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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top02-16-2007 07:20:33 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Is Utena a Holy Fool?

Last night I happened to think of "Man of La Mancha" which was a 1960s Broadway play.
Song: Aldonza Lyrics
DON QUIXOTE
My lady...

ALDONZA
I am not your lady!...
I am not any kind of a lady!
I was spawned in a ditch
By a mother who left me there,
Naked and cold and too hungry to cry;
I never blamed her.
I'm sure she left hoping
That I'd have the good sense to die!
Then, of course, there's my father...
I'm told that young ladies
Can point to their fathers
With maidenly pride;
Mine was some regiment
Here for an hour,
I can't even tell you which side!
So of course I became,
As befitted my delicate birth,
The most casual bride
Of the murdering scum of the earth!

DON QUIXOTE
And still thou art my lady.

ALDONZA
And still he torments me!
How should I be a lady?
For a lady has modest and maidenly airs,
And a virtue I somehow suspect that I lack;
It's hard to remember these maidenly airs
In a stable laid flat on your back!
Won't you look at me, look at me,
God, won't you look at me!
Look at the kitchen slut reeking with sweat!
Born on a dung heap to die on a dung heap,
A strumpet men use and forget!
If you feel that you see me
Not quite at my virginal best,
Cross my palm with a coin,
And I'll willingly show you the rest!

DON QUIXOTE
Never deny thou art Dulcinea.

ALDONZA
Take the clouds from your eyes
and see me as I really am!

You have shown me the sky,
But what good is the sky
To a creature who'll never
Do better than crawl?

Of all the cruel bastards
Who've badgered and battered me,
You are the cruelest of all!
Can't you see what your gentle
Insanities do to me?
Rob me of anger and give me despair! Blows and abuse
I can take and give back again,
Tenderness I cannot bear!
So please torture me now
With your "Sweet Dulcineas" no more!
I am no one! I'm nothing!
I'm only Aldonza the whore!

DON QUIXOTE
Now and forever thou art my lady Dulcinea!
(Aldonza screams in despair and collapses.
Source:
http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/manoflam … ldonza.htm

Of course it's not an exact parallel. Anthy is very much high-born and seems very much aware of it. But clearly she has a somewhat similar emotional reaction to Utena.
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0568.jpg

Utena's naivety/idealism/nobility/optimism is a topic in itself. It's her fatal weakness and her greatest power. I can almost see the following dialog:

U: So why doesn't Juri just take it off?
A: It's not that simple.
U: How is keeping it around her neck doing anything?
A: ...it's just not that simple.

The real Anthy would probably be more articulate than that. Utena is almost a Holy Fool and probably neither Anthy or Akio have encountered anything quite like that before.

Last edited by brian (02-16-2007 07:25:00 PM)

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#2 | Back to Top02-17-2007 02:53:46 AM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 962

Re: Is Utena a Holy Fool?

Can't you see what your gentle
Insanities do to me?
Rob me of anger and give me despair! Blows and abuse
I can take and give back again,
Tenderness I cannot bear!

That's an almost freakish resemblance. emot-aaa emot-aaa emot-aaa


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

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#3 | Back to Top02-17-2007 03:02:27 AM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Is Utena a Holy Fool?

When I saw the title of this thread, the first thing I thought of was when you mention the Holy Fool was Tripitaka from the series Monkey! a cheezy show about Monkey who was trapped under a mountain until a holy fool priest released him to go on a holy journey to India.  There was also a water demon guy and a pig spirit guy accompanying them.  It has being a cult classic show in Australia since before I was born.  One of the fun facts about this show was that the boy priest was played by a pretty girl which gave the show a strange kind of sexual tention that sshouldn't have been there in the first place.

Some information on Monkey! The TV series


http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/spatulasama/DooDah.jpg

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#4 | Back to Top02-17-2007 06:58:50 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: Is Utena a Holy Fool?

I believe Anthy's reaction is a product of feelings of victimization and guilt. If you are a victim, and you consent to being a victim ("I've done something wrong, maybe not what they say, but I do deserve this punishment"), it can be hard to accept afterward that someone doesn't care what you may or may not have done wrong, and loves you anyway. I couldn't say for sure about the parallel with the play, having only read the posted lyrics, but it has a psychological basis. The victim or wrongdoer cannot understand that they are still worth something because of the degree to which they have accepted blame for their transgression.


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#5 | Back to Top02-18-2007 06:08:39 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Re: Is Utena a Holy Fool?

Tamago wrote:

When I saw the title of this thread, the first thing I thought of was when you mention the Holy Fool was Tripitaka from the series Monkey! a cheezy show about Monkey who was trapped under a mountain until a holy fool priest released him to go on a holy journey to India.  There was also a water demon guy and a pig spirit guy accompanying them.  It has being a cult classic show in Australia since before I was born.  One of the fun facts about this show was that the boy priest was played by a pretty girl which gave the show a strange kind of sexual tention that sshouldn't have been there in the first place.

Some information on Monkey! The TV series

Wow... this is the legend of Saiyuki in a nutshell. Also called "Great Journey to the West" It's an old buddhist tale about a priest from China, Beijing in particular who was sent on a journey to retrieve magical scroll's that were stolen from the temple, by three (maybe four...) bodhivistas. On his journey he frees a trapped Monkey King named Son-Goku. Though the priest Sanzo was usually shown to be quite wise and powerful priest, though I believe he did release Son Goku by accident, I don't quite remember the detials about that. Whatever the case, he does meet a wonderfully jovial Water Spirit "Kappa" in Japanese, and a Pig Demon, who is a womanizer. In the end they retrieve the scroll's from those whyo stole them (Don't remember much about that part...) and the four were turned into Bodhivistatas for accomplishing the task. Though the reason he would be played asa girl is quite simply. Sanzo in the legend is said to be quite Bishonen, a young man of... 19? I believe, but anyway I'm sure you can find more information at wikipedia or an encyclopedia, then this review of the legend.


Please check out the MTG Utena Set Progress we have made at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o … 103070805#

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#6 | Back to Top02-23-2007 09:21:06 PM

bella
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 11-04-2006
Posts: 581

Re: Is Utena a Holy Fool?

brian wrote:

It's hard to remember these maidenly airs
In a stable laid flat on your back!
Won't you look at me, look at me,
God, won't you look at me!
Look at the kitchen slut reeking with sweat!
Born on a dung heap to die on a dung heap,
A strumpet men use and forget!



You have shown me the sky,
But what good is the sky
To a creature who'll never
Do better than crawl?

Wow. That's really interesting. I can absolutely see a connection between Aldonza and Anthy, and Don Quixote and Utena. It's such a sad reality that people can be beaten down a beaten down by others until they lose sense of themselves and all their confidence fade away; they begin to believe what they're told they are until the real them is sealed away in a coffin. They come to reject anything good in the world, as they've become bitter, telling themselves that there is no such thing as love or happiness. So when they encounter someone who loves them, it's more painful than all the torment they've endured, because it means that there is love, out there somewhere, and they can't touch it or remember what it was like. From that point of view, I can understand why Anthy stabbed Utena, even though she loved her more than anything else in her life. Out of protection, she was trying to tell Utena that the love was waisted, that she was beyond being saved.
I don't believe that Utena, or Don Ouixote for that matter, are 'holy fools'. They contain a special tihng inside them, however. That is unconditional love. Even after Utena sees all of Anthy, she still tries to save her, because Utena has unconditional love for Anthy, a love that can't be broken. I think that Utena is able to see past the masks that Anthy wears, including the mask she has around Akio, and look straight at the Anthy inside the coffin. Don Quixoute does the same, I think, seeing past all that Aldonza believes herself to be and realizing it's not the real her. He loves her regardless of what she's done. This quality is an amazing one of human nature. It does mean that those people will get hurt more than those who don't trust or love anyone out of fear, but they will also become more alive because of that love and that hope which they posess.
(Thanks to Yasha for pointing those qualities of Utena's unconditional love to me earlier. emot-keke)


Happy Holidays Everyone! :3

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#7 | Back to Top02-24-2007 12:33:19 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Is Utena a Holy Fool?

You're very welcome, dear. But one thing comes to mind-- isn't it unconditional love that makes you a Holy Fool? For instance, Jesus was said to have loved the world so much that he gave up his life for it. Utena's only wish was to see Himemiya free, and we have no doubt she would lay down her life for that. Don Quixote loves Aldonza deeply enough to ignore any stain on her character or any slight she may give him. Isn't it possible that unconditional love is what makes one into a Holy Fool-- not in that one is religious or foolish, but that the unconditional love grants one both Holiness (the purity of their desire to love) and Foolishness (the lengths they go to in giving it)?


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#8 | Back to Top02-24-2007 01:20:12 PM

bella
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 11-04-2006
Posts: 581

Re: Is Utena a Holy Fool?

Yasha wrote:

but that the unconditional love grants one both Holiness (the purity of their desire to love) and Foolishness (the lengths they go to in giving it)?

Yes, you're right. It just...makes me sad...that the world is so stained as it has to be that way; the ones who love so deeply are hurt because of it.


Happy Holidays Everyone! :3

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#9 | Back to Top02-24-2007 02:45:56 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Is Utena a Holy Fool?

belladonna wrote:

Yes, you're right. It just...makes me sad...that the world is so stained as it has to be that way; the ones who love so deeply are hurt because of it.

That's why the Holy Fool is foolish. We know better than to try things like that, so we don't do it. The Holy Fool knows better, and then does it anyway. Loving something deeply is bound to hurt you, and anyone sensible knows this, but it takes a very strong person to get past it. Then again, if it didn't hurt to love things, how much worth would love have?


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#10 | Back to Top03-04-2007 03:32:19 PM

Trench Kamen
Eternal Eschatologist
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 12-08-2006
Posts: 903
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Re: Is Utena a Holy Fool?

Is the Fool still holy if the love doesn't work out? Is there ever a point where the strength it takes to be a "fool" just becomes weakness when you refuse to let go?

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#11 | Back to Top03-04-2007 06:50:57 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Is Utena a Holy Fool?

I think the point is that it doesn't have to work out or go well. The Holy Fool would love anyway, even if it didn't. What stops a Holy Fool from being a creepy psycho stalker is the fact that it is love, and that love does what is best, not necessarily what the Fool himself would want. For instance, if it was better for their object of love never to have any contact with them ever again, that's what the Holy Fool would do, even if it hurt like dying. The Fool cares for something more important than his own needs and desires.


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#12 | Back to Top03-04-2007 07:27:00 PM

Hysterical Woman
Touga Topper
From: Maryland
Registered: 03-02-2007
Posts: 50
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Re: Is Utena a Holy Fool?

That does explain why Anthy stabbed Utena. I think Utena acted truly heroic when she tried to save Anthy even after Anthy stabbed her. Her earlier "heroic" action could be seen as just showboating, but that act was truly selfish I think.


"So you should crossdress and help people. And she did.

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#13 | Back to Top04-18-2009 08:15:05 PM

YostinAust
Pathtracer
From: Tallahassee, Florida
Registered: 04-02-2009
Posts: 352

Re: Is Utena a Holy Fool?

I'm not sure if Utena is the Holy Fool here. The Student Council is by far the most quixotic thing in the series. A bunch of overdramatic teens plotting the end of the world, solilquizing about their personal dramas, and all the while doing some of the most ridiculous things in the series. Touga knife-outlining Miki while Juri poured her heart out, Saionji's Joan of Arc rant to Wakaba, Miki thinking he killed Anthy with his demands for curry, etc. Mikage even remarks that the reason he got Saionji back into Ohtori was to provide entertainment due to his foolishness. Next to this crowd, Utena seems almost sane.


"In this age, the mere example of non-conformity, the mere refusal to bend the knee to custom, is itself a service"
     - John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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