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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#26 | Back to Top11-03-2006 02:12:42 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

Note: Saionji always slaps Anthy with his right hand

Giovanna wrote:

You'd think the sword-pulling would always be done with the dominant hand, but unless Saionji's genuinely ambidextrous (very possible, he does do a lot of masturbating...) that doesn't hold either.

The sword of Dios is always drawn out with the left hand to get that nice sparkly ring effect. Saionji draws Touga's sword with his right hand.

satyreyes wrote:

Touga is left-handed in 11, right-handed in 12 (though he hands the sword to Anthy with his left), and right-handed in 36.

Touga's right handed in 11 as well, so he's at least consistent.

It's possibly Saionji used his left hand in the first duel because he didn't take Utena seriously and/or he couldn't be bothered changing hands after drawing the sword out. It's also possible he prefered to use the sword of Dios with his left hand because it's drawn out with the left hand.

I still don't know why Utena keeps switching hands. In her second duel with Miki she changes back and forth at least twice.


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

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#27 | Back to Top11-04-2006 04:42:33 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

Ragnarok wrote:

Note: Saionji always slaps Anthy with his right hand
___
Saionji draws Touga's sword with his right hand.

Between the two I'd say it's confirming Saionji's right-handed...

Ragnarok wrote:

It's possibly Saionji used his left hand in the first duel because he didn't take Utena seriously and/or he couldn't be bothered changing hands after drawing the sword out. It's also possible he prefered to use the sword of Dios with his left hand because it's drawn out with the left hand.

Which makes this sound very Princess Bride of him. And actually it suits, Saionji strikes me as cocky and confident enough in his own swordsmanship (one of the few things he is actually confident about) that he'd take Utena with his off hand almost as if to insult her on top of flaunting his skill. That it turns on him no doubt added to the crushing humiliation of his defeat. Not only did he lose, but as far as he's concerned, he lost because he made the fatal mistake of underestimating the enemy. Sun Tsu would NOT be proud.

That said it's also possible he did just prefer to use the Sword of Dios left-handed. After all, it's not in line with his usual style and he can't really quite adapt to it.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#28 | Back to Top11-04-2006 11:44:53 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Right or Left Handed?

Katanas REALLY don't handle the same way as duelling sabres. Hell, even rapiers don't handle the same way as duelling sabres. That could very well have put him at a disadvantage, and it's very Saionji to use it left-handed because that's the way it's drawn.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#29 | Back to Top11-05-2006 02:49:05 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Right or Left Handed?

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Katanas REALLY don't handle the same way as duelling sabres. Hell, even rapiers don't handle the same way as duelling sabres. That could very well have put him at a disadvantage, and it's very Saionji to use it left-handed because that's the way it's drawn.

The Sword of Dios is not a saber, but a spada da lato, a sidesword - or at least resembles the model more than any other kind of sword. A sidesword is the mid-way between rapier and broadsword and can be used like both. It's shorter than a proper rapier and thinner than a proper broadsword, but it can emulate both fairly well. It's propably the most adaptive sword in the existance, which is propably why it was chosen for the series, as it must be used by and against different kinds of fighters.

But yes, it's very much unlike katana and handles in a very different way. You generally don't use a sword with your lesser hand, even if the situation demands you to draw it that way, but I like the idea that Saionji wasn't taking the duel seriously and decided to add artifical challenge for himself.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#30 | Back to Top11-05-2006 08:14:43 PM

Nessy
Sunlit Gardener (Prelude)
Registered: 11-04-2006
Posts: 169
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

In the fencing class I took we were EXPECTED to be competant with both hands. Since I've never been taught by anyone else, I'm not sure if other teachers go at it differently--but I think it's fairly safe to assume that the hand they use to handle a sword doesn't necessarily correlate with which hand is the dominate one.

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#31 | Back to Top11-05-2006 11:37:09 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Right or Left Handed?

Lightice wrote:

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Katanas REALLY don't handle the same way as duelling sabres. Hell, even rapiers don't handle the same way as duelling sabres. That could very well have put him at a disadvantage, and it's very Saionji to use it left-handed because that's the way it's drawn.

The Sword of Dios is not a saber, but a spada da lato, a sidesword - or at least resembles the model more than any other kind of sword. A sidesword is the mid-way between rapier and broadsword and can be used like both. It's shorter than a proper rapier and thinner than a proper broadsword, but it can emulate both fairly well. It's propably the most adaptive sword in the existance, which is propably why it was chosen for the series, as it must be used by and against different kinds of fighters.

But yes, it's very much unlike katana and handles in a very different way. You generally don't use a sword with your lesser hand, even if the situation demands you to draw it that way, but I like the idea that Saionji wasn't taking the duel seriously and decided to add artifical challenge for himself.

Never thought of the Sword of Dios as a sidesword (that's definitely what Juri's sword is, bearing a close resemblance to the Tizona del Cid). It struck me more as a sabre because of its shape and to an extent its use, but it's definitely worth another look at a few duels, esp. the ones where Touga and Saionji are using it.

Also, I am thrilled to see someone who potentially knows more about swords than I do.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#32 | Back to Top11-06-2006 04:46:16 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Right or Left Handed?

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Never thought of the Sword of Dios as a sidesword (that's definitely what Juri's sword is, bearing a close resemblance to the Tizona del Cid). It struck me more as a sabre because of its shape and to an extent its use, but it's definitely worth another look at a few duels, esp. the ones where Touga and Saionji are using it.

I'm sorry, but I beg differ. Juri's sword is either a broadsword or a longsword - frankly I can't remember the length of the hilt, but she uses it with one hand so I say a broadsword, albeit a somewhat light model. Considering that her style resembles more of modern fencing that proper broadsword-style, that is propably neccecary. Tizona del Cid is definately a broadsword and it does indeed hold some resemblance with Juri's sword. A sidesword is a modern English term coined for the Italian spada da lato used in the late Middle Ages and early Renaissance. It pretty aptly showed the development from broadswords into rapiers. Here's a picture of a typical sidesword:

http://www.christianfletcher.com/Site/Sidesword_files/HPIM0006.jpg
Resembles the Sword of Dios quite a bit, apart from the decorations. At least to me it seems that the Sword of Dios is two-bladed, while sabres always have only one blade.

Also, I am thrilled to see someone who potentially knows more about swords than I do.

Indeed, fun to see others with the same hobby, although I half-expected to find one or two in Utena-themed forums. I study European swordsmanship, namely two-handed longswords, whenever I have the time. Sadly that isn't very often, these days and I'm just a low-level trainee. My theoretical understanding is far better than my practical skills. I'm lucky enough to have a British swordmaster (or maestro, since his style is mostly Italian) living nearby. Not very common these days, I imagine. cool

Last edited by Lightice (11-07-2006 02:42:44 AM)


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#33 | Back to Top11-06-2006 07:00:04 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

etc-wankgirl etc-wankgirl etc-wankgirl

Posting to endorse the weapon discussion in here. Plz tell us more!


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#34 | Back to Top11-07-2006 12:02:27 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Right or Left Handed?

Mmm, nice pic. I need to find me a swordmaster. emot-biggrin


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#35 | Back to Top11-07-2006 03:49:29 AM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/spatulasama/diosrapier.jpg

Replica of the Sword of Dios (Rapier) school-eng101

The quillon, guard and handle are 16 karat gold, the pummel and guard jewel are both made out of turquoise.

Last edited by Tamago (11-07-2006 03:57:43 AM)

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#36 | Back to Top11-07-2006 05:13:14 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Right or Left Handed?

Quite impressive, I must say. I wonder how well it acts as a sword, though. There it resembles a smallsword more than anything. Those don't work with slashing moves, however and are little good against heavier and longer blades, at least if you're supposed to parry. Too bad that there isn't anything to scale it with. The hilt is definately more a smallsword or sidesword, than rapier. I shudder when I think what a broadsword or katana-strike would do to that pretty, soft hilt...
Miki's sword is a typical rapier, by the way - long and basket-hilted with thrust-based attacks.

As for the name, I would quote Wikipedia's article:

Also of note is that as rapiers became more popular, attempts were made to hybridize the blade, sacrificing the effectiveness found in each unique weapon design. These are still considered side-swords and are incorrectly labeled sword rapier or cutting rapier by modern collectors.

Essentially, if you can make broadsword-moves with it, it's still a sidesword. And at least Utena makes plenty of those. So I'm still behind my sidesword-claim.emot-wink

But just to be curious, what website you got that pic from? I might be able to determine its usability from who made it. Real swordsmiths usually have references and crosslinking and they usually speak about the process of forging and steel-quality on their websites...school-sherlock

Last edited by Lightice (11-07-2006 05:14:16 AM)


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#37 | Back to Top11-07-2006 02:33:48 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Right or Left Handed?

Lightice  wrote:

But just to be curious, what website you got that pic from? I might be able to determine its usability from who made it. Real swordsmiths usually have references and crosslinking and they usually speak about the process of forging and steel-quality on their websites...

I wish I could give you the site where this sword was featured because then that would mean you might be able to buy it for real. emot-smile

The reason I cannot give you the website is quite simple, I created this sword myself using the power of Adobe! emot-keke


Lightice wrote:

Quite impressive, I must say. I wonder how well it acts as a sword, though. There it resembles a smallsword more than anything. Those don't work with slashing moves, however and are little good against heavier and longer blades, at least if you're supposed to parry. Too bad that there isn't anything to scale it with. The hilt is definately more a smallsword or sidesword, than rapier. I shudder when I think what a broadsword or katana-strike would do to that pretty, soft hilt...

Lets not forget that the Sword of Dios was magical by nature so any weaknesses the sword design might suffer from would be negated by the magical quality it holds within.

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#38 | Back to Top11-07-2006 02:40:10 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

Well you think the typical prince stereotype has a broadsword, but that really would have been stunningly ridiculous if pitted against wussy little rapiers. Maybe was more practical to design a sword that didn't look like it would kick the crap out Miki's toothpick.

Really that aspect of the show strikes me as very impractical, that everyone's fighting with different swords but using sword on sword tactics. If someone comes at you with a massive katana and you have a rapier, you don't even let metal hit metal. SAME GOES FOR FIGHTING SWORD OF DIOS WITH BAMBOO SHINAI. emot-confused emot-confused


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#39 | Back to Top11-08-2006 02:51:28 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Right or Left Handed?

Tamago wrote:

I wish I could give you the site where this sword was featured because then that would mean you might be able to buy it for real. emot-smile

The reason I cannot give you the website is quite simple, I created this sword myself using the power of Adobe! emot-keke

*channeling Captain Jack Sparrow*
Oh bugger...
*stopping channeling now*

Quite well done manipulation, indeed. I suggest that you widen the blade, a bit - the Sword of Dios wasn't that thin.

Lightice wrote:

Lets not forget that the Sword of Dios was magical by nature so any weaknesses the sword design might suffer from would be negated by the magical quality it holds within.

Point, though as a sword-manic I say that no matter how magical it is, steel is steel and gold is gold. emot-wink
Or as Saionji would say, "it may be the Sword of Dios but it doesn't have any special power, in itself. In the end it must be wielded by a great swordsman!"

Well you think the typical prince stereotype has a broadsword, but that really would have been stunningly ridiculous if pitted against wussy little rapiers.

You can do surprising things with a rapier. Back in the day when the English all used rapiers, those unsporting Scots still fought with huge claymores and backswords. Despite of this, a duel between an Englishman and a Scot was far from uneven, despite of their weapons. It's very difficult to make a proper lunge, when the enemy has a thin, long spike waiting for you.

If someone comes at you with a massive katana and you have a rapier, you don't even let metal hit metal.

Well, you can't help but to let metal hit metal, unless you got some serious dodging skills, usually associated with movie ninjas. But you won't let blades lock, period. Indeed, you never let the blades lock, even when you have a greatsword and enemy has a dagger. In any case, you both are going to hurt your wrists and propably drop your swords. And in any case, you'd end up having a kicking match, even if you manage to hold to your blade. Medieval swordfighting is...physical. Kicks, punches, locks and such moves are extremely common. The most classical double-attack involves the enemy parrying your blade, at which point you go with the flow and break his nose with the pommel.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#40 | Back to Top11-08-2006 06:10:15 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

Oh oh, I agree, I meant more in the context of animating a TV show. emot-redface

If Ikuhara had such a reportedly hard time of the duels, they'd have been that much harder trying to keep up with actual various sword styles, right?

I wish he had though, seems like an odd thing to get lazy about...


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#41 | Back to Top11-08-2006 08:52:03 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Right or Left Handed?

Giovanna wrote:

If Ikuhara had such a reportedly hard time of the duels, they'd have been that much harder trying to keep up with actual various sword styles, right?

I wish he had though, seems like an odd thing to get lazy about...

I suspect that the budget had a part to play in the issue. They just didn't have the funds for very many coreographies. Also, getting realistic fighting styles into animation is far more difficult and expensive than creating new ones, that seem better, drawn. And it happens pretty routinely in all series and films involving swordsmanship. I don't think that there is a single contemporary work that'd involve realistic swordplay, out there.
Some films involving rapier-duels get close and at least one black and white Zorro-film goes very well, but older European swords never get used like they're supposed to. Partially it's because it isn't very easy to follow by uneducated audience, who would consider the fight boring without understanding its nuances, but I also imagine that it'd be considered too brutal for most audiences.

I have no idea about Asian fighting styles, though I'd imagine that in Japan they'd at least try to make use of proper Kendo-moves, especially since it's propably to be expected that there'll always be at least a couple of Kendoists in the audience.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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