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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1026 | Back to Top11-08-2016 10:03:04 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Politics

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

I'm very cool, very chill. I'm going to show my class Pee-Wee's Playhouse to keep chill.

But, when I come back to the States, I'm going to find everyone I know who voted third party this year and kick them somewhere painful when they least expect it.

Noticing the popular vote margin between Hillary and Clinton is roughly equal to the votes for Gary Johnson too?

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#1027 | Back to Top11-08-2016 10:04:37 PM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: Politics

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

I'm very cool, very chill. I'm going to show my class Pee-Wee's Playhouse to keep chill.

But, when I come back to the States, I'm going to find everyone I know who voted third party this year and kick them somewhere painful when they least expect it.

And while you're at it, scream 'ALEPPO'. They may not get it, though.

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#1028 | Back to Top11-08-2016 10:05:46 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Politics

Nocturnalux wrote:

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

I'm very cool, very chill. I'm going to show my class Pee-Wee's Playhouse to keep chill.

But, when I come back to the States, I'm going to find everyone I know who voted third party this year and kick them somewhere painful when they least expect it.

And while you're at it, scream 'ALEPPO'. They may not get it, though.

Oh, god. emot-roflemot-roflemot-rofl I needed that.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#1029 | Back to Top11-08-2016 10:08:28 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Politics

The popular vote margin is actually not the problem.  As I type this, the Times projects Clinton to win the popular vote by between 1 and 1.5 points (i.e. over a million votes).  Her problem is that a whoooole lot of those votes come from racking up really big margins in states like New York and California that were always going to vote for her.  The most likely outcome right now seems to be that she will win the popular vote, but lose the Electoral College.  Her remaining paths to victory all include winning either Arizona or Michigan, both of which are leaning very decidedly red right now, as well as Pennsylvania, which amazingly also looks to be going for Trump.  President Trump, at this point, is almost certainly going to be a thing.

It's hard to understand what's happening.  It's hard to know how much to fear for my friends, and my country.

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#1030 | Back to Top11-08-2016 10:12:26 PM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: Politics

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

Nocturnalux wrote:

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

I'm very cool, very chill. I'm going to show my class Pee-Wee's Playhouse to keep chill.

But, when I come back to the States, I'm going to find everyone I know who voted third party this year and kick them somewhere painful when they least expect it.

And while you're at it, scream 'ALEPPO'. They may not get it, though.

Oh, god. emot-roflemot-roflemot-rofl I needed that.

I'm glad I was able to bring some amount of comfort in this dreadful, dreadful mess.

My heart goes out to all of you from across the pond. I am this distraught and I'm not even an American citizen so I can only imagine what you must be going through.

Last edited by Nocturnalux (11-08-2016 10:12:45 PM)

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#1031 | Back to Top11-08-2016 11:02:31 PM

yusaku
String Theorist
From: Kansas City
Registered: 03-09-2014
Posts: 180

Re: Politics

I think someone saw this coming.
https://youtu.be/YwZ0ZUy7P3E


***The world is one large Rose Academy!!!***

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#1032 | Back to Top11-08-2016 11:29:52 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
Website

Re: Politics

I am generally a spectator citizen. I vote of course, but I find the process generally amusing.

This isn't funny anymore.

The status of POCs. Reproductive rights. Global civility. Right to religion.

I just tried to see how I could help my family immigrate up to Canada, and apparently I need my citizenship first. I tried to get at the applications...and the Canadian immigration site is down.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#1033 | Back to Top11-08-2016 11:38:52 PM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: Politics

Giovanna wrote:

I am generally a spectator citizen. I vote of course, but I find the process generally amusing.

This isn't funny anymore.

The status of POCs. Reproductive rights. Global civility. Right to religion.

I just tried to see how I could help my family immigrate up to Canada, and apparently I need my citizenship first. I tried to get at the applications...and the Canadian immigration site is down.

That site seems to go down whenever there is something troubling in American politics going on. I remember back in the primaries or very early into the actual race, Trump said something outrageous, as he is wont to do, and that site immediately went down as it could not handle the sudden inflow of traffic from the States.

I am so sad for you all, so, so utterly sad that I cannot even express it properly.

Last edited by Nocturnalux (11-08-2016 11:39:21 PM)

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#1034 | Back to Top11-09-2016 01:09:58 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Politics

People I barely know where stopping me on the street, here in China, in hallways, even from the next stall over in the restroom to ask what I know about the election and how it's going down.

I think now that it's down to the wire and Trump still looks like a serious contender, it's less funny even for people significantly removed.

[edit: I hadn't seen the results were actually in. Fuck.]


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#1035 | Back to Top11-09-2016 01:20:05 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
Website

Re: Politics

It's over.

This is what America wants.

I just...can't even.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#1036 | Back to Top11-09-2016 01:46:02 AM

Amasis
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 05-23-2016
Posts: 40

Re: Politics

=_=

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#1037 | Back to Top11-09-2016 01:46:24 AM

malna
Caretaker
From: Poland
Registered: 10-03-2011
Posts: 209

Re: Politics

Four years of watching train wreck ahead of us. Trippy, eh?

I honestly didn't believe it would come to this. Just like with Brexit.
Baltics have most likely already bitten all their collective nails by now.


a lot of hope in one man tent

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#1038 | Back to Top11-09-2016 01:53:17 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Politics

I was mad at Obama for not taking more action re the current disaster up north, fighting the pipeline. I'm not so much afraid as I am settled with the idea that Trump's just going to be sending in death squads.

He's going to Nixon his way through this more than I thought.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#1039 | Back to Top11-09-2016 06:21:57 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Politics

I don't know what happens over the next four years.  Best-case scenario, Trump turns out to be just another politician who talks big but does nothing once in office, Senate Democrats are disciplined and use the filibuster freely, and Republicans are split internally (some of them want nothing to do with what Trump stands for) and can't consistently vote together.  Worst-case scenario, Republicans use rulemaking procedures at the start of the term to abolish the filibuster and enjoy unchecked legislative power, Trump actually does the things he said he would do, and the normalization of bigotry and misogyny emboldens some white guys to commit violence against already-oppressed groups, leading to the fear of fascism becoming the reality of fascism.  And I genuinely do not know which of those scenarios is more likely.

I feel pretty lucky that my girlfriend is a Canadian citizen.  I am doing some research, if the Canadian immigration website ever stops crashing from too much load on its servers.

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#1040 | Back to Top11-09-2016 06:32:59 AM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Politics

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I definitely don't feel fine.

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#1041 | Back to Top11-09-2016 12:58:10 PM

Kita-Ysabell
Covert Diarist
Registered: 11-18-2012
Posts: 818
Website

Re: Politics

Fuck.  Just… fuck.

I really did not think that it would end up this way.  I really wish there was a place I could scream, but that tends to get the police called on you in the city.

Welp, time to start researching nonviolent conflict techniques in preparation for the coming storm.  And maybe see if there really is a movement for the secession of Cascadia I can hop on board with.  I refuse to leave, and I refuse to live with whatever bullshit is coming down the pipeline.  There will be a way to fight back and I will find that way.


"Et in Arcadio ego..."

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#1042 | Back to Top11-09-2016 02:17:06 PM

Astrinde
Tenjou Tilter
From: New Orleans
Registered: 01-26-2016
Posts: 89
Website

Re: Politics

I agree about the necessity of nonviolent techniques; to that end, Here's Everywhere You Can Protest Donald Trump Tonight.

I'm proud of New Orleans for not voting Trump and for coming together on such short notice after the devastating result.  And I'm clinging to that right now.

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#1043 | Back to Top11-09-2016 04:42:13 PM

gpink
Eternal Castellan
Registered: 11-21-2009
Posts: 265

Re: Politics

Ugh, guess I'm now planning to do my masters outside the United States. I can't believe given the behavior of Trump that he got elected.  At least the democratic state senator I voted for got elected.

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#1044 | Back to Top11-09-2016 08:35:19 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: Politics

Okay, so, I went to the State Fair last night. Had the time of my fucking life. I got to watch dogs do tricks (one of them had three legs!), I got to watch circus acts and one of the youngest escape artists in the country. I had alligator meat. I had a $13 funnel cake with apples, caramel and whipped cream.

AND THEN I SAW THE ELECTION RESULTS WHEN I GOT HOME. emot-frown

Like, i was in my fucking feelings all damn day. ALL DAY. Then my coworker pointed out to me that
a) President-elect Dumpster Fire was probably lying about half the stuff he wanted to do,
b) If he wasn't, most of it isn't going to get through Congress anyway, even with a Republican majority,
c) If anything does go through, it's going to be immigration stuff and repealing the Affordable Care Act.
d) The real problems are dealing with the general population who may decide to be a lot less stealthy with their racism, sexism, etc. and Congress trying to pass shady shit thinking he's too dumb or lazy to read any of it.

Then I got off of work, had six glasses of wine, and read hisplan for the first 100 days. It looks more libertarian than I expected, which means I'm laughing my ass off because 80% of that isn't going to get through Congress.

Also, his entire anti-abortion platform vanished from his website at some point, so I find that rather suspect.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#1045 | Back to Top11-10-2016 03:42:49 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
Website

Re: Politics

Satyr, just ask me! emot-smile

When you apply for residency based on marriage you will have to prove your relationship is legit; phone or email records (not necessarily the actual text of course), photos of the relationship and wedding, and so forth. Getting your shit in order is the hardest part, but applying as an outland applicant (ie. not wanting to be in Canada or work there as the process develops) makes it take 6 months or so rather than 2 years, since the US embassy does your paperwork instead of Ontario.

Applying as a skilled worker is a great deal harder and only an option as far as I know for people who can prove they are needed. Or they can buy in, but you know, guessing not an option.

Either way it is a legitimate thing to consider. I absolutely love Canada and don't regret coming here for a minute. In fact at this point I'm prouder to be a landed immigrant here than a citizen of the US. Canada isn't for everyone--there are things here that would be a real challenge for some Americans to swallow, and once in a while I'm shocked by how different it is here. But by an large, Canada owns.

As for Trump, my guess is going to be the former, that he'll turn out to be just another politician/gameplayer. I'm more worried about the senate, and the potential mess of a SCOTUS we have on our hands. It won't be Trump himself that does the damage in this scenario. But whether you think he means what he campaigned on or not, there's no denying this is a very bad day for a lot of groups that aren't white males. Trump is a jackass and never much worried me--what worries me is the rhetoric and behavior of the mob that follows him. During his victory speech someone in the crowd shouted 'hang Obama,' and Youtube is full of rallies where people are literally screaming racist epithets and wearing shirts that insult Hillary's gender.

I don't want to believe we can be this hateful. I know as animals we become vicious when we feel cornered, and a lot of Americans feel that way. Why they feel that way, well sometimes is legitimate, and sometimes a product of a lot of factors that are both not their fault and very much the country's fault. But right now, there are large numbers of Americans that think the solution is...this. Racism, bigotry, and a combative attitude.

But you know what? I'm sitting on a high horse, and I know it. Because even while I'm trying to understand why people voted for him, mostly I'm internally screaming that it's because they're uneducated jackass hicks with no capacity to look past the rotting trucks parked in their yards. Part of me believes they deserve better than that, and most of me agrees their voices should be heard. But I have to say, I've seen little to justify my hopes there. And a lot to suggest that a lot of disgruntled, frustrated Americans aren't looking for consensus and resolution. But instead someone to blame.

Make America Great Again definitely has more ring than Hillary's slogans. I get that. But it's part of a disappointing tradition, especially in the Republican party, of selling fear, and anger, and it builds a campaign on the golden age fallacy. Whether you liked his politics or not, Obama didn't sell that, even though he probably could have given the economic climate he first ran in. He sold hope. Enthusiasm. Faith in the country as a whole. Hillary tried to do this, to some extent, but I don't blame people for not buying in. There's a lot to dislike about her. But she loves the country she's in, believes in it, and wants to see it do well. America is still a fucking child on the global stage, and children don't thrive when they have their previous report cards rubbed in their face. They thrive when they are directed toward improving their future ones.

I really, really hope this goes better now than the campaign did. But education isn't America's strong suit, and the old chestnut about repeating the past is strong with me today.

Edit: The term limits thing sounds good and in principle I'm behind it. But there should then also be term limits on lobbyists. Because you'll give the lobby groups a lot more power if they get the experience as senators come and go. And sweet jesus lord in heaven is our environment just right fucked. At this rate reproductive rights won't matter in a couple generations anyway.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#1046 | Back to Top11-10-2016 05:22:08 AM

malna
Caretaker
From: Poland
Registered: 10-03-2011
Posts: 209

Re: Politics

Giovanna wrote:

I don't want to believe we can be this hateful.

Yes, we can?
I've been reading so many comments praising Trump for his victory over this pesky political correctness, leftists, 'the system', and saying how wonderful he is for speaking his mind freely. I suppose many people now will follow suit - his upcoming presidency certainly encourages the masses to being their hateful, racist, misogynist selves more openly.
I'm sick of it already and it's just their first wave of enthusiasm.

(Oh, I'm saying all this as someone whose country has been governed for over a year now by a party appealing to nationalist, separatist, anti-refugee tendencies among their considerable electorate.)

Last edited by malna (11-10-2016 05:28:20 AM)


a lot of hope in one man tent

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#1047 | Back to Top11-10-2016 05:33:12 AM

gpink
Eternal Castellan
Registered: 11-21-2009
Posts: 265

Re: Politics

America can be a lot more hateful than this. Trump is and will be judged by the people he associates with. He may not be a racist or unstable but presenting that persona to the public will attract people who are unstable and racist. Day one street protests means a banana republic period.

Gio, you are being far too respectful of Donald Trump voters. In the worst case scenario there are people who had factory jobs and were unable to do ANY other kind of skilled work and do not have the ABILITY to learn or think. These people will blame china and any other vague "enemy"  globalization etc without under standing that one of the goals of the stereotypical factory is to replace all of the unskilled workers with technology. One of my instructors stated that these people tend to vote against their own interests. Remember in 2050 the racial makeup of America won't be what it is now so best interest would not be in return to the past.

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#1048 | Back to Top11-10-2016 06:52:47 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Politics

malna wrote:

I've been reading so many comments praising Trump for his victory over this pesky political correctness, leftists, 'the system', and saying how wonderful he is for speaking his mind freely. I suppose many people now will follow suit - his upcoming presidency certainly encourages the masses to being their hateful, racist, misogynist selves more openly.

I have a friend here in New Orleans who has been going to French Quarter gay bars for fifteen years and has never, in that time, been verbally abused... until late Tuesday night, when several different cars drove by with people yelling anti-gay slurs and saying things like "y'all are fucked now!"  Astrinde and I went to a demonstration last night, and his is not the only story like that.  I don't see a way not to blame Trump's rhetoric and victory for emboldening the bigots.  I hope it becomes crystal clear to everyone that this is true, and that this is dangerous, because not all the people who voted for Trump are racists, and they need to see that their vote has racist consequences.

gpink wrote:

Gio, you are being far too respectful of Donald Trump voters.

I don't agree.  I think one way we got into this mess was by dismissing people with the concerns and fears that you and Gio describe.  It was an easy mistake to make: you and I know that the economy is in one of the longest sustained periods of growth in our history, for example, so why bother engaging with people who live in an alternate reality where America has been in recession for eight years and it's Obama's fault?  But they believe those things for a reason, and it's not just Fox News brainwashing (though that certainly plays a role).  The smartest take I've heard on the election is that uneducated white voters started acting like a minority group voting bloc, instead of splitting their vote the way they often do.  And if they're feeling that way -- like an oppressed minority, like strangers in their own country -- then I want to know why.  This election happened because liberals have spent the last sixteen months talking to themselves about how awful conservatives are, when we could have been talking to conservatives and moderates, listening to their experiences, sharing ours, and trying to reach an understanding so the other side doesn't feel like they have to support a populist, racist, possibly fascist demagogue in order to be heard.  If we had done that and it had flipped just one Trump vote out of seventy-five, we would have won Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, and the election.

Last edited by satyreyes (11-10-2016 06:55:21 AM)

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#1049 | Back to Top11-10-2016 07:29:34 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Politics

satyreyes wrote:

we could have been talking to conservatives and moderates, listening to their experiences, sharing ours, and trying to reach an understanding so the other side doesn't feel like they have to support a populist, racist, possibly fascist demagogue in order to be heard.

[satyr, this sounds angry, but I'm totally not angry with you, so please don't feel the emotion, or anything, is directed at you.]

Maybe, but to be honest, considering when I left America, one of the last things to happen was to be followed slowly, by a truck full of good old boys in the middle of the night, throwing glass and paper trash at me and yelling racist and homophobic bs at me from my girlfriends' until some dudes unloading their gun rack stopped it and offered me a ride the rest of the way home, I don't want to talk to them.

That town is so pro-Trump, they trained the kids in the public schools, like my nieces and nephew, to repeat, rote, "We support Trump." The same schools that, when my eldest niece won a math and science prize as one of the top three students, in her age range in the district, told her dad that yeah, she won, but if she ever messes up or does anything, there's not going to be any tolerance "just because she's Indian." A town that trains its kids to call Jews, Indians, and whoever else they dislike, "protected classes," on account of, y'know, other places would shame them for kicking the shit out of them or setting their businesses on fire.

The nice Asian food store by a mixed-Asian couple, in town? They harassed them so bad they shut down and moved.

So, I don't want to talk to them. I don't want to take the time to see if they're one of the good eggs supporting Trump out of fear or confusion. It's like flying a rebel flag in the northern part of the country, or out in California. I don't care what the motive is, or how into state's rights you are. You flew your flag. I saw it. We're done.

We're not here, on this Earth, to enlighten or serve angry, selfish people while they step on us. Not the billionaires, not the poor ones.

I'm not sure that talking to Nazis works. Even, moderate Nazis.

And, seeing as how stories are flooding in of immediate abuses in the name of the new Trump regime, I can't see it as anything but that. It wasn't a poor white vote. Or a disenfranchised citizen vote. It was a bully vote, by people who are mad that they can't be on top and bully everybody else, but Trump told them that, yes they could. They bought it.

What "we" should have been doing, we as a country, is prosecuting Trump hard on every illegal thing that was awaiting trial. Don't delay trials so he can run. Trial now. "We" shouldn't be inviting him on talk shows to coddle him like he's a cartoon toddler. Put him on a show and grill the fucker. Meanwhile, talk to the people determined to vote for the shill who has never held an office or the guy who jumped off the Republican ticket because he couldn't get elected on it, and try to sway some more of them. Those people, I believe, could have actually made the difference. Bern or die folks who refused to vote because they have principles. Their friends, their lovers and neighbors needed to talk to them, maybe.

But, Trump has been being Trump for a long time. Anyone who could take all the hateful things he's said or promised, all the things he's going to stand trial for or testify in on behalf of his business, all the things he's admitted to doing... anyone who can take in all that and say that it's worth it because he'll build a wall or keep a cunt out of office... fuck'em. They were already promising that if he wasn't elected, there'd be a coup and a firing squad, anyway. That was literally part of their rhetoric across the board. If he couldn't get elected, there needed to be a coup, and they needed to shoot and hang people. Any adult who signed up with that, regardless of motivation, is not an ally I need or someone I want to try to talk sense to.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#1050 | Back to Top11-10-2016 08:35:27 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Politics

I'm angry, too, DD, and if I'm coming across as conciliatory it's because I'm trying to channel my anger into figuring out how to make sure this never happens again, and I think maybe conciliation is part of the answer.  You're right, of course, that a whole lot of the country is not New Orleans, and not all Trump voters are worth engaging with, and I'm saying neither that Trump caused all bigotry in America nor that anyone ought to try and have a reasoned conversation with someone yelling slurs or flying a Confederate flag.  But when all is said and done, Trump will have won at least 45% of the vote, and I don't believe that 45% of voters are Nazis.  (Even moderate Nazis.)  Polls before the election showed that most Trump voters were more energized to vote against Hillary than to vote for Trump.  That squares with my experience; the Trump voter I know best is my dad, and here are three things I know about my dad:

A) He is a social moderate who is pro-same-sex-marriage, pro-civil-equality, and pro-immigration on most issues;
B) He is a fiscal conservative who has no patience for building walls or pulling out of NAFTA;
C) He haaaaaaates Hillary Clinton.

So a lot of Trump voters were mostly voting against Hillary.  Is some of that because of misogyny?  You bet your ass.  But some of it is because some people felt she emblemized what they are most frustrated with about politics.  Hillary has held government office for a long time, and the email thing fed the idea that she thinks she's above the law.  Her public reticence about the email thing, the Clinton Foundation thing, the Benghazi thing, and so on fed the idea that she's a corrupt politician with everything to hide.  (Yes, you and I know that Benghazi is smoke without fire, and that Hillary, like Obama, had to be almost pathologically measured in her speech to avoid being tarred with stereotypes, but that's not something most people think about.)  And the "basket of deplorables" thing fed the idea that she's an elitist, that she'd rather dismiss people who disagree with her than listen to them or be their president.  I think all the "I feel your pain" stuff from her during debates sounded to Trump supporters like the same kind of empty pablum that "I want to fix our inner cities" sounded like to us when Trump said it.  It's not that Trump was the Messiah.  It's that these voters behaved like an oppressed minority, and Hillary represented the oppressor.

That's one reason I don't jump from "this person voted for Trump" to "this person is a bigot" or "this is an angry, selfish person who wants to step on everyone else."  I'm more likely to jump to "in this person's own head, they chose the bigot over the crook."  They may be characterizing Hillary inaccurately and I disagree with the choice they made, but I can understand why someone -- especially someone with unchecked privilege -- would choose the bigot over the crook.  And that's what I mean when I talk about dialogue.  To feel that other actual people have legitimate, relatable grievances can change minds, just as it did when same-sex marriage became so popular so fast.

Again, just my two cents, and I'm not gainsaying anyone whose reaction to all this is that the other half of America isn't worth talking to.  It's not anyone's obligation to open themselves up to potential abuse, and everyone has the prerogative to get political only with like-minded people.  It's just that I actually believe that love trumps hate.  And I don't know what the antidote to polarization is, but I don't think it's more polarization.

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