something Anthy wanted from Dios but never really got anything.)

I would agree with either of those interpretations. And I've always wondered too about events right before the ledge scene. How did Utena get out there so fast unless she was watching Anthy all night or she couldn't sleep and followed her right away. Unless they were sleeping together, um, closer than usual. All good fodder for fanfic.school-devil

Interesting link between Utena and Dios. That fits the idea that Anthy, like all the other Ohtori students, is doomed to make the same mistakes over and over, to play" the same tortured role", until she is freed.

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#16 | Back to Top11-23-2006 11:18:21 AM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

I don't know how this fits in with anything but one of the "truisms" of suicide is that some forms of suicide are more sincere than others. People who throw themselves off tall building are pretty serious about wanting to die.

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#17 | Back to Top11-23-2006 01:25:42 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
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Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

EDIT: I SUCK.

I still don't believe that Anthy can die, though.

Last edited by dollface (10-02-2008 04:46:49 PM)


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#18 | Back to Top11-23-2006 02:23:48 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

dollface wrote:

[if you'll recall, Akio does commit suicide in the movie...but who knows what the hell is going on in the movie.]

Yeah, and he doesn't die. Instead he goes on rambling how in Ohtori you can live while being dead - the "living corpse" offical translation feels wrong to me.

At seven[ish], she was stabbed by pitchforks. They called that the million swords of hatred, but at that point, it was the million pitchforks of hatred.

Swords, actually. Every single person in that crowd is holding a proper sword, not a pitchfork. And they call on Dios to save them, those cowardly bastards.

In the final episode, she is indeed stabbed by the swords, and LIVES.

Well, they are metaphorical swords, rather than real deal, but yeah, I agree, she can't die. Otherwise she could do such thing as a suicide, which wouldn't fit well with an eternal punishment.

That didn't even kill Utena though, and she has no supernatural rosebride eternal life. Not to my knowledge at least.

Not that we would know about it. She may well have been reincarnated, for all we know. But since they're metaphorical swords, I doubt that they can actually kill or cause physical injury - pain and mental anguish aplenty, though.

But was Utena's mission not to turn Anthy into a "normal" girl? We consider Utena to have brought the Revolution, so perhaps Anthy did become a girl rather than a witch.

But Utena's quest was mistaken to begin with, even though it had benign reasons. She tried to decide what was best for Anthy, just like all others, instead of letting her make her own decisions. "Normal girl" is a role, as much as any other she's been made to pretend. There Utena changed, in the end. She said to have been content just being with Anthy, instead of putting her into any role. And that brought up the coffin from the Rose Gate.

But all attempts to take Anthy's life happened prior to Utena saving her. Perhaps she will die on her jorney to find Utena. As terrible as that would be, I believe she is finally capable of death.

Perhaps, since the eternity was an aspect of the Rose Bride and she no longer represents that role. But it may well still be hers to decide. We really don't know what she's become. In any case, this time she decides it herself.


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#19 | Back to Top11-23-2006 02:40:43 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
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Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

brian wrote:

I don't know how this fits in with anything but one of the "truisms" of suicide is that some forms of suicide are more sincere than others. People who throw themselves off tall building are pretty serious about wanting to die.

And who would know that better than her?

The consensus seems to be that Anthy jumped with some intent to make Utena quit the game. Now assuming she knew she would survive, and in fact, assuming she knew she'd be stopped (the school is odd this way, and she does react almost like she knew Utena was going to catch her), I don't necessarily think she was trying to get Utena to back down. Quite the opposite. She must have known Utena better than that by now. A display of the situation's severity would not scare Utena off. She's faced what (she thought) was considerable danger to herself in defense of Anthy already, and showing her how bad things really were would only further fuel her desire to help her friend. I think if anything, the jump was meant to solidify Utena's willingness to fight. The problem then becomes whether she did it for herself or because she was supposed to do it.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#20 | Back to Top11-23-2006 05:10:25 PM

Frosty
Everyone's Best Friend
From: United States
Registered: 11-16-2006
Posts: 1269
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Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

I'm so thankful on Thanksgiving to have this topic to talk about!

Hina the Prince wrote:

Anthy tries to tell her she's not trustworthy [poisoning her cookies] and that she will only hurt Utena

I agree. Another scene that is proof to me that Anthy did care for Utena, and wasn't just Akio's tool who was manipulating her without remorse and guilt.

Maarika wrote:

Next, Utena makes her promise something that Anthy knows she couldn't keep. She knows what Akio is up to and she probably knows what she has to do to Utena in the end. By accepting her promise, she realises how much it would hurt Utena when the time comes, Utena would have got away with a lot less pain if she hadn't cared for Anthy so much. That moves her quite a bit even though she may think she has no heart. But that's not all! From Utena's side, the promise is a solid decision that she'd be on Anthy's side no matter what. What Utena doesn't see still, is the whole scheme Akio has set up and what kind of effect promising such a thing would have on Anthy. Additionally, I think if she had known about the game she'd been playing, she'd still make the promise with Anthy.

I have to say, your entire speech about that suicide scene was one of the best ways I have heard it described. I like the ideas you put forth very much, and tend to agree that by this point, Anthy had very conflicting feelings about manipulating Utena.

Maarika  wrote:

I find it a little strange that Utena could catch her right before she fell, I think she sort of expected that. There's no way Utena (or anyone else by that matter) would notice that their roommate has disappeared in the middle of the night and then actually make it in time to save them "Hmm, she's not here... oh right, she must be on the roof trying to jump down any second!" That does not work

Perhaps she was standing there for a while, you know "contemplating" and had to make the split second decision to jump or not, when she saw Utena arriving on the scene.

Giovanna wrote:

The consensus seems to be that Anthy jumped with some intent to make Utena quit the game. Now assuming she knew she would survive, and in fact, assuming she knew she'd be stopped (the school is odd this way, and she does react almost like she knew Utena was going to catch her), I don't necessarily think she was trying to get Utena to back down. Quite the opposite. She must have known Utena better than that by now. A display of the situation's severity would not scare Utena off. She's faced what (she thought) was considerable danger to herself in defense of Anthy already, and showing her how bad things really were would only further fuel her desire to help her friend. I think if anything, the jump was meant to solidify Utena's willingness to fight. The problem then becomes whether she did it for herself or because she was supposed to do it.

I think Anthy really did become divided, and that troubled her. I plan on making another thread, something along the lines of "scary glasses Anthy" where we can decide what she was really thinking during the moments her glasses fogged over. I'm just rewatching the series so I can make a note of all those points. (fun ahead!)

For now, I do remember Anthy holding the T.U. (or was it U.T.) napkin, portrayed as her "missing Utena" after she had been won by Touga in the duel. When she LEFT with Touga, you couldn't tell she cared at all. But afterwards, you see a moment of her thoughts, and Utena is in them. So, I believe she did care about Utena. Also, I remember the night Anthy was gone and Utena was looking all around, eventually fell asleep and woke up with Anthy clutching her hand. Then of course, the next big moment in the "Anthy really does care" slideshow, would be the suicide attempt...where it seems she opens up A LITTLE.

Here, we have to decide if Anthy is being honest or dishonest when she's crying on the roof with Utena, as she tells Utena to leave the school. To me, it seems like an honest moment, as opposed to most of Anthy's other actions, filled with blank expressions and cheerful smiles. I suppose the tears make me believe she is being truthful.

Usually, when Anthy sheds a tear in the series, it's because something is particularly moving to her. For instance, the duel where Utena was in (to her) mortal danger and still kept fighting. Memory may not serve, I might have to pop the disk in and check, but I believe the first time was when Touga had Anthy's special 'blessing' on the sword - Utena was bound to loose, until Anthy noticed what was going on, shed a tear, and then stopped the swords power.

Although, there is a problem with Anthy's truthfulness I can already see. One, if she were being absolutely truthful on the roof, why didn't she come clean totally about Akio's plans? Was it because she was really bound by his power, was it her choice? Who would be served best if she told Utena everything about Akio? I agree with whoever said, "If Utena knew, she'd still choose to fight." Anthy knew this, and I think if Anthy DID tell Utena, it would provoke her to fight...more motivation. But, by not telling Utena how bad Akio really was, she was protecting him from being exposed (and Utena as well from fighting a doomed battle).

In the end, I agree with who said that Anthy was sort of reenacting what had happened earlier with Dios. She's going to end up taking the swords, she will keep her brother's secret, and she will keep Utena out of the line of fire. Making her -Anthy- the martyr.

Did she do it for herself, for Akio, or Utena? That is the question. Interesting question to ask, "Did Akio tell Anthy to try and kill herself where Utena would see?" Nah, I think this qualifies as an "honest" moment. I could be wrong... emot-confused


Just remember that the things you put into your head are there forever, he said. You might want to think about that. / You forget some things, don't you? / Yes. You forget what you want to remember and you remember what you want to forget.

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#21 | Back to Top11-24-2006 06:53:09 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Frosty wrote:

Did she do it for herself, for Akio, or Utena? That is the question. Interesting question to ask, "Did Akio tell Anthy to try and kill herself where Utena would see?" Nah, I think this qualifies as an "honest" moment. I could be wrong... emot-confused

Yeah, I think you're right. Whenever I'm trying to decide about Anthy's true feelings during any of these moments, I have to remind myself that, at the end of the show, she wants to be with Utena and that's a fact, not a manipulation. And the viewer has to accept that, at the very least, as Anthy's true and honest sentiment if the show has any point at all. So maybe not all, but MOST of these moments have to be honest feelings on Anthy's part to give her character the arc she needs to get to that point at the end. What makes her character so fascinating for me is how closed off she is and how restrained the SKU writers are in showing us only glimpses of the kinks Utena puts in her armor.

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#22 | Back to Top11-24-2006 11:20:57 AM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Giovanna wrote:

I don't necessarily think she was trying to get Utena to back down. Quite the opposite. She must have known Utena better than that by now. A display of the situation's severity would not scare Utena off. She's faced what (she thought) was considerable danger to herself in defense of Anthy already, and showing her how bad things really were would only further fuel her desire to help her friend. I think if anything, the jump was meant to solidify Utena's willingness to fight. The problem then becomes whether she did it for herself or because she was supposed to do it.

I considered that at some point, but now I agree with Frosty - that moment was too honest to be just another act of manipulation. When Anthy sheds tears, she means it.

...But then again, if it was Akio that told her to jump in order to get Utena to keep dueling, they could be tears of regret. Hmm...

Last edited by Hina the Prince (11-24-2006 11:21:26 AM)

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#23 | Back to Top12-27-2006 05:58:23 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Maybe a bit of context helps. Utena was really furious with with her and she could not explain what was really happening between them. We see her in the Akio car screaming in pain, it's very likely that Utena was inflicting that pain on her. She is feeling very rejected in the face of Utena's moral outrage (and jealousy) and Utena has probably sent a sword or two of her own flying at Anthy. The Shadow Girls do a skit about a would-be starlet abandoning her friend and running off with "Daddy." Anthy is the one being left behind (did you know? did you know? there can be only one.) Anthy strikes back at Utena with the "Cantarella" but Utena parries it, with gracious finality. Anthy realizes she is losing Utena, and Utena is stealing Akio, and Utena is not going to get sucked into Anthy's games, but she is sucked unstoppably into Akio's game.

Then Anthy jumps.

In the movie and movie manga, at a similar point Utena makes it clear that she disapproves of Anthy's actions. Anthy stares out over the edge but is stopped by Utena even though Utena does not even know what was happening or even that anything was happening. One of the most striking scenes of the movie manga is the ghastly look on Anthy's face and the witch-like transformation when she realizes there is still hope.

I suspect there is some parallel with Utena's jump when she was little. Utena was saved by Dios and Anthy by Utena.

(Perhaps existentialism ties in here. Didn't one of those philosophers say that we always have a little bit of free will even if it is just the power to kill ourselves?)

Last edited by brian (12-27-2006 06:02:04 PM)

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#24 | Back to Top12-28-2006 12:45:16 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Damn, I wish I'd been around when this thread started. emot-mad But I did want to add one little thought -- like Frosty and Maarika, I tend to think Anthy's actions in throwing herself off the building were at least partially genuine; she was trying to prove to Utena that this was no longer a game and that people could in fact be very badly hurt by it (in the hilariously ironic guise of an immortal creature throwing herself off a tall building). I just think it's rather lovely how this neatly dovetails with Akio's later assertion to Utena that the duels are not a game, and that she doesn't understand the "purpose" of his room...in much the same way she didn't understand Anthy's purpose in tossing herself into the big black. But that's really what makes Utena a prince; she doesn't think about the risk to herself, she's more concerned now with protecting Anthy. I mean, even when Utena is fallen for the final time, she stares down at the girl she has let fall -- she doesn't once seem to acknowledge at all the swords aimed straight at her.

...damn, I etc-love this show.


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#25 | Back to Top07-13-2008 07:08:44 AM

dlaire
A Whole Orange
From: Poland
Registered: 04-08-2007
Posts: 2322

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Hm, I started to think about this now, and I think that suicide attempt has one simple purpose: to remind Utena's her duties, and this scene would help her to remain more prince-like than princess-like. For me it was something like: Hey, I saved her then, so it would be possible to rescue her again!

Of course, Anthy can't die. She's far too smart to make a mistake, and I don't think that her suicide attempt would make Utena less attached to her, I think it was otherwise. Maybe Anthy wanted to be more important and worth sacrifices than Akio? She showed herself as miserable and depending once again.

Another thing is that showing Utena, how sick and tired she feels (or act as if she felt) about duels, she urged Utena to make what she wants sooner.

How clever.

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