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#1 | Back to Top11-29-2013 09:47:26 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8798
Website

QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

Forgive me. I'm in a union. emot-rolleyes But I've seen a few of you mention instances where you've been required to do overtime at your jobs.

Now legally, my employer can do this to me, but only if a tornado hits Edmonton and I'm needed to provide emergency care. I asked around and only nurses who have been working over like, a decade, can recall a time when they had to do mandatory OT.

So I'm curious. What do you do, and why are you required to do OT? Is it OT the minute you're staying late regardless of your part time/full time status? What is OT pay? 1.5X? 2X?

The idea that someone can force you to stay somewhere outside of the agreement you've made to work certain hours kind of astounds me, and it's just another one of those things that makes work in this day and age embarrassingly unfair for the employee. I'm pretty well acquainted with a lot of the ridiculous things employers get away with, but this one I've never heard the details of. So...please explain someone? It's an opportunity to bitch. emot-smile


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#2 | Back to Top11-30-2013 10:41:59 AM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
Website

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

I work for an alarm company, and the only times I've seen mandatory overtime hit were for particular bad weather conditions where if enough people did not show up for work then we would be unable to notify the authorities in an acceptable timeframe.

So...

Things like the Hurricane Katrina / Rita double whammy a few years back.

A particular bad set of storms in the year 2000 that were not hurricanes, but we were still shorthanded.

Also, in winter when the roads around the dispatch center are unsafe, the company has occasionally offered to pay a hotel bill at one of the buildings within walking distance (we have 2-3 hotels near our complex) in exchange for a few hours of overtime.


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#3 | Back to Top11-30-2013 06:52:12 PM

Raven Nightshade
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From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2925

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

I work in an industry that's more...service-oriented, and mandatory overtime really only comes into play when there are more customers than expected or when we're extremely (and I mean extremely) short-handed. In fact, the company I work is run by a bunch of cheap fucks, so they actually discourage overtime whenever possible. Whenever we do have to do overtime, though, we get paid time-and-a-half (1.5x our normal hourly rate), and they don't like that.


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#4 | Back to Top12-01-2013 05:40:11 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

My brother works in a salaried administrative job.  His boss can call him in for more than forty hours a week anytime, and not only does he have to work it, he doesn't get paid time and a half.  I believe they still have to pay him at a rate proportional to his salary, so he's not putting in uncompensated work, but don't quote me on that.  His employer has not abused this privilege, but some do.

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#5 | Back to Top12-02-2013 02:54:39 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8798
Website

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

satyreyes wrote:

My brother works in a salaried administrative job.  His boss can call him in for more than forty hours a week anytime, and not only does he have to work it, he doesn't get paid time and a half.  I believe they still have to pay him at a rate proportional to his salary, so he's not putting in uncompensated work, but don't quote me on that.  His employer has not abused this privilege, but some do.

I think a salary situation is different; the implicit agreement in the difference between salary and hourly pay is that in the first you're hired to be responsible for the completion of a task, and the amount of time that takes is expected to vary. Wage pay is pay for your time, and the expectation is not that the task will be completed or managed entirely by you, generally.

Ash-I think your situation would be similar to mine, there. It sounds like mandatory OT is used to continue to provide a service that public safety hinges on. They are willing at great cost to them, staff you. On the flipside, Raven, if you're in a a service industry, I would think mandatory OT is used to continue potential sales? At what point would you say they're willing to pay time and a half (that's bullshit, it should be double) to account for the loss of efficiency, sanity, or safety of the staff already there?

I've been thinking a lot about employment and the nature of things like overtime, contracts, and general wellbeing of the employee. Even in a strong union, there's an outlook among nurses and the employers of them up here that's true everywhere else I've seen; staffing, overtime, etc, are done for the safety of the patients. The safety and wellbeing of the nurses is less relevant. Even our union argues based on client-safety, knowing nurse-safety just isn't as sexy an argument to make.

It seems to me that most of the industries still unionized are ones where safety is a major concern; either for the people you protect, or yourself. I think, for fairly obvious reasons. So for people in those lines of work, adequate staffing is a huge concern. Of course even in a union I still feel like half the time, we're way understaffed, but that's how it will always be. Is it similar for you guys? Like, Raven, when you're short, is it a risk to you personally, or is it more likely that tasks just won't get done/service will suffer/you'll stay late? Is it safety that pushes them into willingness for OT?


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#6 | Back to Top12-03-2013 08:04:06 AM

Mylene
Fighting Evil By Moonlight
From: Next to Paradox
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 3704

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

My brother works maintenance in a non-union factory and is regularly required to work OT. Sometimes he volunteers for it, other times it's mandatory. Since he's maintenance, it comes with the territory a bit, plus he's at the lower end of the seniority pole. In his case, between required and volunteered, he generally works at least 60 hours per week. For regular OT he's paid 1.5x. If the OT is during a holiday, I believe he makes 3x. Generally his OT is taking on weekend shifts and also taking on extra hours per shift (from 8 hours to 12 hours, etc.)

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#7 | Back to Top12-09-2013 06:55:49 PM

jmie5
Precious One
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 298

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

I don't know how OT works for salaried positions; I should ask my brother, as he works at the same company.

I work in auto claims.  If there's a disaster or bad weather or during holiday times, the amount of claims and the follow-through (calling people back for their versions, following up with the body shop, hospital, tasks to go out and investigate the scene build up.)  This creates the need for mandatory OT / mandatory overtime.  And I do mean need.

The majority of the positions I know of pay time-and-a-half, meaning 1.5 x your salary per hour.  I'm sure there are positions that pay different rate, but I've never known of one.  I was aware that my company was in "mandatory OT" status when I was hired, and this didn't go away until at least six months in; however, this was only temporary; we have to stay on top.

How it works for me is that according to how backed-up we are, the company gives a certain amount of "tasks" for us to do.  And however long it takes us to complete these tasks is how long our OT is per week.  You know what these will be the Thursday prior to allow some planning time.  If you take 3 days or more vacation per week, then the amount is pro-rated, typically cut in half.

Sometimes, we go into voluntary OT, where there's "suggested" tasks of what people can do to help us stay in this mode. 

Some people at my company see this as a blessing (you make decent money, and if they do so much OT, they can keep their current lifestyle with the extra money,) and some see it as a curse where they think only the newer/suckier (sorry, I was one of them) employees should do it.  But yeah, if that happened, we'd never get ahead.

At my old job, I used to work all the OT I could because my former company did NOT allow overtime willingly.  This job, now that it's required, I wish I didn't have to, but I'm grateful I have the option.  A lot of jobs won't allow for OT, again, and to some, mandatory OT or just the option of OT can be a blessing because it's easier than a part time job, if you can get enough (you don't need to commute/spend gas money, the pay per hour is far ahead what you'd get otherwise, etc.)

By comparison, I really don't know how unions work.  I know teachers have them, and I know Bon Jovi's "Living On a Prayer," but that's the extent of my expertise. XD

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#8 | Back to Top12-11-2013 12:26:14 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8798
Website

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

Unions work by scaring the companies into sort of treating employees well. Alberta just made it illegal, however, for my union to threaten to strike. Which kind of takes the fangs out of them, so I may be screwed in a year or two. emot-frown They'll take my 2X overtime from my cold dead hands.

jmie5 - It sounds like your position would almost benefit the company to make salaried? If their to do list frequently results in OT, they're not making the best use of resources going by hourly wage. Not that I'd be complaining, mind you. emot-biggrin I know the feeling. Overtime for nurses is like a god given right. We say we want better staffing so that it wouldn't be necessary to constantly be handing out overtime, but we don't really mean it. Because then, we wouldn't get overtime. (Slightly better staffing would be nice, though...)

So far it sounds like most of you get told when the option to do OT is available, or when you're required to do it. jmie5, it sounds like you could say 'Hey this took me a long time so you have to pay me OT.' Is this true? Do people come down on you for it a lot? If I'm unable to take breaks/stay late, in theory I can file for the OT. (In reality we often let a missed break slide, or most do. Fuck that.) And while we sometimes get hounded about 'time management' they ultimately cannot refuse to pay it without a union poopstorm. Without that protection, I would imagine nurses would get badgered or guilted out of claiming it (and often they are anyway.) Is that also a problem?

I think I'm trying to better understand employment culture in America, and sort of in Canada. I contrast this sort of mandatory OT to things like mandatory month long vacations, which are A Thing in lots of places in Europe. We're greedy money hungry bastards, for sure, but is that the only reason we're so eager to work more?


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#9 | Back to Top12-11-2013 02:14:33 PM

Nova
Phoenix Down
Registered: 05-02-2012
Posts: 535

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

Giovanna wrote:

I think I'm trying to better understand employment culture in America, and sort of in Canada. I contrast this sort of mandatory OT to things like mandatory month long vacations, which are A Thing in lots of places in Europe. We're greedy money hungry bastards, for sure, but is that the only reason we're so eager to work more?

In the US, it's because of the perfect storm of the Protestant Work Ethic, the looming inverted totalitarianism, and the Cold War-relic irrational fear of Socialism/Communism.


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#10 | Back to Top12-11-2013 11:04:23 PM

jmie5
Precious One
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 298

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

Giovanna wrote:

jmie5 - It sounds like your position would almost benefit the company to make salaried? If their to do list frequently results in OT, they're not making the best use of resources going by hourly wage.  . . . it sounds like you could say 'Hey this took me a long time so you have to pay me OT.' Is this true? Do people come down on you for it a lot?

You'd think so, Gio, but not quite.  The company I work for is trying to make sure that we handle auto claims the same way in upcoming years, but for now every section handles claims differently.  How my section handles it is that if you get a claim, you process it as far as you can take it without needing some kind of follow-through (like a call back from another driver for their version or body shop.)  Whatever's left to do, you set a "task" to ping at another time.  And whomever gets the task, they do it, if they're able.  So, it's joint-ownership.  The way things are now, if people were salaried and didn't get paid that extra time at work, they'd flip.

We're trying to move to individual ownership, where you have so many claims and whatever's left to do, you do it.  This might work better. 

But in my experience, it's the higher-up jobs that have a salaried wage.  In the U.S. it's much cheaper for companies not to hire fulltime employees, to not have to pay benefits, and if you are fulltime, to not offer overtime.

At my old job, when they weren't offering OT and I stayed late, they'd question me why, needing documentation of what I did, etc.  This job, I've never been questioned, I've just been told that if I don't know how to do a task, OT is not the time to figure it out.  I used to pull the first tasks in queque, no matter how difficult, because they were first, but then I learned the company didn't want to pay me 1.5 x the wage to learn (and I wanted to go home already,) so I've been more selective.  In theory, yeah, I could say that this is why I took so long, but I don't want to anymore. emot-biggrin

The thing is about overtime though, most companies (in my experience) will not pay you for overtime if you are not there for 40 physical hours.  Meaning, let's say you have vacation time or sick leave and you miss a day due to one of those reasons.  Your leave will pay you for the day.  But because you did not physically work 40 hours, you don't get paid the overtime rate unless you make up the missed time.  For example, off one day, I worked 32 hours.  Sick day paid the 8.  Any time I work over won't be OT until I get to 40.  Drives me crazy.

Thank you for your insight on how unions work, though, I really appreciate it!

And forgive me if my answers according to my experience suck.  x_x  I am late coming home due (haha, you guessed it, mandatory OT!)  I don't work Mondays, we had a snow day, Tuesday (hooray!) and I have commitment Thursday, so I'm trying to get it done today and the other part Friday. ;)

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#11 | Back to Top12-15-2013 12:58:13 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8798
Website

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

Ahh, so salaries would not work in the current scheme, because salary is kind of based on a personal sense of responsibility to the tasks to accomplish. If you're not responsible for the individual case your motive to stay late is gone unless you get OT.

Hmm. Union. Overtime for full time staff is any time I didn't previously agree to based on my schedule. So if I work Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and I call in sick Monday, then do overtime on Thursday, they still have to pay the Thursday at 2X pay, even if I still only end up working the same number of hours overall. It's not about how much you work, but how much your work infringes on the rest of your life; it's far more inconvenient to show up at work out of nowhere based on a call at 6am than it is to have known you work a shift weeks ago. You're paid for that inconvenience.

Similarly, they can't change my schedule at the last minute without paying overtime. An example. A couple weeks ago I agreed to a 3pm-11pm 8 hour evening shift on a Sunday. I was scheduled for a 12 hour (7a-7p) day shift on Monday. The 8 hour night shift was dangerously, drastically short. I agreed to work this shift as well, if they would cancel my 12 hour day shift. (Doing a 16 hour shift and then letting it stretch into another 12 is actually illegal.) They agreed to this. What they did was instead of the 12 hour day, my schedule was adjusted to an 8 hour night. But, because it was a schedule change for a part time/full time staff member with less than 2 weeks notice, they had to pay me double time. Even though I agreed simply to exchange one shift for another.

In that case it worked awesome for me. But things like that exist to keep employers from pulling that crap on their own, all the time. Which they would, if it wasn't so bloody expensive.

The overtime scheme you have based on needing to hit 40 hours is pretty universal to a non-union position. And not all union positions have a set up as sweet as mine. Nurses, when they actually bother to unionize, tend to have powerful unions because pissing us off enough to make us strike has consequences on a scale far worse than, say, Walmart employees not showing up. Unions are kind of a game of chicken. Two sides have to agree on terms that are almost never mutually agreeable based on the threat that they may stop playing ball entirely. The whole point of the union is to represent the side of the table more likely to take it in the ass if it doesn't defend itself.

A lot of what makes unions work, however, is the assumption of specialty. A nurse union in powerful because, hey, where else can you get your nurses now, bitch? A union of Walmart employees is comparatively harder to negotiate from, because the threat of mutiny has less power if the labor is unskilled enough to be replaced with relative ease.

Your responses definitely don't suck! I hope this was more useful for union learnin' than 'UNIONZ KICK ASS' cool


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#12 | Back to Top12-29-2013 09:37:16 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8798
Website

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

Double post just to mention, that I am about to become the Union rep for my unit. Which means I'll be more intimately involved in negotiations and disputes and getting information around. So if there's interest, I can make a unions specific thread and answer questions. I really think it's something us younger Americans are missing a boat on, and I'm stoked that up in the frozen north I'm part of one.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#13 | Back to Top12-31-2013 02:54:55 AM

SexingTouga24/7/365
is on a BOAT!
Registered: 12-10-2006
Posts: 2267

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

You should do that and yeah, Unions are hot for workers, when done properly they force the company to treat all their workers better; as you said. Can they help you, if you ever need to sue your company? Good Luck, being a Union Rep, Gio!


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#14 | Back to Top12-31-2013 05:01:08 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

Giovanna wrote:

Double post just to mention, that I am about to become the Union rep for my unit.

That's awesome. Seriously.

The US has gotten progressively anti-union in the past fifteen or twenty years, and only experienced a small swell of acceptance before that (and another wave of anti before then), which is one reason I'm glad I'm not working there right now, especially in teaching (which has, for whatever reason, the most hated union of all, greedy fuckin teachers and shop stewards!).

Hearing that a good, sane person is anyone's rep makes me happy.


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#15 | Back to Top12-31-2013 10:59:32 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
Website

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

What, no one makes the Sicilian "I'm a Union Representative" joke?

Come on guys, you're losing your touch emot-tongue


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#16 | Back to Top12-31-2013 01:36:21 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8798
Website

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

Yasha wrote:

What, no one makes the Sicilian "I'm a Union Representative" joke?

Come on guys, you're losing your touch emot-tongue

I'm going to start wearing silk scrubs and use a gold lanyard for my ID. emot-biggrin

In their defense, I think that joke is better understood if you live in close contact with an Italian and have been dragged through Goodfellas. emot-wink

The union rep workshop is later in January. I'll do a write up then, and maybe a summary post first. emot-smile DD: Thanks for accusing me of being sane! I actually got recruited by the current union rep that wants to stop doing it (she doesn't get along with some of the chapter brass--unions are political at heart so that sort of thing happens), which is funny because before I left Glenrose, I was being groomed to be the chapter' VP after the current one retires. So apparently I have Union Material written all over me. It might have something to do with me being a very vocal advocate for things like overtime when short and claiming missed breaks. The thing about being a union rep is yes, you need to negotiate with both sides and try to come to amenable compromises for all involved, but because you're the union rep, and the only buffer day to day between staff, who want money and time off and not to have 6 patient assignments, and management, who are constantly bombarded with expectations to staff more 'efficiently' (cheaply) and are far and away the more powerful entity in those disputes, your job is to always side with your peers. That's something a lot of nurses don't understand because we're trained to settle disputes and see both sides. It really is kind of like the mafia, in that you have to always side with your family. You may lose the battle but if you go into it like 'Well I guess we could work short today if you guys really can't pay overtime.' you've already lost. And when you do lose, and you're short, you fill out a PRC (professional complaint basically). I watched the current union rep get overtime for the unit a couple days ago after the charge staunchly refused, simply by mentioning it was a PRC situation.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#17 | Back to Top12-31-2013 09:59:50 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: QUESTION. What is mandatory OT? No, seriously. I don't know.

Yasha wrote:

What, no one makes the Sicilian "I'm a Union Representative" joke?

Come on guys, you're losing your touch emot-tongue

I wouldn't risk it with Danny Greene. I'm not gonna risk it with Gio.

I know how (and when) to keep my mouth shut.


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