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Gougai! Gougai!

Hey I know you have opinions, put them in here! Translation suggestions for episodes 25-39, thanks all for your help!

ALSO!!! After the Revolution is now translated, scanlated, and ready for consumption! Thanks to everyone that's helped out! Ayu, you're awesome. Download here!

#1 | Back to Top07-06-2007 12:44:21 AM

Almaser
Qualified Duellist
From: Brisbane
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 727

Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

I HAVE MADE A GREAT DISCOVERY!

... Now that the self-aggrandizing is done, I really have made a discovery I think will interest many.

In the song "I Am an Imaginary Living Body," the phrase 'Anthropoperipherism' is not used at all. The kanji used, 人動説 Jindousetsu, can in fact be traced to a fairly obscure Japanese artist named Masarou Oomiya, who translates his term as "Homo-movens Theory." In other words, a theory of human motion.

He describes it thus (my translation);

Seiryou Oomiya wrote:

Until now, humanity has stood and watched, lived by thought, and created art. However, in the present day, people observe things while moving, are pressed upon by the need to consider them, and are even made to imitate them.  And so, even when in a state of rest, humans have become unable to escape this behaviour of 'mobile viewing.'
The latter half of "Breathing Landscapes" came about because even in photographs, I wanted to act as I wished.

Essentially, "Homo-Movens Theory Art" has no perspective. I wanted to create photographs which ignored perspective and had many points of focus. An important point is that humans do not view things in precise units of time. People should be able to enjoy both the time it takes them to consider an object and the afterimage. Furthermore, I personally dislike such lonely moments as 1/100th or 1/1000th of a second. Inside an instant, I desire a long or even a short breath. Breath is surplus. Breath is the rhythmn of human life. Having said there, no matter where you look, no one is selling a 'Camera that Breathes.' So having no other options, I began by making a camera that could breathe. It took roughly three years, and the result was one that, while awkward, moved as though taking breath. Thus did my photographs become (at times lengthily, and at other times slimly) "Breathing Photographs."

So, what is Homo-Movens Theory then, and why does it relate to Mikage?

My personal interpretation of Oomiya's statements is that he wants to express the motion of existence through photography, rather than stationary, isolated instances. This could be related to Mikage's own yearnings for eternity. In particular, what Mamiya says;

Mamiya wrote:

Eternity means that this moment lasts billions of billions of years, without end.

And what Mikage says to Utena before their duel:

Mikage wrote:

I know that you're the same as myself.
Your eyes are like those people who can't help wanting to make memories last forever.

It's the idea of making moments and memories last eternally that the Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage share - both want to capture life, but allow it to continue. Nemuro's attempts to keep Mamiya alive (which led to his becoming Mikage) mirror Oomiya's endeavours to create photographic representation of linear motion. Both are struggling to keep what they observe from fading, or becoming motionless.

Anyway, it's not a well-hammered-out theory, but it's what's come to me so far since I discovered the Homo-Movens Theory. Any thoughts?

Edit: Masarou. His name is Masarou. You wacky Japanese!

Last edited by Almaser (07-06-2007 04:10:26 AM)

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#2 | Back to Top07-06-2007 12:47:49 AM

ShatteredMirror
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From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

I think that's a very interesting way of looking at things. I wonder how it would be possible (would it even be possible?) for Oomiya's ideal style to become plausible.


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#3 | Back to Top07-06-2007 02:28:10 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
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Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

This certainly fits Mikage much better than 'Anthropoperipherism' (whatever that means...). I'm glad it got solved. Hee, I suppose translating those lyrics must have been a hard job 'cause translating is one thing but actually analysing and interpreting the surreal/metaphorical lyrics at the same time seems a bit too much to me.

poptart  etc-love to Almaser for solving this.


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#4 | Back to Top07-06-2007 03:00:30 AM

abraXas365
Ohtori Paramouri
From: 35 0'45"South 13846'32"East
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 92

Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

Thankyou for an enlightening read. I think your interpretation is sublime! Every question answered leads to another question asked... Can we see some of Seiryou's images?

In Utena 'breath' must often be held: held for escape from drowning. The recurrant theme of drowning: young utena rescued from a river, Touga's cat, Juri's sister, bubbles breaking 'Adolescence's scenes like that on the water's surface, each a trapped exhalation! Utena's stay in Ohtori sometimes seems as if it is taken in one breath. Something shifts in Utena like the change made to someone who has been to the brink of drowning only to be rescued.


http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f247/logophony/abraxas365.gif

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#5 | Back to Top07-06-2007 04:08:19 AM

Almaser
Qualified Duellist
From: Brisbane
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 727

Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/almaser/oomiya.jpg
The apparently iconic image of Homo-Movens Theory Art. I quite like it.

Gio brought up an interesting point on MSN earlier, too. Mikage is surrounded by the symbol of photographs. They coat the walls, they identify him as belonging to the past, and most importantly, they are the vessel by which the memory of Mamiya is expressed during his duel. This repetition of the image so often, coupled with the inclusion of Homo-movens theory in the duel song, makes me think that Ikuhara was very well versed in artistic conceptions of time and eternity.

Edit: Fixed for bad link

Last edited by Almaser (07-06-2007 04:09:13 AM)

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#6 | Back to Top07-06-2007 04:32:00 AM

abraXas365
Ohtori Paramouri
From: 35 0'45"South 13846'32"East
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 92

Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

It even looks like a reflection on the water's surface! Its a bit haunting isn't it... Those branches hide ominous shapes but that movement is captured well. A bit like the Cubist's fractured images - presenting more than one angle and more than one moment.

Last edited by abraXas365 (07-06-2007 04:32:53 AM)


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#7 | Back to Top07-06-2007 05:59:44 AM

Arki
Dark Whisperer
From: Croatia
Registered: 10-28-2006
Posts: 1120

Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

So... Through his photographs, in a way, he wants to show eternity in a single moment. While the 'regular' photographer takes a single moment and 'eternalizes' it. But it's still a single moment, lasting forever and ever. While Masarou, shows all moments, in a single one. Does that make sense?

I had more thoughts on this, but I'm not sure how to voice them yet. Quite an interesting find. Kudos for that. (:

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#8 | Back to Top07-06-2007 09:22:18 AM

Archambeau
Muffy, the Forums Trophy Wife
Registered: 11-20-2006
Posts: 499

Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

That really does tie in nicely.  Good sleuthing, Almaser.

Though the real detective work is to find the origin of "Anthropoperipherism," heh.

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#9 | Back to Top07-06-2007 10:51:00 AM

Nilamarthiel
The Icon Icon
From: Northern Michigan
Registered: 02-05-2007
Posts: 3972
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Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

When I read this, I can't help but think about the picture in the elevator of the butterfly reverting back to an egg on a leaf.

I'm glad you did all this! etc-love

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#10 | Back to Top07-06-2007 11:30:46 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
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Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

Impressive school-sherlock there, Almaser. You've succeeded in making me aware all over again of the abyssmal depth of SKU. Sometimes I wonder what kind of person Ikuhara is....This new insight just leads me to more questions...


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#11 | Back to Top07-06-2007 01:52:19 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

Almaser wrote:

Gio brought up an interesting point on MSN earlier, too. Mikage is surrounded by the symbol of photographs. They coat the walls, they identify him as belonging to the past, and most importantly, they are the vessel by which the memory of Mamiya is expressed during his duel. This repetition of the image so often, coupled with the inclusion of Homo-movens theory in the duel song, makes me think that Ikuhara was very well versed in artistic conceptions of time and eternity.

Also, the picture of (some of) the hundred duellists tends to move, doesn't it? It captures the act of them suddenly looking at something, rather than a 'still' photograph, which can't convey the abruptness of it.

This is a super cool topic, except it makes me wonder how much other stuff I always miss when watching the series.


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#12 | Back to Top07-07-2007 06:46:11 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8700
Website

Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

Archambeau wrote:

Though the real detective work is to find the origin of "Anthropoperipherism," heh.

Utena Translation notes for ep 23 wrote:

DS23::   given the name Anthropoperipherism.
I don't think such a term really exists, but the Japanese "jindousetsu" seems to be a made-up term analogized from "chidousetsu" (heliocentricism) and "tendousetsu" (geocentricism).

I think the translators just kinda pulled the word out of their ass, but the explanation of the Japanese origin of 'jindousetsu' is interesting in the context of this artist's idea in photography, and definitely applicable in the series.

There's an thought here of how a character like Mikage, or even Nemuro still, would interpret and apply Homo-Movens. In his mind the image captures the nature of time and motion for people, but he's interpreting it wrong in that to him, it functions like a camcorder. He's using the idea to create a permanence in one moment of life specifically, capturing the past when that's clearly not what the artist is trying to do. There's a lot of emphasis by the artist on the fluidity of life, that it's ever-changing, and Mikage sorta grasps the first part and misses the second. It's a misinterpretation but not an irrational one; to him the idea here isn't constant change, but that a chain of events, more than you can capture in a single picture, can be captured and repeated every time you 'look at the photograph'. There's an image of Mamiya on his desk. That image itself changes in a literal sense, since it was clearly of the real Mamiya at some point and it changed to the false one. But also, you could view it almost like to Mikage, that picture is the application of Homo-Movens, because it's an image that captures a period of time and lets him relive it over and over, as if that picture literally is alive in the Mamiya he speaks to now. In some deep and abstract way, maybe there is some understanding to him that Mamiya is dead, and he's just reliving Mamiya's life by watching a home movie over and over. The concept of 'fluidity' comes to him as being able to interact with that memory as though it were still alive.

I am making no sense. It's clear in my head but I have no idea how to articulate what I'm trying to get at here. emot-gonk


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#13 | Back to Top02-04-2009 12:25:20 PM

Nights1stStar
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From: Clawing Out of Her Coffin
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 157

Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

Are you sure "anthropoperipherism" isn't just a mistranslation or mispelling? I've seen several translations which use "anthropomorphism" instead. That word means "the representation of objects (especially gods) having or growing human characteristics or forms". And as much as the Homo-Movens Theory sounds fascinating, anthropomorphism seems to describe Mikage's situation better.


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#14 | Back to Top02-04-2009 12:35:39 PM

Riri-kins
World's End
From: Cloud Nine
Registered: 09-22-2008
Posts: 2336

Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

Wow, I've never heard of the Homo-Movens theory! That's an awesome essay.


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#15 | Back to Top11-11-2010 07:12:46 PM

winksniper
Qualified Duellist
From: Under the Cherry Moon
Registered: 09-11-2009
Posts: 764

Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

Necro'd because I just listened to the song, googled "anthropoperipherism" and this came up.  XD I find the essay really interesting, a nice perspective on things.  poptart

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#16 | Back to Top07-25-2017 11:11:02 AM

LadyButterflyNebula
Rose Smilee
From: Arkansas
Registered: 03-23-2017
Posts: 121
Website

Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

Almaser wrote:

I HAVE MADE A GREAT DISCOVERY!

... Now that the self-aggrandizing is done, I really have made a discovery I think will interest many.

In the song "I Am an Imaginary Living Body," the phrase 'Anthropoperipherism' is not used at all. The kanji used, 人動説 Jindousetsu, can in fact be traced to a fairly obscure Japanese artist named Masarou Oomiya, who translates his term as "Homo-movens Theory." In other words, a theory of human motion.

He describes it thus (my translation);

Seiryou Oomiya wrote:

Until now, humanity has stood and watched, lived by thought, and created art. However, in the present day, people observe things while moving, are pressed upon by the need to consider them, and are even made to imitate them.  And so, even when in a state of rest, humans have become unable to escape this behaviour of 'mobile viewing.'
The latter half of "Breathing Landscapes" came about because even in photographs, I wanted to act as I wished.

Essentially, "Homo-Movens Theory Art" has no perspective. I wanted to create photographs which ignored perspective and had many points of focus. An important point is that humans do not view things in precise units of time. People should be able to enjoy both the time it takes them to consider an object and the afterimage. Furthermore, I personally dislike such lonely moments as 1/100th or 1/1000th of a second. Inside an instant, I desire a long or even a short breath. Breath is surplus. Breath is the rhythmn of human life. Having said there, no matter where you look, no one is selling a 'Camera that Breathes.' So having no other options, I began by making a camera that could breathe. It took roughly three years, and the result was one that, while awkward, moved as though taking breath. Thus did my photographs become (at times lengthily, and at other times slimly) "Breathing Photographs."

So, what is Homo-Movens Theory then, and why does it relate to Mikage?

My personal interpretation of Oomiya's statements is that he wants to express the motion of existence through photography, rather than stationary, isolated instances. This could be related to Mikage's own yearnings for eternity. In particular, what Mamiya says;

Mamiya wrote:

Eternity means that this moment lasts billions of billions of years, without end.

And what Mikage says to Utena before their duel:

Mikage wrote:

I know that you're the same as myself.
Your eyes are like those people who can't help wanting to make memories last forever.

It's the idea of making moments and memories last eternally that the Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage share - both want to capture life, but allow it to continue. Nemuro's attempts to keep Mamiya alive (which led to his becoming Mikage) mirror Oomiya's endeavours to create photographic representation of linear motion. Both are struggling to keep what they observe from fading, or becoming motionless.

Anyway, it's not a well-hammered-out theory, but it's what's come to me so far since I discovered the Homo-Movens Theory. Any thoughts?

Edit: Masarou. His name is Masarou. You wacky Japanese!

Almaser wrote:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/almaser/oomiya.jpg
The apparently iconic image of Homo-Movens Theory Art. I quite like it.

Gio brought up an interesting point on MSN earlier, too. Mikage is surrounded by the symbol of photographs. They coat the walls, they identify him as belonging to the past, and most importantly, they are the vessel by which the memory of Mamiya is expressed during his duel. This repetition of the image so often, coupled with the inclusion of Homo-movens theory in the duel song, makes me think that Ikuhara was very well versed in artistic conceptions of time and eternity.

Edit: Fixed for bad link

Does anyone know where to find more of his work other than the above image?  I love this idea and look and I want more!

Last edited by LadyButterflyNebula (07-25-2017 11:11:31 AM)


Usubeni midarete manatsu no yo no yume yume
Tobitatsu kagerou koi kogarerou
Anata wo omoeba yume ni yume ni yume miru
Afureru yorokobi towa ni towa ni

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#17 | Back to Top07-25-2017 02:09:42 PM

At Times, Love Is
Touga Topper
Registered: 04-29-2016
Posts: 55

Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

I actually did find this when I was trying to research the phrase, but there's one problem: I couldn't find any sources that were old enough. The book The Art of Homo-Movens theory was only published in 2006, which is far too recent to have inspired a Black Rose song.
However! Now that you provided the artist's name, I was able to find a page tracing it back to 1992: http://art.p-alpha.ne.jp/omiya-masao/. So this is plausible after all!

Furthermore! A Japanese source which tends to be reliable in my experience (http://www.ne.jp/asahi/krk/kct/misc/utena_song.htm) actually seems to suggest the same thing; I had thought otherwise, but I realize now I'd misunderstood (I'm still learning Japanese, and I knew even less then). Here is what it says, if I understand it correctly: "A coined word patterned after the geocentric and heliocentric model. If the heavens and the earth are spheres, people too are spheres."

This site also identified the "lunify, lunacize" passage from The Sea Moon Dies in Indigo as being patterned after a quote from a short story by Borges (pretty much impossible to translate decently without this knowledge), and it explained what クシュ� デュメー was (very obscure term for a specific historical pair of conjoined twins known as the Scottish Brothers--and no, I don't know what language it's from, though I've tried and tried). The one time I didn't believe it and thought another source was more likely (the "Rudolf" in Puchi Banshou), I ended up realizing I was wrong after all (the one source I'm finding for the meaning of クシュ� デュメー also talks heavily about Emperor Rudolf, and he was outright mentioned in at least one of the songs on the new CD, so... yeah, pretty sure that is the right Rudolf).

So basically, even though I'd considered this, I didn't believe it, but now that someone else brought it up and had more details, I was able to find enough to convince me, so I really appreciate that. This is a great discovery you made!

If no one else has yet, I'm going to suggest this as a translation change for the Utena Blu-Rays, since Nozomi is taking suggestions for the Black Rose Arc right now. Edit: Someone has, good.

Last edited by At Times, Love Is (07-25-2017 02:10:56 PM)

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#18 | Back to Top08-02-2017 11:06:15 PM

purple-riot
New Student
Registered: 08-02-2017
Posts: 9

Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

I was trying to investigate this too, to see if it was true that anthroperipherism was an error. It does seem that that word was probably made up for the sake of translating 人動説. When I looked that up, I got this thread and some things about Oomiya, as well as other people using the term as a counterpoint to geocentrism (天動説) and heliocentrism (地動説).

So I wanted to know whether Oomiya said it first. I struggled to find sources indicating when Oomiya first used the term, only that he did work along those lines decades ago. However, I did find one very old source: a 1977 J.A. Seazer album. It's possible that Oomiya was first (although the post above suggests he might not have used the term earlier than the 90s), but I couldn't find any connection between Seazer and Oomiya.

In short, I think they both used 人動説 independently of each other, either way with a meaning related to humans revolving around other things in the universe. Maybe the translation ought to be changed to something that conveys that meaning more obviously, but I'm not convinced that Homo-movens theory is the true origin of 人動説.



(PS: Hi! Obviously I'm new here.)

Last edited by purple-riot (08-02-2017 11:07:08 PM)


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#19 | Back to Top08-02-2017 11:51:57 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6002
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Re: Anthropoperipherism, Homo-Movens Theory and Mikage - A New Perspective

I do know what is being done with that, but I don't have permission yet to say. I'll ask about it. And welcome! etc-love


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