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#26 | Back to Top08-08-2013 12:45:56 AM

satyreyes
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Ashnod wrote:

Actually, I think it was BioWare actually listening to many people who said, "I want the option to refuse the Catalyst or use the Crucible, even if it means the Reapers win."

Yes, people wanted this. I even said as much at one point.

I think there's a case to be made for it from an in-universe perspective.  Shepard might really have that much faith in her assembled armies.  After all, her EMS console told her that the odds of beating the Reapers were about even!  And she has just seen that we can kill Reapers.  They are no stronger than a very old thresher maw, and Shepard can kill thresher maws on foot.  Maybe stepping back and letting the galaxy win or lose an honest fight is better than perpetrating genocide/slavery/eugenics for "the greater good."  Of course, knowing how it ends from our out-of-universe perspective, that case is harder to make.

Yasha wrote:

I wonder if this means there's something in common between disliking 2 and liking the ending of 3? That's how it seems to run in this thread.

It's true that I liked 2.  Not without reservations.  It bothered me from the very start that Shepard had no choice but to join the Illusive Man.  My Shepard hated Cerberus.  They were responsible for her unit's death on Akuze and for hideous experiments in resurrecting and controlling the rachni in ME1.  I wanted the option to commandeer the Normandy++ and go report everything to the Citadel and ask for help.  After the Citadel politely told her to go fuck herself, she could have grudgingly agreed to work with Cerberus because the galaxy was at stake, but this would have been the option of last resort.  But this is a nitpick.  And actually, I think I'm going to expand on why it's a nitpick, for contrast with how I feel about ME3's ending.

- It is necessary to the plot of ME2 that Shepard must join Cerberus.  Bioware does not have the resources to code an alternate version of ME2 where Shepard rejects Cerberus.  It would require too many changes to the plot of this game and the next game.  As Yasha said, "the writers have to be able to depend on certain things happening regardless of your choice to be able to write a cohesive story, especially one that will have a sequel."  The plot of ME2 is basically good, so it's appropriate for the writers to force Shepard's hand here. 

- Cerberus is not only a necessary plot vehicle, but also a necessary thematic vehicle.  Working for Cerberus deepens the shades of gray in which Shepard and her crew are painted.  It forces Shepard to embrace unethical means to attain ostensibly good ends, and allows the player to develop how Shepard feels about that.  The same theme will recur in many variations throughout ME2 and ME3, with the genophage being an obvious example.  Shepard's experience with the Illusive Man is thematically tied to her decision about the genophage and other means/ends decisions she has to make.

- The Illusive Man is awesome.  My Shepard hates Cerberus, but I love them, and I want to get my debriefing from the Illusive Man after each mission.  It's fulfilling and creates a wonderful, ominous tone.  So this is a conflict I actually want Shepard to lose.

- An optional scene where Shepard tries to get help from the Citadel would have been redundant with the event later in ME2 where she does the same thing.  The optional scene would be clunky and wouldn't much develop the plot in a way beyond what would have happened anyway; it would just be a developmentally expensive way to let Shepard act out against the Illusive Man.  Since the outcome is preordained, it is reasonable for Bioware to decide not to waste the player's time.

And that's why it's reasonable for Bioware to deny agency to Shepard or the player at the time of Shepard's recruitment by Cerberus.  But none of these reasons help explain the ending of ME3.  Decisions the player makes at the very end of the trilogy don't create crazily permuting possibilities the way decisions in the middle of the game do, so the developers can't plead overcomplication.  The end of the trilogy is not an appropriate moment to force the protagonist to use bad means to attain ostensibly good ends, because it's too late to develop Shepard's character any further, so the developers can't plead thematic necessity -- indeed, this is the moment when Shepard should be thinking about the lessons of the past to make a final, deeply personal decision about What Is Right.  Players (other than Gio emot-tongue) don't want Shepard to lose this conflict, so the developers can't say that they're screwing Shepard in order to entertain the player.  And the ending of the game is the very moment when the outcome no longer has to be preordained, when the decision tree is free of the constraint that it eventually has to collapse, so the developers can't say that they're just facilitating a necessary outcome.

Yasha wrote:

In the end, I think the difference between us is that you found the endings emotionally unsatisfying because you wanted Shep to win, where I considered the Reapers an unwinnable battle and was happy with the chance to compromise. Does that sound off-base? Have I read you wrong? I might be putting more importance on your 'red button kill the Reapers' comments than you meant.

Well, I wanted the galaxy to win, and my Shep was working on the galaxy's behalf.  That doesn't necessarily mean that Shep needed to survive.  (Actually, I prefer that she dies.)  But she has come a very long way to lose now, and Mass Effect has not established any theme to the effect that an individual's hard work on behalf of good can ultimately be in vain.  Frosty rightly pointed out earlier that we see Shepard and her crew survive suicide missions and overcome impossible odds -- often at a cost, yes, but a cost on the scale of the lives of a few thousand geth who were attacking you anyway, or the life of a valued ally who knew the risks he or she was taking, not a cost on the scale of galactic genocide/slavery/eugenics.  In that context, the ending trivializes the narrative, and does it for no thematic reason.  It's like the DM who lets the PCs claw their way to the dragon's lair by overcoming obstacle after obstacle, and then says "rocks fall, everyone dies."  A button that says KILL DRAGON would be better than that.  A straight-up fight (or negotiation, or riddling contest) would be even better.  The point is that the galaxy can't lose as long as Shep is working to save it.

If your Shep didn't come out of the three games feeling that diversity and even conflict were necessary parts of the healthy development of life in the galaxy, or if your Shep didn't come out of the three games feeling humbled about exercising terrible power over others "for the greater good," then synthesis or control or even destroy might indeed be an ending where the galaxy does win, at least as far as Shepard is concerned.  I think that that's the basic difference between us, not our desire for Shepard to win.  But there is ample text to support Shep making the opposite decision: we need conflict, we need diversity, and at any rate Shep has no right to impose her will on everyone.  In fact, I feel strongly that the games taken as a whole push you towards those conclusions, without forcing you to them.  And that's why I'm so confused that there is no good ending for that Shep's galaxy.

Last edited by satyreyes (08-08-2013 02:35:49 AM)

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#27 | Back to Top08-08-2013 01:10:10 AM

Ashnod
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

satyreyes wrote:

In fact, I feel strongly that the games taken as a whole push you towards those conclusions, without forcing you to them.  And that's why I'm so confused that there is no good ending for that Shep's galaxy.

That's because BioWare apparently believes that Synthesis has no negative consequences to it, and thus it is the intended "Good" ending to the series. Of the three main endings (not counting the breath scene), it is the hardest to obtain; the one that requires the Crucible make it to the Citadel as undamaged as possible.

I honestly don't think they were prepared for the backlash and outright revulsion against Synthesis that occurred.

Or, if they did, and they intended Synthesis to appear as repulsive as say, sacrificing the Geth in the Destroy ending, then I'm not sure why they felt giving the player three ultimately ugly ways to end the conflict was the proper way to go.

For the record, I am pro-Destroy, because I only feel like I am sacrificing EDI. I don't feel like I'm sacrificing the Geth, which is a conversation for another time.


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#28 | Back to Top08-08-2013 01:44:41 AM

satyreyes
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Ashnod wrote:

satyreyes wrote:

In fact, I feel strongly that the games taken as a whole push you towards those conclusions, without forcing you to them.  And that's why I'm so confused that there is no good ending for that Shep's galaxy.

That's because BioWare apparently believes that Synthesis has no negative consequences to it, and thus it is the intended "Good" ending to the series. Of the three main endings (not counting the breath scene), it is the hardest to obtain; the one that requires the Crucible make it to the Citadel as undamaged as possible.

I agree.  I guess on reflection I was being a bit facetious in saying I was confused, because actually I think that's exactly what's going on.  I think the possibility that Synthesis was intended to be a repulsive ending is extremely remote because of the way it's presented -- because that's the choice you have to work the hardest to unlock, and hard work in Mass Effect results in success.  Which is why I said earlier that I don't understand how the same writers who created this wonderful story, which from my Shep's perspective is about people and starship crews and whole civilizations suffering when they cannot tolerate diversity and growing when they embrace it, and about the hubris of one person or group thinking they have the right to play god, could then turn around and give us these three choices in the belief that at least one of them was a good ending.  That's what I'm confused about.

Last edited by satyreyes (08-08-2013 01:47:11 AM)

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#29 | Back to Top08-08-2013 03:34:31 AM

Giovanna
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Hmm. Satyr, you've mentioned repeatedly the theme of value in diversity, and unless I read you wrong, a criticism you have of the endings, in particular the synthesis one, is that the diversity of the galaxy is diminished by it, when that was the strength this cycle had over previous ones. I never took synthesis to suggest a homogenization of the races. There is an exchange of the building blocks of organics and synthetics on a fundamental scale. (Something the Reapers have previously accomplished better than any other, and are so particularly qualified to offer.) That doesn't mean the krogan aren't going to not start breeding like rabbits and potentially overrun the galaxy. It doesn't mean the asari are going to suddenly cease to be very gently and politely possessive of their intellectual dominance. It doesn't mean humans are going to have a strange love/hate relationship with the biotics in their midst. It doesn't mean that diversity has vanished--if anything, the sharing of this 'DNA' creates more potential diversity, by allowing two previously completely unrelated forms of life that could only reproduce within their type to now intermix. That doesn't mean they're going to keep getting along. It does mean that the basic disagreement the synthetics and organics have has become if not moot, not worth getting into, because if they're combined, no criticism can be made of the other without it also applying to them. Life will always find something else to disagree about though. Shepard's actions only mean anything for the one disagreement that, according to the Reapers, would destroy organic life utterly.

The ending sequence is a bit romantic because you see the Reapers building and helping, but I don't really think the laws of the universe have changed as dramatically as it seems like they have. The potential for life is elevated. That is all. The variety within it is clearly not destroyed from either side. Geth still appear to be Geth. Turians still appear to be Turians.

The synthesis ending resolves the conflict that the Reapers have brought to the galaxy. That's all. It's, to me anyway, the least ugly of three ugly options. But I never took issue with the options being ugly--it didn't make sense to me that this epic horrifying course of events would have an ending that wasn't ugly in some way.

As for ME2, the plot was fine overall, and Cerberus was a fascinating group to be forced to associate with. (The game forcing you to get in bed with unpleasant forces seemed to me to be preparing us for an ending where we have to work with the Reapers.) My problem with ME2 was for all the world, plot, and dialogue, it's basically a game of Pokemon. Gotta catch as many party members as possible. That's essentially the point and plot of the game, and because I was inundated with characters to recruit, I feel like there was a serious lack of development or involvement in the cast with itself. 'Oh btw I totally turned Omega upside down but whatever can I take Mordin and Garrus now?' It felt watered down, each character's development segregated from everyone else's. And it's criminal to have such a large cast of PCs and still limit you to two wherever you go. Dragon Age had a huge cast, but gave you three to take, and had tons of flavor dialogue as you did so, so that you felt like you were actually a team, instead of it being Shepard and Pokeballs she keeps in different rooms of her ship.

Oh, and ultimately, all the events that transpire because of the decisions you make have little bearing on the outcome of the end of the game. (Where have I heard this before?) You're a party member over or under, the final dungeon is easier or harder, people die or don't. In the end, it doesn't matter what you did up to the point where you pound through the relay, your options are the same: destroy the base or don't, tell Cerberus to suck your dick or don't. I'm not sure why this seems so obvious to me, but people have this complaint about ME3 and not ME2. Both games pull the same trick, which is why I wasn't as bothered the second time it happened.


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#30 | Back to Top08-12-2013 09:53:26 PM

Ashnod
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Okay. Head is clear, relatively speaking, and I'm ready to tackle my pro-Destroy argument. I'm gonna preface this by saying this is my interpretation of the events of the game.

I am fine with Destroy, relatively speaking, even though my main Shepard is pro-synthetic.

It is the final moments of Battle for Rannoch.

The Reaper Destroyer had been brought down. The Geth were finally free of Reaper influence. And then Legion approaches me and demands that I allow it to upload its appropriated Reaper code to the rest of the Geth.

I'm suddenly put in a very, very awkward position. Either I allow the Geth to strengthen themselves with Reaper technology, or I will lose all Geth military aid.

This is not a choice I would have permitted any other species to make. If the Turians came to me and said "We're going to augment our entire military like Cerberus has, and we want you to aid us in doing so," I would have said no. Same for the Asari, Salarians, Krogan, Hanar, etc. As it is, the fact that Cerberus is doing it frightens me.

There is no guarantee Legion can give to me that will make me trust with 100% certainty that this supposed code will only upgrade the Geth and will not allow the Reapers to suddenly take control of them. Indoctrination and slow corruption is tricky thing with Reaper technology, and while the process of Indoctrination seems to be easier to accomplish with organics there is no guarantee it cannot happen with a synthetic intelligence. 

In many ways, this decision is being forced upon me at gunpoint. It has made the decision that this is what is best for the Geth, its runtimes somehow reaching consensus when it could not make a similar, perhaps easier decision several months earlier when it abdicated all responsibility of destroying or re-writing the Heretics to me. Perhaps its nascent personality had already formed, and it no longer needed consensus. Perhaps it was already under Reaper control, and the decision was made for it.

It doesn't matter.

This is not the situation I wanted. I wanted to negotiate and deal with the Geth that were part of a distributed intelligence. I wanted to make peace and ally with the Geth as Legion described them months earlier. Whatever they will become when this upload occurs, they will not be that species any longer. The mechanics of this are poorly defined by Legion as it is. "Every Geth unit will become a true intelligence." What exactly does that mean? Every individual, primitive runtime? Every mobile platform? What about Geth still located in servers? How many of them does it take with Reaper code to become an individual rather than a collective? There are more runtimes in a Geth Prime then in a Geth Trooper...is one inherently equal to the others?

None of this is known, but I either have to allow the upload, completely lose the Geth, or somehow talk down the Quarians who are going to absolutely shit themselves if they find out Legion is doing.

In the end, rather than lose the Geth, I allow the upload. I manage to talk down the Quarians. A tentative peace is established. I have my fleets for the war.

Jump ahead to the decision to shoot the frakking tube.

There's no way in this universe I'm picking Synthesis. Aside from the moral implications of forcing the transformation upon the entire galaxy, which is terribly repugnant to begin regardless of any potential benefits, it's what the leader of the enemy wants me to do. If I pick it, the Reapers essentially win. They get exactly what they want, what they have always wanted, and in some twisted fashion my acquiescence to that request is in some way a tacit approval of everything they have done to get to this point.

No. No. No. No.

They don't get to live. They don't get to walk away justified in their actions. They don't get to have wiped out countless cycles, and half of my galaxy already, only to get off without consequence because I gave them what they always wanted.

Control was never on the table. This is the teleportation argument. The Catalyst might say that my intelligence will be uploaded, but I'm more willing to bet that it's simply going to be copied or mimicked. I'm going to die and something based on me is going to take command of the Reaper forces. That's too big a gamble. There's always the chance that the new Shepard intelligence will be functionally identical to me and make the choices I would have made, but I can't guarantee that because I'll be dead and a fricking synthetic clone will be in my place.

No.

Which leaves us with the Destroy. The fundamental problem of getting rid of the Reapers, the thing I've been trying to do for the past three years, is right there. If the Crucible is going to destroy Reaper code and that unfortunately takes the Geth with it...well...they made their choice on Rannoch to become part Reaper. I'm not going to feel guilty about this unforeseen consequence. Had they remained a distributed intelligence, each individual Geth a simple runtime that only mimicks sentience while in proximity to several hundred other runtimes, they would have survived this by either being not a true intelligence or by not having Reaper code.

Either way...do I sacrifice the Reaperized Geth to completely eliminate the Reapers from the galaxy? Not even a question. I fully admit, had I the option of solving the Rannoch problem with the Geth remaining a distributed intelligence, I would have a more difficult time choosing Destroy.

But that's not how it played out.

The only innocent in this, unfortunately, is EDI, who was built with Reaper technology through no decision or fault of her own. And honestly....I lost Kaidan on Virmire. I lost Mordin on Tuchanka. If I told EDI that using the Crucible will stop the Reapers but would probably end with her death, I think she would understand. I'm not saying she'd be happy about it, but I think she'd understand.

That's from the point of view of my main Shepard.

My secondary Shepard is a take on Chell if the events of Portal 2 left her now in the time of Mass Effect after leaving Aperture. Given her experience with AI, she never wanted EDI on the Normandy. She didn't have a choice in that matter. She never turned on Legion after the derelict Reaper mission. She never learned about the True Geth vs. the Heretic Geth. Given the choice of letting the Geth VI thing on Rannoch upload Reaper code or destroy the Geth, she didn't hestitate to destroy the Geth.

When it came time to shoot the tube, she couldn't shoot it fast enough.


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#31 | Back to Top08-12-2013 11:04:36 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Ashnod wrote:

The only innocent in this, unfortunately, is EDI, who was built with Reaper technology through no decision or fault of her own. . . .

Ashnod wrote:

The Reaper Destroyer had been brought down. The Geth were finally free of Reaper influence. And then Legion approaches me and demands that I allow it to upload its appropriated Reaper code to the rest of the Geth.

There are a lot of geth, though.  Legion is different from the rest of the geth, and seems to be acting as an independent agent on Rannoch -- it's his runtimes that are getting dissolved, and he's making the decision as an individual, isn't he?  Is it any fairer to hold all the geth accountable for what Legion did than it is to hold EDI accountable for what Cerberus did?

As a fallback argument, getting the Reaper tech changes the nature of the geth on a fundamental level.  Even if you think all the geth are somehow culpable for uploading the Reaper AI on Rannoch, the geth that exist now are different in kind from the geth that existed when that decision was made.  There may be an organic bias towards saying "their platforms are the same, so these are the same people."  But of course geth platforms have nothing to do with their consciousness.

The ethics of Legion's decision are, of course, a discussion topic unto themselves. emot-smile

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#32 | Back to Top08-12-2013 11:19:50 PM

Ashnod
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

satyreyes wrote:

There are a lot of geth, though.  Legion is different from the rest of the geth, and seems to be acting as an independent agent on Rannoch -- it's his runtimes that are getting dissolved, and he's making the decision as an individual, isn't he?  Is it any fairer to hold all the geth accountable for what Legion did than it is to hold EDI accountable for what Cerberus did?

It's a good question, and one that certainly bears examining.

I don't think I'm holding the Geth accountable for Legion's actions so much as Legion's actions have the unintended side-effect of causing the Geth's downfall. I don't think I, nor the rest of the galaxy, should be forced to compromise on the prospect of eliminating the Reapers because a single Geth platform made the decision to transform its people using the same technology we are trying to destroy. At the same, I don't think the thought that every Reaper-upgraded human Cerberus operative could die from the Crucible would prevent me from picking Destroy either, despite the fact that many if not most of them were implanted against their will.


Since you mentioned it, it's important to bring up the point that Legion didn't realize its runtimes would be dissolved when he was holding Geth support back with the upload demand - this was unanticipated and Legion seemed surprised that this outcome was necessary. This slightly changes the sacrificial nature of its decision and the eventual transformation of the Geth.

Overall, however, I strongly suspect Legion didn't make this decision in a vacuum. Should you complete the Geth server mission, there are at least the Geth inhabiting the prime mobile platforms it could have conversed with. If you didn't complete that, there still is the small amount of time between the death of the Reaper Destroyer and the demand itself where Legion could have been communicating with the Geth fleet as they began coming back online. Legion mentioned their communication occurs near instantaneously, so it's not unreasonable to assume this could have occurred.

Last edited by Ashnod (08-12-2013 11:29:47 PM)


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#33 | Back to Top08-12-2013 11:55:23 PM

satyreyes
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From: New Orleans, Louisiana
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Ashnod wrote:

It's important to bring up the point that Legion didn't realize its runtimes would be dissolved when he was holding Geth support back with the upload demand - this was unanticipated and Legion seemed surprise that this outcome was necessary.

If only the geth had had late-twentieth-century torrenting technology.

Ashnod wrote:

I don't think I'm holding the Geth accountable for Legion's actions so much as Legion's actions have the unintended side-effect of causing the Geth's downfall. I don't think I, nor the rest of the galaxy, should be forced to compromise on the prospect of eliminating the Reapers because a single Geth platform made the decision to transform its people using the same technology we are trying to destroy. At the same, I don't think the thought that every Reaper-upgraded human Cerberus operative could die from the Crucible would prevent me from picking Destroy either, despite the fact that many if not most of them were implanted against their will.

Ah, okay emot-smile  This is a different argument from the one I thought you were making.  I thought you were holding the many accountable for the sins of the one, or in the sense of my second argument, holding the children accountable for the sins of the fathers.  But in the end, for you, it doesn't have anything to do with who should get blamed for Rannoch.  If destroying the geth is the price of exterminating the Reapers, then that's a price you're willing to pay, even if all of them but Legion are innocent.  Committing genocide against one sentient race is better than sitting back while the Reapers commit genocide against all sentient races.

It's no worse an argument than the argument for any other choice, I'll say that.

Ashnod wrote:

My secondary Shepard is a take on Chell if the events of Portal 2 left her now in the time of Mass Effect after leaving Aperture.

I just want to say that this is awesome and should be canon.

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#34 | Back to Top08-13-2013 12:04:23 AM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

satyreyes wrote:

Ah, okay emot-smile  This is a different argument from the one I thought you were making.  I thought you were holding the many accountable for the sins of the one, or in the sense of my second argument, holding the children accountable for the sins of the fathers.  But in the end, for you, it doesn't have anything to do with who should get blamed for Rannoch.  If destroying the geth is the price of exterminating the Reapers, then that's a price you're willing to pay, even if all of them but Legion are innocent.  Committing genocide against one sentient race is better than sitting back while the Reapers commit genocide against all sentient races.

It's no worse an argument than the argument for any other choice, I'll say that.

Hmmm....I think it's more a matter that if the Crucible is going to destroy Reaper tech and the Geth, through Legion, upgraded themselves through Reaper tech, their loss as a result of that upgrade isn't enough to dissuade me from using the Crucible. I'm not trying to punish them, but I feel no compulsion to spare the Reapers due to Legion's actions.

satyreyes wrote:

Ashnod wrote:

My secondary Shepard is a take on Chell if the events of Portal 2 left her now in the time of Mass Effect after leaving Aperture.

I just want to say that this is awesome and should be canon.

Thank you. emot-smile Now, if only she would be allowed to romance Miranda, her little life would be complete.


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#35 | Back to Top08-13-2013 12:07:04 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Ashnod wrote:

Hmmm....I think it's more a matter that if the Crucible is going to destroy Reaper tech and the Geth, through Legion, upgraded themselves through Reaper tech, their loss as a result of that upgrade isn't enough to dissuade me from using the Crucible. I'm not trying to punish them, but I feel no compulsion to spare the Reapers due to Legion's actions.

Just tryin' to understand -- if the quarians had originally built the geth using Reaper technology, not knowing what they were doing, instead of Legion uploading the Reaper tech knowing full well what it was doing, would that change the ethical calculus for you?  And if so, why?

Last edited by satyreyes (08-13-2013 12:07:47 AM)

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#36 | Back to Top08-13-2013 12:12:11 AM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

satyreyes wrote:

Ashnod wrote:

Hmmm....I think it's more a matter that if the Crucible is going to destroy Reaper tech and the Geth, through Legion, upgraded themselves through Reaper tech, their loss as a result of that upgrade isn't enough to dissuade me from using the Crucible. I'm not trying to punish them, but I feel no compulsion to spare the Reapers due to Legion's actions.

Just tryin' to understand -- if the quarians had originally built the geth using Reaper technology, not knowing what they were doing, instead of Legion uploading the Reaper tech knowing full well what it was doing, would that change the ethical calculus for you?  And if so, why?

It would in the same way that I consider EDI a separate case from the Geth. EDI can't help that Cerberus used Reaper tech any more than the Geth could, in your scenario, help that the Quarians did.

In ME3, though, they made the choice to align with the Reapers. I know that they felt it was necessary given the Quarians' imminent victory without Reaper intervention, but they nonetheless made the choice to forgo their "forge their own path" philosophy and accept the Reaper upgrades. It was also a member of their own species who made the decision to give those upgrades permanence, for better or for worse.

They did it to themselves.

EDIT: And now I'm making typos left and right, so it's time for bed.

Last edited by Ashnod (08-13-2013 12:13:01 AM)


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#37 | Back to Top08-13-2013 11:37:49 PM

Ashnod
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Played a wee bit of Mass Effect this week.

Fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun.

emot-dance


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#38 | Back to Top09-10-2013 11:59:18 PM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

While I continue to work on some of the Dragon Age / Mass Effect crossover banter, here's are a few fun questions for everyone. Please respond, if you'd like, with explanations for your answers. My answers reflect the choices of my primary Shepard, Veronica, who is an Infiltrator. Chell's choices are a bit different.

1: Who does your Shepard bring along to Ilos & The Citadel?

This one is rough for me. At this point, even on Insanity, I'm good enough to get through these missions regardless of the team I bring. So, naturally, I want to bring everyone.  Saying that, though...

A - Ashley Williams: Reasons: In-Character, Gameplay, Metagaming.
In-Character - In the first game, Ashley is really my FemShep's best friend. They bond early in the game with the revelation that they went to the same training camp and had the same instructor. They are also companion snipers (my FemShep is an Infiltrator and I always spec Ash to use Assault Rifles and Sniper Rifles), so I see them working very well together.
Gameplay - I never spec Ash with anything in Pistols or Shotguns until everything else is maxed. So by the time we go to Ilos, she has maxed Sniper Rifles, Assault Rifles, Combat Armor, Fitness, Assault Training, and First Aid. Combining her with either Predator HX or Colossus X Heavy Armor with Medical Exoskeleton X and Energized Plating X, and she rarely, if ever goes down. She is the tank the team is built around.
Metagaming - There's a line in a conversation with Joker right after Horizon where he states that Ashley was on the front lines with Shepard taking down Geth on the Citadel. It always feels awkward in ME2 when I get to that point if Ashley wasn't with me during the final fight in ME1.

B - Liara T'Soni: Reasons: In-Character, Gameplay
In-Character - Ilos is a Prothean world and Liara is my Prothean expert. The Cipher is still fresh and Shepard can't interpret everything on her own. Aside from that, since my FemShep is an Infiltrator and can handle much of the tech combat, I could use a biotic.
Gameplay - Things change for Liara near the endgame. If you have maxed out her Singularity and given her a proper amp, like the Savant X, she is perhaps the most useful squadmate on the team. She can neutralize the entire or nearly the entire field of battle, allowing Shepard and Ashley to take easy shots at the opposition. Given the near zero-g environment on the Citadel near the end of the game, if she uses either Lift or Singularity, it can mean an instant kill in several locations.

C - Honorable Mention - Tali'Zorah
I would probably bring Tali along more often if my Shepard was not an Infiltrator and capable of handling most of the tech duties. Tali's wide range of tech abilities normally make her very useful against the geth, and if I metagame Shepard's speech in Tali's ME2 Loyalty Mission, it helps to have her actually on the Citadel with me for the end. She's also unfortunately squishy, even with Colossus X armor and level X mods.


2: Who does your Shepard bring along at the end of the Suicide Mission?

A - Miranda Lawson: Reasons: In-Character, Gameplay, Metagaming.
In-Character - Like Ashley in ME, Miranda is my FemShep's bestie in ME2. They don't get along at first, but as the mission progresses, things change. She's also very capable at dealing with Barriers and Armor, which the Collectors have in spades.
Gameplay - Miranda is the single most useful character in all of ME2. She can take down Shields, Barriers, and Armor, and her Level 4 class ability allows her to buff the rest of the team.
Metagaming - The final conversation during the Suicide Mission is not the same if Miranda is absent. There is key character development for her that is otherwise missed if she is not brought along.

B - Samara: Reasons: In-Character, Gameplay
In-Character - Miranda may be Shepard's bestie, but Samara is her most trusted and capable ally not named Garrus. But Garrus must lead everyone back at the rear guard, and I need someone a bit more robust than him. With Reave, Samara has proven to be quite formidable. More to the point, I assign everyone a task during the Suicide Mission, and Jack has already taken the major biotic role. Samara comes with me because that's the role she and Miranda play in the Suicide Mission.
Gameplay - Reave is awesome. With the Area Effect evolution of the power, Samara is capable of paralyzing several foes at once in addition to taking down Barriers and Armor. In a pinch, she can also use it to heal herself.

C - Honorable Mention - None.
If I'm playing Veronica, she's bringing Miranda and Samara. This really doesn't change unless I'm playing a different Shep.

3: Who does your Shepard bring along for the final push on Earth?

I agonize over this decision more than any other squad choice in the trilogy.

A - Ashley Williams: Reasons: In-Character, Gameplay.
In-Character - Again, companion snipers. Long time sisters-in-arms. Conflict since the first game aside, in combat, they still trust each other and work together well. This is also the mission for Earth, which means it is important for the human squadmembers to be a part of it. Tali goes to Rannoch. Liara goes to Thessia. Garrus is part of Palaven/Manae. EDI goes to Cronos Station. Ashley goes to Earth.
Gameplay - Grenades. I hold them back until I have to use them, but it's terribly nice to have another grenadier in the group.

B - Garrus Vakarian: Reasons: In-Character, Gameplay.
In-Character - He's been with me from the beginning now, and he's finally grown past all of that renegade cop and vigilante crap that's kept us at distance and has matured into a capable leader. He rounds out my all-sniper team, and he's worked with Ashley in the past.
Gameplay - Armor-Piercing Ammo. Nearly everything in the final push has armor. He's also nowhere near as fragile as he is in ME and ME2.

C - Honorable Mention - James Vega
He comes along for largely the same reason Ashley does. It is important for him to take part in the Earth mission, is very tough to drop, and has grenades.

Last edited by Ashnod (09-11-2013 12:05:06 AM)


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#39 | Back to Top11-15-2013 01:15:58 PM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy



If you haven't seen this, you need to.


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#40 | Back to Top11-16-2013 12:18:46 PM

Nova
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Now I want a cookie, gudammit.


I have left this forum. If you wish to contact me, ask Ashnod or Satyreyes how I may be reached.

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#41 | Back to Top12-29-2013 08:34:47 AM

Snow
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From: under the dogstar sail
Registered: 09-30-2013
Posts: 643

Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

I have delayed playing ME3 for too long, the shitstorm kinda put me off.
I'm playing the last third right now, imported Shep from game one and all...and I honestly don't know why people hated it so much.
The atmosphere is perfect, measured and bittersweet. Combat is more shooter-y than in the previous games, but challenging and fun. The environments are gorgeous, the Asari monastery and the ruins of Tuchanka in particular.
I still like all the characters I liked before, Liara finally grew on me, and the ones I was most worried about not liking (namely Diana Allers and Vega) ended up fitting in quite well.
I already spoiled all the endings for myself on Youtube. It's pretty easy to condemn Bioware for not doing it right, but I think they did well with what they had. It's not easy to tie up all those strings and make everyone happy. Shep's death was kinda evident for a while now, anyway.

I still don't get Synthesis...It just seems wrong on so many levels.
Then again, my favorite, Control, is pretty wrong too, but I justify it emotionally rather than logically. If anyone can be Mama Reaper, it's Shepard. The Reapers have been such an integral part of who she was so far, and there's something poetic and nurturing with her finally being able to help everyone and stop all the killing.

And I like blue, so there...

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#42 | Back to Top12-29-2013 09:35:32 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

I actually went for the Synthesis ending. A lot of the gripes people seemed to have especially showed up when their Shep wouldn't have chosen any of the three. Mine would have gone for Synthesis right away, so the ending felt great for me.

I think everyone agrees the buildup to the ending is amazing. The opening made me cry like a little bitch, enough that even the music will choke me up now. I thought they towed an admirable line between HARDASS MOFO and maternal/paternal instinct with the dream sequences of the kid. It reminded me of how maternal instinct is done in Aliens. It's just the ultimate ending that, admittedly, wasn't what it could have been.

That said, these are not hard games to mod. I really would like to see fans put their money where their mouth and see if they could do any better. Like you said, there was a lot of content to move around and tie up. And apparently they had to dump a lot of the original ending because of leaks? I don't really know the story there.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
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#43 | Back to Top12-29-2013 10:21:33 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Mmm hmm, Gio describes my issue with ME3 quite nicely!  I mostly liked it a lot.  The body of the game might have had some narrative problems, which I'm certain Ashnod or others could describe much more thoroughly than I can, but I didn't feel like any of them ruined anything.  I loved the frame of Shepard-as-galactic-diplomat, and I loved how so many conflicts and themes from the first couple of games got revisited and tied up.  It was just the ending, and just the end of the ending.  I loved the Illusive Man, I loved Anderson, I could swallow Starchild, I loved that Shepard dies.  I was fine with everything except for the fate of the galaxy: I didn't understand, on a plot or thematic level, why Shepard has to choose (what my Shepard saw as) genocide, genocide, slavery, or genocide in order for the game to conclude.  It's not that I needed a happy ending, which is something that apparently people who don't like ME3's ending get accused of a lot.  We should only have been so lucky as to get an unhappy ending!  Instead, the writers send Shepard on this very long moral journey that specifically problematizes genocide and slavery only to face her with the inevitability of one or the other at the end -- and then they paint a damn happy face on whatever she chooses.  Those two elements -- facing Shepard with a no-win moral choice at the end, and making her choice out to be right and proper -- baffle and frustrate me.

As for putting one's money where one's mouth is, well, fair cop emot-biggrin

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#44 | Back to Top12-29-2013 11:41:35 PM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Giovanna wrote:

I actually went for the Synthesis ending. A lot of the gripes people seemed to have especially showed up when their Shep wouldn't have chosen any of the three. Mine would have gone for Synthesis right away, so the ending felt great for me.

I think everyone agrees the buildup to the ending is amazing. The opening made me cry like a little bitch, enough that even the music will choke me up now. I thought they towed an admirable line between HARDASS MOFO and maternal/paternal instinct with the dream sequences of the kid. It reminded me of how maternal instinct is done in Aliens. It's just the ultimate ending that, admittedly, wasn't what it could have been.

That said, these are not hard games to mod. I really would like to see fans put their money where their mouth and see if they could do any better. Like you said, there was a lot of content to move around and tie up. And apparently they had to dump a lot of the original ending because of leaks? I don't really know the story there.

I present you with MEHEM - Mass Effect Happy Ending Mod

A lot of people swear by it.

If you have a PC, of course. Us XB360 and PS3 players are shit out of luck.

Last edited by Ashnod (12-29-2013 11:41:59 PM)


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#45 | Back to Top12-30-2013 02:38:49 PM

Snow
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From: under the dogstar sail
Registered: 09-30-2013
Posts: 643

Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Giovanna wrote:

I actually went for the Synthesis ending. A lot of the gripes people seemed to have especially showed up when their Shep wouldn't have chosen any of the three. Mine would have gone for Synthesis right away, so the ending felt great for me.

I think everyone agrees the buildup to the ending is amazing. The opening made me cry like a little bitch, enough that even the music will choke me up now. I thought they towed an admirable line between HARDASS MOFO and maternal/paternal instinct with the dream sequences of the kid. It reminded me of how maternal instinct is done in Aliens. It's just the ultimate ending that, admittedly, wasn't what it could have been.

That said, these are not hard games to mod. I really would like to see fans put their money where their mouth and see if they could do any better. Like you said, there was a lot of content to move around and tie up. And apparently they had to dump a lot of the original ending because of leaks? I don't really know the story there.

Well, the reason I don't get Synthesis is not that it doesn't make sense. It does, in the same way all the others do - it can be justified and countered to make it seem both like DNA-rape and the next step of evolution, with both opinions being right and wrong at the same time. The reason is, like you said, that it doesn't make sense in context of my Shepard, in this particular playthrough.
Playing as the same person for as long as we with imported Sheps did, keeping consistency in character and all, naturally some of that mindset rubs off on us, and makes the decision anyone else made a little bit harder to understand- you didn't play their game, I'd dare say, and they didn't play yours.

While the end choices do seem to be pretty much the same for everyone, the journey that led up to them was not, and it is precisely that journey that formed your opinions and affected what you felt about the choices, and the decision you made. Ultimately, the ends are left just ambiguous enough that you can form your own picture of what happens after the end, that too being affected by the sum of your experiences throughout three games, and different for everyone- my Synthesis would not be the same as your Synthesis.

I was downright appalled by Control before EC came out. It was presented in a somewhat negative light, the IM being associated with it and all, and Destroy seemed like the morally correct choice for my Shepard. But after EC, I realized all four endings are equally messed up and beautiful.
My Shep has a huge maternal instinct and a lot of survivor guilt, so self-sacrifice wasn't a problem. As a mother of sorts, she'd hate to change her children (the Illusive Man was a jerk, but he did refuse to put that surveillance chip into her, he wanted her to be herself, even if it meant disobedience and/or failure ), or destroy some of them - she'd want to save them all, help them get back on their feet, and then leave them to grow further on their own, possibly picking up the Reapers and going off to explore other galaxies, or remaining with them as an eternal monument of past civilizations, a la Yui in End of Evangelion.
So yeah, I think they did a good thing with EC.

satyreyes wrote:

I was fine with everything except for the fate of the galaxy: I didn't understand, on a plot or thematic level, why Shepard has to choose (what my Shepard saw as) genocide, genocide, slavery, or genocide in order for the game to conclude.  It's not that I needed a happy ending, which is something that apparently people who don't like ME3's ending get accused of a lot.  We should only have been so lucky as to get an unhappy ending!  Instead, the writers send Shepard on this very long moral journey that specifically problematizes genocide and slavery only to face her with the inevitability of one or the other at the end -- and then they paint a damn happy face on whatever she chooses.  Those two elements -- facing Shepard with a no-win moral choice at the end, and making her choice out to be right and proper -- baffle and frustrate me.

Yup. While the choices given do make sense to some, they all seem horribly wrong and inexcusable to others, depending on what kind of a person you built your Shepard to be up to that point. The only way to avoid this I can think of is to have the game extensively tested by a lot of players, and analyzing their responses and opinions to create a more diverse set of choices. Still wouldn't please everybody, though, just more people.
But the game was ultra-hyped already and delaying it's release, even with a solid reason like that, would create backlash, I think. But it's what I sincerely hope they're doing with Dragon Age: Inquisition right now, and I support them fully with it.

(Long-winded posts because my emotions are a torrent right now, all thanks to this game. Right now I'm more invested in this series than I thought  possible or healthy emot-gonk )

Last edited by Snow (12-30-2013 02:51:27 PM)

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#46 | Back to Top12-30-2013 06:01:23 PM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Snow wrote:

I was downright appalled by Control before EC came out. It was presented in a somewhat negative light, the IM being associated with it and all, and Destroy seemed like the morally correct choice for my Shepard. But after EC, I realized all four endings are equally messed up and beautiful.
My Shep has a huge maternal instinct and a lot of survivor guilt, so self-sacrifice wasn't a problem. As a mother of sorts, she'd hate to change her children (the Illusive Man was a jerk, but he did refuse to put that surveillance chip into her, he wanted her to be herself, even if it meant disobedience and/or failure ), or destroy some of them - she'd want to save them all, help them get back on their feet, and then leave them to grow further on their own, possibly picking up the Reapers and going off to explore other galaxies, or remaining with them as an eternal monument of past civilizations, a la Yui in End of Evangelion.
So yeah, I think they did a good thing with EC.

Then you should replay the CONTROL ending with a Renegade Shepard instead of a Paragon Shepard.

EC Control actually has two endings depending on your Paragon and Renegade scores.

Control with a Renegade Shepard is very dark.

Someone who has traditionally shot first and asked questions later, rarely shown mercy, and was willing to stop a threat with the maximum amount of force at minimal provocation suddenly given complete control of the Reapers?

Yeah...that's going to work out well for the galaxy...


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#47 | Back to Top12-31-2013 12:29:03 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8798
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

I ran the Control ending as a Renegade. It's definitely dark, but it doesn't feel to me like a 'bad' ending. Shep is cold, but not selfish, and not without the best results in mind. Even as a Renegade I think Shep will be a good person to run the galaxy, if it must be run at all. (Which I kind of wonder if it maybe needs, but then...Renegade at heart emot-keke)

I'll definitely try the mod, but that it's called happy ending kind of...is a bad sign to me? I'll be the first to own up to huge flaws in the ending of ME, but one of the things they absolutely got right for me is that none of the endings are easy. The events of ME span three games of brutal reality, horrifying destruction, lives lost, changed, and just all in all BIG THINGS, and I guess a happy ending after all that misery would have felt cheap to me, like a poor result of the buildup of such excellently portrayed mayhem. I've seen and played dozens THE WORLD IS ENDING stories. ME managed to actually move me, though. Not just the characters, or their individual struggles, but I cared about the fate of the universe. Which is hard to do. And that investment almost feels like it would be cheapened if I got a shiny sparkly ice cream cone at the end. I made tough decisions. Saw awful things happen. It couldn't have been easy, pretty, and the status quo? That was so going to get fucked.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#48 | Back to Top12-31-2013 05:39:18 AM

Snow
Troublesome Insect
From: under the dogstar sail
Registered: 09-30-2013
Posts: 643

Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Ashnod wrote:

Then you should replay the CONTROL ending with a Renegade Shepard instead of a Paragon Shepard.

EC Control actually has two endings depending on your Paragon and Renegade scores.

Control with a Renegade Shepard is very dark.

Someone who has traditionally shot first and asked questions later, rarely shown mercy, and was willing to stop a threat with the maximum amount of force at minimal provocation suddenly given complete control of the Reapers?

Yeah...that's going to work out well for the galaxy...

I will definitely replay the game with Renegade when I find some spare time. Excuse my Paragon-centric opinions. It is, after all, how I've played this game for a while now (was some lousy Paragade in ME1), and since I'm still playing, it affects my way of thinking about the plot.

I get that the endings were dark, but if a person played a Renegade Shepard, with everything that entails, I don't think that darkness would surprise them so much. After all, RenShep's whole story is based on the grimdark-ness of the universe, survival of the fittest, hard decisions. I don't think such a character would be as horrified by the darker endings as a Paragon would. It's a person who quite possibly shot Mordin in the back because she considered it to be for the greater good. She would take it as a necessary evil.
But I'm being assumptious now.

Anyway, from what I've gathered, Renegade Shep is not really a psychopath. The positions she was in so far require a high level of mental stability, at least. And while she rarely showed mercy, the Reapers themselves never did, so that, at least, is an improvement. Them being 'ruled' by a creation with complex human experiences and thoughts, rather than a black-white seeing and outdated VI is also an improvement, in my book. Then again, I'll know for sure only when I play that myself.
What I've always liked about ME is that it doesn't really have a light-dark morality scale, it deals more with how you handle things and what impression you leave on others. If I compare it to Star Trek, Paragon is something like NG's Picard, while Renegade is Enterprise's Archer - both kickass, but with a vastly different approach.

Giovanna wrote:

I'll definitely try the mod, but that it's called happy ending kind of...is a bad sign to me? I'll be the first to own up to huge flaws in the ending of ME, but one of the things they absolutely got right for me is that none of the endings are easy. The events of ME span three games of brutal reality, horrifying destruction, lives lost, changed, and just all in all BIG THINGS, and I guess a happy ending after all that misery would have felt cheap to me, like a poor result of the buildup of such excellently portrayed mayhem. I've seen and played dozens THE WORLD IS ENDING stories. ME managed to actually move me, though. Not just the characters, or their individual struggles, but I cared about the fate of the universe. Which is hard to do. And that investment almost feels like it would be cheapened if I got a shiny sparkly ice cream cone at the end. I made tough decisions. Saw awful things happen. It couldn't have been easy, pretty, and the status quo? That was so going to get fucked.

As for MEHEM, I really like that the disappointed fans are taking matters into their own hands, instead of offering just endless destructive criticism. And some people want a happy ending, there's nothing wrong with that. But presuming Bioware owe them one is a bit shortsighted and naive. It's a product they thought up and made, after all. Fans sought-fans delivered, and that's great.
But in my opinion, a traditional happy ending would not fit this story, as you said. It would feel cheap and tacked-on. But I can only speak for myself here.

Something different: does anyone have an idea what a sequel could be about? I read that it was announced, and it won't involve Shepard, that is pretty certain. A prequel is likely, but I feel like that would break the immersion. Knowing that all your decisions are practically already made for you by canon kinda spoils the spirit of the franchise so far, I dunno. I'm always suspicious about prequels. It could be a fun game, but really different.
And an actual sequel, with the present state of things...I don't know. I'm guessing it would be very hard to pull off.

Last edited by Snow (12-31-2013 05:40:36 AM)

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#49 | Back to Top12-31-2013 08:45:37 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

Snow wrote:

Something different: does anyone have an idea what a sequel could be about?

- Captain Anderson's Dart Simulator 3000.  Hook up your motion-capturing device of choice and see if you can accurately throw darts at a target shaped like Saren's face.  Difficulty is measured on a scale of one to five bottles of whiskey.
- Mordin Solus, First Person Suturer.  Relive Mordin's glory days healing the sick on Omega, learning through trial and error about the different alien races and where their important organs are.  Excel in your trade and you can hire bodyguards so that you don't have to interrupt surgeries to shoot interlopers in the head quite so much.
- Morinth's Normandy.  In this alternate-continuity romp, prowl through the Normandy as Morinth and see all the characters at their most intimate without having to bother with all that pesky romance.  Will the fellowship of the crew redeem you, or will you reduce everyone to a lifeless shell and use the realistic 3D physics engine to build a little fort out of their bodies?
- Hold the Line.  This is just Space Invaders, except your guy is a salarian, the bad guys are Reapers, and you can't actually kill them.
- Space Action Weapons Calibrator.  I have no idea what the gameplay is, but it's so compelling that you'll want to play it constantly, even when your commanding officer and love interest is talking to you.
- Just Dance: Omega.  Aria kicks Shepard out of Afterlife until Shepard learns to dance better.  Follow the on-screen steps of Kelly Chambers and Thane as they try to teach Shepard the fundamentals of rhythmic movement, backed by the gorgeous Mass Effect soundtrack.  DLC includes Mordin's renditions of Gilbert and Sullivan's greatest hits.
- Mass Effect 1.  Set thousands of years after Mass Effect 3, this game relates the events of the suspiciously similar next cycle, after Shepard refuses to choose aboard the Crucible.  Advantages: game is already made.  Disadvantages: none that I can think of.

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#50 | Back to Top12-31-2013 09:31:59 AM

Snow
Troublesome Insect
From: under the dogstar sail
Registered: 09-30-2013
Posts: 643

Re: Mass Effect 3 - Spoiler Fr- [Renegade Interrupt] Spoiler Heavy

satyreyes wrote:

*PAY ATTENTION BIOWARE*

emot-roflemot-roflemot-rofl
You almost killed me now, in a most inelegant way...

...and I'm OK with that.

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