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Anime News Network asked Gio & Yasha to write an article about Utena, Empty Movement, and they totally called us superfans, omg. Think of it as a belated Valentine's to Utena, its fandom, and the excellent friendships we've made along the way. 20 Years of Utena Fandom with the Ultimate Superfans!!!

#1 | Back to Top03-08-2016 02:24:42 PM

pesimistamente
Mikage Mistruster
From: Barcelona [former epi]
Registered: 01-12-2016
Posts: 69

[late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

Maybe this has already been confirmed, maybe we all know already, but as the title says, this is a late analysis. I’ve been rewatching the show and I’ve been paying a closer attention to all the questions I used to have years ago. Could this two geniuses be the biological parents of Utena? Whatever, let’s go.

.
> Visual aesthetics

The first suspicion I had about this idea was purely visual.  If you combine Nemuro’s hair color with Tokiko’s bangs, you get Utena’s hair.

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_057.jpg?m=1380853749
a 70s nerd

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_069.jpg?m=1380853753
another 70s nerd

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/23/Series_ep23_045.jpg?m=1380853791
apparently if you breed two geniuses together you get the dumbest character in anime television ever

Mikage even mistakes the two of them. I know, Mikage is not the most reliable character when it comes to, well, ANYTHING, but stick with me on this one: he’s not mistaking Utena with Tokiko simply because he’s far gone, he might be seeing Utena’s mother whenever he looks at her. 

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/23/Series_ep23_073.jpg?m=1380853799
that's exactly how your mother looked at me when she found out I murdered them all!

Tokiko’s hairstyle is a little tricky, though. It could be a short haircut, or it could simply be styled in such way while remaining long.

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_094.jpg?m=1380853759http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_205.jpg?m=1380853779

You know, maybe she always had her hair long. Maybe she was just combing it. You know. Like. UTENA. DOES. IN THE MOVIE.

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Movie/Character_Designs/Utena/Utena_Design_14.png?m=1380884649
I need a buzzfeed tutorial to understand this

Tokiko’s hairstyle is exactly the same as Utena’s hairstyle in the movie, both short and long versions.

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Movie/Character_Designs/Utena/Utena_Design_01.jpg?m=1380884628 http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Character_Designs/Dios_Akio_Chu-Chu_Mikage_Mamiya_Tokiko/Designs_MiscChar_11.png?m=1380874579

.
> The mysterious random secretary


At one of the most thrilling episodes of the show (ep. 23 “Qualifications of a Duellist”) we understand many things, and we understand that we don’t understand so much more. We confirm that time and space don’t really matter in the Ohtori Universe. Perhaps one of the most notable examples of this is when a 30-something Tokiko walks pass a 17 year old Nemuro/Mikage. She later talks about this with Akio. "You haven't aged a day".

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_194.jpg?m=1380853777
Hello

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_195.jpg?m=1380853777
it's me

Which led me to wonder. There's this super random character in this super important episode: a secretary that is leaving Ohtori. Apparently, she used to work for Nemuro/Mikage and she has a lot to say to him, she says she fell in love with someone who wasn't younger than her, and that she can finally "let her hair down". We can't see her up close, but she looks a lot like Tokiko.

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/23/Series_ep23_037.jpg?m=1380853790

secretary:  A visitor, at the Entrance Hall.
Mikage:  Thank you. I'll be right there.
secretary:  Well, there's a car waiting for me, so I'll be going now.
Mikage:  I see. Thank you for the work you've done.
secretary:  Telling me to get out so suddenly was so like you, to the very end. That's just how it was the first time we met: you saying "Be my secretary," out of the blue. But it's all right. I can let my hair down now that I'm free of your yoke. I wonder how I looked from your point of view.
Mikage:  You are you.
secretary:  You're certainly some kind of special person, perhaps one of the chosen. But the person I fell in love with wasn't a boy younger than me, like you.
Mikage:  I am me.
secretary:  Well then, goodbye.

I always interpreted this scene as new information about how obssesed Nemuro/Mikage was with Tokiko, to the point of hiring people who looked like her and made them wear the same outfit and hairstyle as she did. But if time doesn't work and adult!Tokiko crossed paths with Mikage, WHAT IF THIS PERSON *IS* TOKIKO? What if her hair is long, as Utena's in the movie and as herself in the future, and this is the exact moment when she stops wearing it like that? What if this is the moment when they last saw each other, before crossing paths in the hallway, when he hadn't aged a day and she had aged 15 years? If we follow this idea, then we have to pay attention to the next scene:

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/23/Series_ep23_042.jpg?m=1380853791

Tokiko crossed paths with Utena when she left Ohtori, just before she crossed paths with Mikage with a 15 year age gap difference. In Nemuro's timeline, it's been minutes, but in Tokiko's timeline it's been years.
She's also carrying a pink suitcase with her. I'm not analysing this now, but just remember that.

.
> Symbolism: The pointing hands & their meeting

There is a huge amount of symbolism during this episode, so I will not fo beyond this sequence. The rest of the pointing hands seems to imply Nemuro was also attracted to men and several other possibilities, but let's try to stick with what's relevant between Tokiko and Nemuro:

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_071.jpg?m=1380853754
1 adult cat, 1 man

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_072.jpg?m=1380853754
Tokiko pouring tea

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_075.jpg?m=1380853754
2 adult cats, 2 human adults

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_074.jpg?m=1380853754
This is not pointed but hey, two rose petals floating on tea!

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_077.jpg?m=1385777509
2 adult cats and 1 kitten, 2 human adults

Each cat is each adult in the room, why do we have a kitten all of the sudden?

.
> The Shadow Girls

C-ko:  Extra! Extra! Extra!
C-ko (mom):  Your dad was a class rep at your age.
C-ko (daughter):  Wow, that's great, dad!
C-ko (mom):  Hey, you, what's with this paperwork? It's terrible!
C-ko (dad):  Shit, even though I was a class rep back when!
C-ko (mom):  Honey, you can't just leave your socks here when you take them off, it's terrible!
C-ko (dad):  Shit, even though I was a class rep back when!
C-ko (daughter):  Well, I'm off to school, dad!
C-ko (dad):  Wait! Give me that school backpack! Your dad'll go to school!

emot-gonk emot-gonk emot-gonk emot-gonk emot-gonk

.
>
Here's my take. Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's biological parents. The sequence with the secretary is the last time Tokiko and Nemuro spoke, and Tokiko took with her a pink suitcase symbolizing the extra baggage (Utena). Considering the terms in which their relationship ended (plus mass murder), Tokiko gave her daugther for adoption. We see Tokiko crossing paths with her 15 year old daugther before she was born when she was leaving, and minutes later a 30-something Tokiko crossed paths again with a very young Nemuro.

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_117.jpg?m=1380853763
wibbly wobbly timey-wimey

I might be extremely late to the party, but WELL this is my take.

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#2 | Back to Top03-08-2016 06:23:52 PM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 505

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

This is really cool theory, but how did Utena end up in that coffin then? Was it staged? why was there a funeral? Was she given up for adoption, then her adoptive parents died?

I guess I could see the adopted parents dying and then this playing out...

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#3 | Back to Top03-08-2016 08:32:53 PM

pesimistamente
Mikage Mistruster
From: Barcelona [former epi]
Registered: 01-12-2016
Posts: 69

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

Considering the terms in which their relationship ended (plus mass murder), I can imagine Tokiko giving her daughter up for adoption.

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#4 | Back to Top03-09-2016 09:59:55 AM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

This is one of those theories that have been floating about for ages and while I don't subscribe to it you have made a great case for it. I prefer 'my' rather oddball theory in which Mikage is Utena's *son* but it's just a crackpot idea that amuses me.


Is Tokiko only in her 30's, though? It has been a long time since I watched  these episodes and need a rewatch but from what I recall she seemed older. I was under the impression that she was in her 40's when she met Akio in the present timeline.

There is another anime that may be worth mentioning here, I will spoiler-tag the entire discussion since many may not have seen it:

[Stardriver. It shares some of its staff with SKU and while it is not half as multi-layered it does play with a few similar themes. It features as canonical a situation that is very much like the fan-theory of Mikage and Tokiko: the villain ends up being the hero's father who has not aged. Head, said father, has remained in a state of 'frozen time' very much like Mikage and just like him he let an intense obsession over a convuloted plan completely derail his sanity. Head appears to be the same age as Takuto, his son, and I can't exactly recall what happened to the mother but she does leave the island. She is also deeply disappointed with Head, then 'Tokio's', turn for the insane.

Head has something of a warped perception of time which is doubly ironic considering his original name was 'Tokio'. But unlike Mikage from what I remember Head gets away with all the pain he caused almost- if not entirely-scot free. Head has no major breakdown and at the end of the series he seems to sort of shrug it all off.

There is also an interesting parallel between Mikage and the You twins but that is not very germane to this particular discussion.
]

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#5 | Back to Top05-12-2016 09:41:24 AM

ShiningSanctum1
Touga Topper
Registered: 11-23-2012
Posts: 57

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

Hey I just found this thread that you were talking about in the other Mikage thread. I do think your kitten, rose petal, and pink baggage theory makes sense now that I see it. But my question is, how come the show never revealed Utena was adopted? Also it seems that Mikage never slept with Tokiko.


Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why it is called the present.

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#6 | Back to Top05-12-2016 12:59:39 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2737

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

Her aunt was raising her in the manga, so there's that. But, really, the show never deals with anyone's parents except in odd little fugues or hey, Anthy's your stepmom.

It could just be thematic, too, but really, with SKU more than most things being thematic is more real than being narratively real.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#7 | Back to Top05-13-2016 09:02:49 PM

pesimistamente
Mikage Mistruster
From: Barcelona [former epi]
Registered: 01-12-2016
Posts: 69

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

This is just for bonus but apparently pink turtle necks was the unofficial 90's anime mom's uniform.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/evangelion/images/3/30/Yui_ep_21.png/revision/latest?cb=20120707173608

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_086.jpg?m=1380853758

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#8 | Back to Top05-13-2016 09:09:03 PM

pesimistamente
Mikage Mistruster
From: Barcelona [former epi]
Registered: 01-12-2016
Posts: 69

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

ShiningSanctum1 wrote:

Hey I just found this thread that you were talking about in the other Mikage thread. I do think your kitten, rose petal, and pink baggage theory makes sense now that I see it. But my question is, how come the show never revealed Utena was adopted? Also it seems that Mikage never slept with Tokiko.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

Her aunt was raising her in the manga, so there's that. But, really, the show never deals with anyone's parents except in odd little fugues or hey, Anthy's your stepmom.
It could just be thematic, too, but really, with SKU more than most things being thematic is more real than being narratively real.

Utena is heavily symbolic and theatrical, all the duel song lyrics even the opening are meticulously pinned in specific moments, they put a lot on effort on symbolism. They never fully *show* it and yet, in Nemuro's episode, we are given pointing hands, blinking and beeping, almost begging us to pay attention. They don't bother in giving us so much about other antagonists (look at Akio or at Touga, we know almost nothing of them by the end of the series), but with Nemuro is veeery different. We get to see his point of view, we get to explore it all, they want us to see it. Why would they want us to pay *so* much attention on Nemuro's backstory? Why the 70s theme on all his memories? Why defining a timeline? There is simply no need for it. And the shadow girls monologue its simply too much to ignore.

In addition, Mikage/Utena also have strong parallelisms in their narratives; we are hinted that Nemuro was attracted to men (as seen in the blinking hands pointing at two scientists holding hands), he probably did have some sort of feelings for Mamiya. These feelings become explicit in his idealized version of himself (Mikage), while in their time together probably never had the chance to even understand those feelings. Tokiko was a respectable lady who showed him interest and eventually he felt used by her. Tokiko is in many ways Nemuro's "prince": that person that in fairy tales was supposed to share a happy ending with him. If Utena has a triangle between two siblings (Akio/Anthy), Nemuro also had his triangle between siblings (Tokiko/Mamiya). One of the siblings is an older person of the opposite gender (Akio/Tokiko, the "princes"), while the younger being of the same gender (Anthy/Mamiya, the "princesses"). Even if they show us just a small hint of Nemuro's shattered mind, they don't need or want to show it all, but instead they fill the episode with symbols everywhere, in every minute. They don't need to show something explicitly in order to show it in other ways, and parallelisms is just one of them. Utena had sex with her prince, it wouldn't be hard to mirror Nemuro falling for the same.

Akio and Tokiko are two adults in a world of teenagers, they hold power, have their own agenda and can use sex as a tool. Tokiko had a very clear goal and manipulated Nemuro for it, learning this hard reality is what eventually destroyed him. Arguably, this also happens to Utena with Akio, plus explicit sex. Why wouldn't we believe Tokiko could take it just as far?

Let's remember that Mikage and Nemuro are not exactly the same character, Mikage is just a shadow / ideal version and almost ghostly-like manifestation of someone who lived in Ohtori several years ago. Mikage is a shadow of someone else, and if Nemuro was indeed Utena's father, she's dueling against the shadow of her father, not her actual father.

Last edited by pesimistamente (05-13-2016 09:25:29 PM)

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#9 | Back to Top05-14-2016 11:47:59 AM

ShiningSanctum1
Touga Topper
Registered: 11-23-2012
Posts: 57

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

pesimistamente wrote:

This is just for bonus but apparently pink turtle necks was the unofficial 90's anime mom's uniform.

Chu...

Chu...

Omg this is hilarious! Also I read your reply. I had to go back and watch Episode 22 since it's been forever since I've last seen it. And you are right, it's so obvious that Tokiko was using Mikage now! She used her brother's illness to get Mikage to feel sympathy for her, then used Mikage for her work. I think Mikage's burning the building was out of revenge after realizing Tokiko was using him.


Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why it is called the present.

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#10 | Back to Top05-24-2016 12:08:58 AM

pesimistamente
Mikage Mistruster
From: Barcelona [former epi]
Registered: 01-12-2016
Posts: 69

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

ShiningSanctum1 wrote:

I think Mikage's burning the building was out of revenge after realizing Tokiko was using him.

I never thought of it that way but makes some sense. I always thought he was deluded in that point as well, that he was being manipulated by Anthy!Mamiya and fullfilling the "sacrifice" Akio asked him to do.

But maybe that's also a heavily dissorted memory as well, since I'm pretty sure Real!Mamiya was dead at that point already. That could fix timelines a little bit, if Mikage's memory of Anthy!Mamiya was just an illusion and not an actual fact; Nemuro might have burned the building down out of revenge, and in Mikage's version he burned it down to help someone out.

Damn.

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#11 | Back to Top06-07-2016 04:19:28 PM

BlueRoseTree
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 08-02-2009
Posts: 10

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

I've always thought the Mikage & Mamiya couple was a dark version of Utena & Anthy, hence the parallels, although coloristically Mikage and Mamiya are actually "washed out" Utena and Anthy (compare the colors of their respective hair, skin, clothing):

Chu...

If we assume that Nemuro started from a similarly selfless point as Utena (venturing to "gain eternity" in order to save Mamiya) and failed, or realized halfway through that he was being played by Tokiko, and ended up going insane/turning evil (the murdered boys, the black rose instead of a white one, the relationship with Mamiya fully consummated), then we could see it as a simulation of what could potentially happen to Utena if she ended up as yet another promising duelist that didn't make it.

The washed out colors seem to suggest that they are indeed shadows of a previous batch of puppets that are being recycled to spice up the current game.


go fave my Utena fanart at  Chu...

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#12 | Back to Top06-07-2016 08:10:53 PM

DefineMask
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 05-14-2016
Posts: 26

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

BlueRoseTree wrote:

I've always thought the Mikage & Mamiya couple was a dark version of Utena & Anthy, hence the parallels, although coloristically Mikage and Mamiya are actually "washed out" Utena and Anthy (compare the colors of their respective hair, skin, clothing):

Chu...

If we assume that Nemuro started from a similarly selfless point as Utena (venturing to "gain eternity" in order to save Mamiya) and failed, or realized halfway through that he was being played by Tokiko, and ended up going insane/turning evil (the murdered boys, the black rose instead of a white one, the relationship with Mamiya fully consummated), then we could see it as a simulation of what could potentially happen to Utena if she ended up as yet another promising duelist that didn't make it.

The washed out colors seem to suggest that they are indeed shadows of a previous batch of puppets that are being recycled to spice up the current game.

I was thinking Mikage really was her dad since Tokiko does look explicitly like Utena. However, your analysis sounds really good too. Like you say, He could just be a foil to Utena while they are so much alike physically.

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#13 | Back to Top03-08-2017 02:51:08 PM

Wolfgang
New Student
From: Barcelona, Spain
Registered: 03-08-2017
Posts: 5

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

Well, this is intense.

First of all (and a  little offtopic) I always thought that Tokiko has a lot of Yui Ikari because Hideaki Anno and Ikuhara have a strong friendship (and later Anno gives a reference of Utena/Anthy coffin scene in one of the Evangelion Rebuilds), and somehow Mikage reminds me of Gendo with his obsession with Yui / Tokiko, with the difference of theri personalities, ofc.

Symbolism: The pointing hands & their meeting:

The point of the rose petals seems to me that's for Mamiya, who cares of roses like Anthy. The color of the petals are for Mikage.

Your analysis is quite accurate, but I feel like the issue like BlueRoseTree; not at all for Mikage, but more for Tokiko, the important point in Utena is that her parents are dead: it's a metaphor, ofc, but why Tokiko, that transcends her problems and traumas can't care about Utena if is she her mother? It's the only fact that don't make sense.

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#14 | Back to Top03-08-2017 02:57:30 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8602
Website

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

pesimistamente wrote:

This is just for bonus but apparently pink turtle necks was the unofficial 90's anime mom's uniform.

Chu...

Chu...

Holy shit. Dollars to donuts this was not an accident. SKU and Eva are like the incestuous pairing of anime.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#15 | Back to Top03-09-2017 08:43:20 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2903

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

Giovanna wrote:

pesimistamente wrote:

This is just for bonus but apparently pink turtle necks was the unofficial 90's anime mom's uniform.

Chu...

Chu...

Holy shit. Dollars to donuts this was not an accident. SKU and Eva are like the incestuous pairing of anime.

It doesn't help that Nemuro is wearing Gendo's glasses and a pair of gloves.

I mean, we've mentioned it in passing a lot, but have we ever just sat down and looked for Evangelion references in SKU?


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#16 | Back to Top03-10-2017 01:30:57 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8602
Website

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

Well supposedly Anno is a huge like fanboy of Ikuhara, and their conversations kind of imply more of a one way direction influence. But I bet I could still find some Evangelion in SKU...it'll just be more subtle I think that Anno literally doing homages.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#17 | Back to Top03-10-2017 05:47:42 AM

RoseandRelease
Miki Molester
Registered: 10-12-2013
Posts: 32
Website

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

I was actually just thinking about this the other day when I noticed that the Geofront has a very similar silhouette to the castle:https://s15.postimg.org/4p9zu0h6j/1172.jpg

I'm doubtful as to whether the resemblance was in any way intentional, but it's an interesting thought.

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#18 | Back to Top03-10-2017 09:45:32 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 5954
Website

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

Seriously, if there are Eva references in Utena that we haven't seen, I'd be so impressed. Now you've got my hopes up!


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#19 | Back to Top03-13-2017 06:05:00 AM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1221
Website

Re: [late analysis] Tokiko and Nemuro are Utena's parents

RoseandRelease wrote:

I was actually just thinking about this the other day when I noticed that the Geofront has a very similar silhouette to the castle: Chu...

I'm doubtful as to whether the resemblance was in any way intentional, but it's an interesting thought.

*looks at image*

.....

*looks at SKE*

.....

*looks back at image*

.....

*looks back at SKE*

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKK.





I suddenly have the desire to go back and rework a 15 year old fanfiction. This is not a good impulse.

Last edited by Ashnod (03-13-2017 06:06:20 AM)


Flowers without names blooming in the field can only sway in the wind. But I was born with a destiny of roses, born to live in passion and glory.

Chu...
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