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GUYS GUYS I JUST UPLOADED THE 1997 UTENA MUSICAL IN HIGH DEFINITION straight from the Japanese Blu-rays! i am now very tired goodnight

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#1 | Back to Top05-28-2012 10:05:23 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

While most post series fanfics go on to show Utena being in a hospital (wounded) or a mental institution (insane) post Duel called Revolution, does anyone else but myself ever think that Utena might end up abandoning her womanhood after having her femininity repeatedly bashed/questioned in the duel, up to her very last scene?

Script from ep 38:

Akio:  You are my true princess.
Akio:  Swords no longer suit you.
Akio:  I shall keep this sword. And from this day forward, I will protect you.

<Skip long drama>

Akio:  A sword isn't meant for a girl to wave around like that.

<skip>

Akio:  ...you should no longer be just a pure soul who wants to be a Prince.
Akio:  Dresses don't go with swords.

<skip more verbal  bitch slapping>

Akio:  I have a fiancee, but that didn't stop you. (slut)

<intense bitch slapping>

Akio:  That's right. You didn't even try to understand Anthy.
Akio:  In the end, you had your hands full just thinking about yourself.
Akio:  How cute. You're a good woman. (good bitch)
Akio:  You should stay a girl.

Script from ep 39:

Anthy:  You remind me of the Dios I once loved.
Anthy:  But you can't become my Prince.
Anthy:  Because you're a girl.
Utena:  Hime...Himemiya...

<SKIP LONG DRAMA>

Dios:  You can't do it. You're a girl, aren't you?

<More thinly-veiled bitchslapping by Dios/Akio>

Dios:  I shall give you a kiss as your reward.
Dios:  This is your consolation. (bitch)

<SKIP LONG DRAMA>

Utena (believing she failed):  I really...couldn't become a Prince.
Utena:  I'm sorry, Himemiya. Sorry for ending up just a make-believe Prince...
Utena:  Forgive me  (for not being a boy)

(THAT IS HER LAST SCENE IN THE SHOW)

Had Anthy failed in immediately finding Utena post duel, had Utena then spent years and on stuck with the womanhood = weak idea that was blow beaten into her by Akio (and Anthy, and the Million Swords that presumably rushed her), I see this "failed girl prince" having no choice but to "revolutionize" herself by abandoning her womanhood altogether.  The Movie, which is said to express implicitly  the ideas that the anime hadn't made explicit, showed Movie-Utena cross dressing as a boy post trauma of losing Movie-Touga - I think anime Utena had a good chance of really going through a sex-change (which is what she did in my fic Seinen Kakumei Utena http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=3026) unless someone was there to stop her in time.

What'd you guys think?

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (05-28-2012 11:23:45 AM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#2 | Back to Top05-28-2012 01:17:22 PM

satyreyes
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From: New Orleans, Louisiana
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

Hmm.  First off, let me confess that I haven't read Seinen Kakumei Utena yet -- I almost never read fic, even very good fic -- so I'm only responding here to the idea of Utena having a sex change, not to your story where it happens.  There are a lot of plot ideas that I really don't see that can be made to make perfect sense in a well-written fic.  But as far as the idea, color me skeptical.

I would differ with you about at least a couple of the assumptions you make above.

- Does Utena buy the lie, fed to her by Akio and Dios and Anthy, that only boys can be princes?
You believe yes.  My gut says no.  Practically everyone in the series tells Utena that girls can't be princes, yet the only time we see her come close to acceding to that idea is in episode 11, when Touga convinces her that she'd rather be a princess.  But episode 11 is followed by episode 12.  So we have seen Utena be psychologically resilient: she responds to loss by retreating into femininity (not masculinity), but is soon called back to herself.  I think a similar outcome is very plausible after the final episode of the show.  Utena definitely has a complicated relationship with masculinity, but we never see her wish to be a boy -- and I don't see any text that supports your reading of her final line, which seems to me to be about not being strong enough or not being a good enough friend, not about not being a boy.  (As an aside, movie Utena cross-dresses -- well, yeah, so does series Utena.  That's nothing new.)

- More fundamentally: Will Utena still even want to be a prince when she wakes up?
You assume yes.  My gut says no.  In fact, my gut says that Utena hasn't been trying to be a prince for about two episodes by the end of the show.  Princes rescue innocent damsels.  They don't ordinarily rescue witches, particularly not witches who have stabbed them in the back.  In spite of her final lines, Utena's actions in the last episode are not consistent with those of a prince; they're consistent with those of a devoted friend, which the series explicitly contrasts with a prince by showing how Dios saves strangers while neglecting his sister.  Anthy is no longer a princess or damsel in distress to Utena, but a friend.   I don't think Utena will ever stop wanting to do good, but I think that once this moment of immediate and devastating loss passes, Utena will abandon the idea that she needs to be a prince to do good.  This is part of passing into adulthood.

Just my couple of cents. emot-smile

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#3 | Back to Top05-28-2012 01:54:25 PM

OnlyInThisLight
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Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

satyreyes wrote:

Hmm.  First off, let me confess that I haven't read Seinen Kakumei Utena yet -- I almost never read fic, even very good fic -- so I'm only responding here to the idea of Utena having a sex change, not to your story where it happens.  There are a lot of plot ideas that I really don't see that can be made to make perfect sense in a well-written fic.  But as far as the idea, color me skeptical.

I would differ with you about at least a couple of the assumptions you make above.

- Does Utena buy the lie, fed to her by Akio and Dios and Anthy, that only boys can be princes?
You believe yes.  My gut says no.  Practically everyone in the series tells Utena that girls can't be princes, yet the only time we see her come close to acceding to that idea is in episode 11, when Touga convinces her that she'd rather be a princess.  But episode 11 is followed by episode 12.  So we have seen Utena be psychologically resilient: she responds to loss by retreating into femininity (not masculinity), but is soon called back to herself.  I think a similar outcome is very plausible after the final episode of the show.  Utena definitely has a complicated relationship with masculinity, but we never see her wish to be a boy -- and I don't see any text that supports your reading of her final line, which seems to me to be about not being strong enough or not being a good enough friend, not about not being a boy.  (As an aside, movie Utena cross-dresses -- well, yeah, so does series Utena.  That's nothing new.)

- More fundamentally: Will Utena still even want to be a prince when she wakes up?
You assume yes.  My gut says no.  In fact, my gut says that Utena hasn't been trying to be a prince for about two episodes by the end of the show.  Princes rescue innocent damsels.  They don't ordinarily rescue witches, particularly not witches who have stabbed them in the back.  In spite of her final lines, Utena's actions in the last episode are not consistent with those of a prince; they're consistent with those of a devoted friend, which the series explicitly contrasts with a prince by showing how Dios saves strangers while neglecting his sister.  Anthy is no longer a princess or damsel in distress to Utena, but a friend.   I don't think Utena will ever stop wanting to do good, but I think that once this moment of immediate and devastating loss passes, Utena will abandon the idea that she needs to be a prince to do good.  This is part of passing into adulthood.

Just my couple of cents. emot-smile

Ditto on evurythang.  Could not have said it better.

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#4 | Back to Top05-28-2012 03:02:19 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

Hi Satyreyes:

It's okay if you don't read fanfics; but perhaps my first post is not precisely worded enough, that you seem to misunderstand it in very significant ways. emot-keke

- Does Utena buy the lie, fed to her by Akio and Dios and Anthy, that only boys can be princes?
You believe yes.

Umm . . . I don't exactly believe that, and I'll elaborate on why in the coming part.

- More fundamentally: Will Utena still even want to be a prince when she wakes up?
You assume yes.

emot-aaa No, I don't, actually.

What I believe/assume/care is not whether Utena will still want to be a prince, or not, but rather what I said before:

Utena might end up abandoning her womanhood after having her femininity repeatedly bashed/questioned in the duel

and that Utena might get

stuck with the womanhood = weak idea

after the duel, and thus can no longer stand being female.

When 14 yr old Tenjou Utena, once princely and tough, then went through the following string of events:

1) become purposely blind to Ohtori Akio - whom she as a woman finds attractive - being The Ends of the World despite multiples of his trademark convertible being present during those last duels
2) have her underage virginity being taken by Akio, an engaged grownup
3) finding out about Akio sexing (raping?) his sister her good friend Anthy
4) subsequently use of feminine attires/makeups/wiles to antagonize Anthy (see ep 37), the sexed sister, while competing with her for such a man’s (an engaged one) affection (in her most unbecoming scene in the series):
(Utena:  Are you upset?
Anthy:  What about?
Utena:  I thought you'd say that.
Utena:  Maybe I picked on you a little.
Utena:  I seem really feminine tonight. Akio-san said that. )
5) faces Akio in duel (ep 38, 39), which was really a long string of attacks by Akio (and Anthy) on her being a girl, which Utena might better withstand, if not for Anthy falling out of her grasp thus making Utena believe she fails (and she will ask herself why).
6) gets stabbed by Swords of Hate (all crying "witch" - a degrading term for female in the series)

I find it only natural that her comfort level with being female will drop drastically thereafter.  I mean, simple things like using makeup and/or dressing femininely (should) now remind her of her surrendering to/mocked by Akio.  How can she even hope to function properly as a female afterwards (especially if left on her own) post-Revolution?   

and I don't see any text that supports your reading of her final line, which seems to me to be about not being strong enough or not being a good enough friend, not about not being a boy.

Well, Anthy stated in the beginning of Ep 39 that Utena cannot become her prince because she is a girl:
Anthy:  But you can't become my Prince.
Anthy:  Because you're a girl.

And, in Utena's last few on screen minutes, where they speak to each other in child voice over (prior to the "take my hand" bit):
Anthy:  Who are you?
Utena:  I came to save you.
Anthy:  But, you're a...  (it has to be the word girl here, me thinks; either way, Utena will then see Anthy hesitating to give her hand)

So, unless Utena has the ability to stay deaf to Anthy's many words during the dramatic, misogynistic ordeal she herself was then suffering from, she should and will associate her eventual failing to save Anthy as having to do with her being a girl; whether she wants to be a prince or not afterwards, she will see being a girl as being powerless (and slutty and low, after Akio attacking her for bedding him knowing he is engaged, and for her not trying to understand Anthy (see #4 above)

That's why I believe in the strong possibility of Utena undergoing severe steps to get rid of her own womanhood (sex-change being the modern science way) post-Revolution, unless someone associated with the core of her trauma (Anthy) can counsel her out of it in time (it took them 7 years to reunite in my story, thus how a trans man Utena came into born).

(As an aside, movie Utena cross-dresses -- well, yeah, so does series Utena.  That's nothing new.)

emot-aaa

I don't think series Utena has ever been mistaken as a boy by a stranger character, unlike movie Utena, whom movie Saionji (and likely even movie Wakaba) thought of as a boy at first.  That's because series Utena wears her hair in a long, girly waved cut, unlike movie Utena, who hides it under a cap to create a truly masculine style.  To say series Utena "cross dress" just cause of that "boy's uniform" (with the revealing shorts that no real boy would dare wear) will be like saying that a beared scot man cross dresses by wearing a kilt.   emot-rolleyes

Movie Utena, on the other hand, is a pure manly cross dresser, that with the long trousers and hidden hair.

Now I don't expect everyone will agree with my assumption that post-series Utena has a strong possibility of turning into a trans man, but can you now at least see where my idea is coming from?  Cause if not, then I'm a lesser writer than I thought I'd be . . . emot-frown


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#5 | Back to Top05-28-2012 03:28:15 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1318
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

Sorry for the double post, but regarding this:

episode 11, when Touga convinces her that she'd rather be a princess.  But episode 11 is followed by episode 12.  So we have seen Utena be psychologically resilient: she responds to loss by retreating into femininity (not masculinity), but is soon called back to herself.

Note that Touga did not make Utena feel that being a princess/girl is slutty and morally low;  Akio did in ep 38 (by reminding her of her knowing his engagement and her antagonizing Anthy after finding out their incest)
Akio:  That's right. You didn't even try to understand Anthy.
Akio:  In the end, you had your hands full just thinking about yourself.
Akio:  How cute. You're a good woman.
Akio:  You should stay a girl.

Akio associated "just thinking about yourself" with "woman" and "girl" and slammed it into Utena full force, Touga never did anything like that - he was making Utena's prince-nity seem pointless (without attacking her femininity), thus why she was driven into femininity as safe-haven.  Akio, during ep 38, 39, skewered Utena's femininity as something to be condemned, I doubt Utena can escape there afterwards.

Oh, and her getting called back to herself did not happen by her own power, she had Wakaba to thank (along with small help from Juri).  She is NOT psychologically resilient when on her own (think coffin scene, where she needed to meet Dios before getting out), but relies heavily on friend(s) to keep her afloat. 

If Utena was left alone after Revolution to sink on her own, with no friends on her side, God knows into what places she'd fall (though I myself think sex-change is one of the bigger possibilities).

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (05-28-2012 03:49:10 PM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#6 | Back to Top05-28-2012 03:58:39 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Now I don't expect everyone will agree with my assumption that post-series Utena has a strong possibility of turning into a trans man, but can you now at least see where my idea is coming from?  Cause if not, then I'm a lesser writer than I thought I'd be . . . emot-frown

Oh, please don't take it that way!  You're right -- I assumed something about your first post that you didn't say and didn't mean.  You said that her femininity was questioned, but I took that to mean that her ability to become a prince was questioned, since that's the way Utena's femininity is usually questioned in the show, including in some (but not all) of the quotes you provided.  So I spent a post debating a straw man without realizing it.  The joke is on me! emot-smile

But some of what I said still holds.  I just cannot bring myself to believe that anything that has happened will persuade Utena that being a girl makes her weak.  No one has ever convinced her of that before -- unless it's Touga, with the results I described above -- and I don't see why this is different.  It is probable that Utena will come out of the final duel with a better understanding of her own weaknesses, which are real, but I don't think she'll associate those weaknesses with Akio's misogynist taunts or Dios's misogynist patronizing.  Why would she?  Being a girl has absolutely never kept her from doing anything she wanted to do.  No, when Utena is going over her weaknesses, this is the scene she's going to remember:

Utena:  Are you running away?!
Utena:  Weren't we gonna have tea and laugh together for our ten-year reunion?
Anthy:  I'm sorry, Utena-sama.
Anthy:  I'm so sorry.
Anthy:  Because I'm the Rose Bride...because I'm a doll with no heart...
Anthy:  I thought that no matter what befell my body, my heart wouldn't feel the pain.
Anthy:  I'm sorry, Utena-sama. My suffering is my rightful punishment as the Rose Bride.
Anthy:  But...making you suffer...you were merely caught up in it all...
Anthy:  I knew everything.
Anthy:  I exploited your innocence. I encroached upon your kindness.
Anthy:  I'm sorry, Utena-sama. I've been unfair to you.
Anthy:  I'm a dirty woman. I've betrayed you all along. I-
Utena:  No.
Utena:  I...didn't recognize your pain.
Utena:  I didn't realize your suffering.
Utena:  Instead, I just kept on pretending to be the Prince who could save you.
Utena:  I was just being conceited about protecting you.
Utena:  And when I saw you and Akio-san together...I even thought you had betrayed me.
Utena:  When you were suffering so much...when I had said we should save each other...
Utena:  I'M the one who's unfair. I'm the one who's dirty.
Utena:  I'm the one who betrayed you.

This is Utena's best and brightest moment in the show, second only to going after Anthy with an Anthy-inflicted gut wound.  It was here, not in the arena with Akio, when Utena realized what has caused her to fail Anthy.  It was her lack of empathy, her conceit, and later her jealousy.  These are the qualities she's going to flagellate herself over later -- not her sex.  Akio's later words, calculated to hurt Utena, are largely driving home the wrong blade.

It's also worth remembering how Utena deals with abuse from her enemies.  It just makes her angrier and more determined.  You can hurt Utena with words if you're her friend, but not once she's defined herself in opposition to you.  She shuts you out.  She demonstrates this pretty much whenever she interacts with Saionji, whenever anyone insults her in the dueling arena, and very notably in episode 23, when Mikage compares her to himself in a way that actually has some merit -- and she responds by slamming his head into the floor.  Akio has been successful in getting inside her head in the past because she thought he was her big brother by proxy, but the text suggests that by the final episode Utena is ignoring his soft-spoken taunts and using them for fuel the same way she does with anyone else who does the same thing.  I don't think he'll succeed in convincing her that being a girl is either here or there.

One place I think you have a good point is in how Utena's self-feminization late in the series brings out the worst in her, in ways that become obvious to her as well as to the audience.  I think this would support your idea if Utena were the kind of person to confuse being feminine with being a girl.  But on the contrary, we usually see Utena thoughtlessly dismiss any notion that because she's a girl she should be feminine.  (And she meets Akio's converse argument -- that because she's feminine she should be a girl -- with a look of stunned disbelief.)  I could get behind the idea that after the duel she will renounce being feminine, at least in the way she was in episode 37.  But I see absolutely no reason why she should renounce being female.  Utena is a little dumb, but she's nowhere near stupid enough to think that a double mastectomy will cure the weaknesses that she will think kept her from saving Anthy.

Lastly:

gorgeousshutin wrote:

To say series Utena "cross dress" just cause of that "boy's uniform" (with the revealing shorts that no real boy would dare wear) will be like saying that a beared scot man cross dresses by wearing a kilt.

I agree that Utena's movie uniform is more masculine than her series uniform -- even fooling Saionji, as you say -- but this is a little silly.  Utena's uniform in the series is textually identified as a boys' uniform.   That's the first scene we ever have with Utena, in fact; it's part of how we're initially led to understand her character.  And a girl wearing a boys' uniform is cross-dressing by definition.

More broadly, though, I think it's a Really Bad Idea to try to draw a conclusion about the series using evidence from the movie.  Some people try it anyway, so you're in good company, but to me the mapping between the show and the movie is nowhere near close enough to use either one to explain the other.  Every character except possibly Wakaba is completely different, and the plots hardly resemble each other at all.

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#7 | Back to Top05-28-2012 04:52:49 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Posts: 1318
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

Hi again Satyreyes:

I'm so glad this can actually last into such a long discussion emot-dance

I could get behind the idea that after the duel she will renounce being feminine, at least in the way she was in episode 37.  But I see absolutely no reason why she should renounce being female.  Utena is a little dumb, but she's nowhere near stupid enough to think that a double mastectomy will cure the weaknesses that she will think kept her from saving Anthy.

In my understanding, it's no longer about whether she can/cannot save Anthy, but whether she has value as a human being that can live on.
And there's this

6) gets stabbed by Swords of Hate (all crying "witch" - a degrading term for female in the series)

We last saw Utena getting rushed by the swords.  So, unless we see a scene where someone implicitly state she had not become eternally sword infested like Anthy was throughout much of the show (even when she appeared "normal", the swords still are in the host, as shown in the scene where Utena unintentionally caught a glimpse of Anthy's silhouette pierced by multiple swords), I'll be thinking that Utena will be infested with Swords of Hate denouncing her as a witch at every single moment, thus getting her psyche broken down.  Whatever her intelligence level is, I don't think post-series Utena could even be sane until Anthy found and rescue her, much less intelligent.  I can see the swords forcing her into "ditching" her female gender in a desperate attempt to try and escape the "witch" label - go through sex-change is largely to escape the swords' mental (and physical) tormenting.

Thus in my story where it took 7 years for Anthy to find her, Utena was already a Trans Man (albeit somewhat against even her own true will).  The sex-change in Seinen can be roughly represented by the following equation:

1 losing faith/hope in woman gender + 9 swords coercing = 10/10 trans man body (new coffin/shell to keep her bound in unhappiness, thus why Seinen Anthy involved the Duelists for another revolution to rid the swords (trying to turn them against Akio), and let Utena be her true self body and soul without need for gender role restrictions or prince/princess identities)

I think most fans cannot see Utena as a VICTIM post series since the show ended on the upbeat note of Anthy walking out of Ohtori: the fact that Utena a) didn't see that b) likely stuck with the swords of hate make me think the less optimistic possibilities actually seem more likely.  Ember K's Speak Now depicts Utena as a hate sword controlled bride forced into marrying a man she doesn't love (Anthy saved her last min), and I think that is one of the likelier scenarios I've seen in Utena fanfiction.  Though with the swords' strong hatred, I see them doing EVEN MORE DAMAGE to Utena, thus why my fic where the swords forced her to self destroy her womanhood when Anthy came too late to the rescue.   

Oh, and before we go further, Seinen is a gender neutral term meaning "young/green of age adult".

Utena's uniform in the series is textually identified as a boys' uniform.   That's the first scene we ever have with Utena, in fact; it's part of how we're initially led to understand her character.

But we don't see any other regular male students 14 and on wearing anything like that (hello, Tatsuya, hello, nobodies who laughed at Wakaba's letter).  Tsuwabuki is the only one who wore something slightly similar, and even such a LITTLE kid wasn't showing his legs nor has it tight around the hips.  Utena's was a purposefully girly non-skirt uniform - its pretend cross dressing without really going there.  Like many Asian boys who wear skirts/kilts over tight jeans and still are NOT really cross dressing, but merely mildly androgynous and attention-seeking-ly chic.

but to me the mapping between the show and the movie is nowhere near close enough to use either one to explain the other.

Oh, Seinen Kakumei Utena will not really use the film to explain the series; though it borrows some of the film's elements (hi, char cars), it is series based.

However, enokido youji, writer of the show, had the following to say

see
http://iwanihana.info/mawaru/2011/10/04 … ido-youji/

Although the TV series touched upon Touga’s younger days, the film goes into more detailsthe wound of Touga that was never directly depicted.  In his younger days, Touga was a normal kid who enjoyed happy times with his friend Saionji Keiichi and his younger sister Nanami. However, he came to know his unfortunate fate from the time he was ordered by his parents to wear his hair long. His parents sold him to the Kiryuu family. Although he was an adopted son on the surface, the instinctive Touga knew what that meant. And in order to protect his younger sister, he accepted his lot. Being sold. We did not go into depicting what Touga’s parents obtained by going as far as selling their son. We would like you to think of it as a kind of metaphor. And Touga accepted in silence the sexual abuse from his new parents. His personality changed while he made a magnanimous show of enjoying the abuses in order to prevent his personality from splitting. The change took place in a spot so deep in his mind, that even those closest to him did not notice. Saionji and Nanami never noticed out of their innocence. And Touga never told his secret to anyone.

From the Touga rape intended to be canon for both series and film, it seems that the writer intends for the film to express ideas that they originally intended for the series, but could not show blatantly until the film.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (05-28-2012 07:29:25 PM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#8 | Back to Top05-28-2012 07:26:45 PM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

However, enokido youji, writer of the show, had the following to say

see
http://iwanihana.info/mawaru/2011/10/04 … ido-youji/

Although the TV series touched upon Touga’s younger days, the film goes into more detailsthe wound of Touga that was never directly depicted.  In his younger days, Touga was a normal kid who enjoyed happy times with his friend Saionji Keiichi and his younger sister Nanami. However, he came to know his unfortunate fate from the time he was ordered by his parents to wear his hair long. His parents sold him to the Kiryuu family. Although he was an adopted son on the surface, the instinctive Touga knew what that meant. And in order to protect his younger sister, he accepted his lot. Being sold. We did not go into depicting what Touga’s parents obtained by going as far as selling their son. We would like you to think of it as a kind of metaphor. And Touga accepted in silence the sexual abuse from his new parents. His personality changed while he made a magnanimous show of enjoying the abuses in order to prevent his personality from splitting. The change took place in a spot so deep in his mind, that even those closest to him did not notice. Saionji and Nanami never noticed out of their innocence. And Touga never told his secret to anyone.

From the Touga rape intended to be canon for both series and film, it seems that the writer intends for the film to express ideas that they originally intended for the series, but could not show blatantly until the film.

I'm only going to throw this out there since I'm a staunch defender of the various versions of the Utena story being separate entities.

In short, if it didn't happen in the show, it didn't happen. It doesn't matter if the writer says later this is what he envisioned. If he didn't put in the original script, it cannot be assumed to have been there. It's not intended to be canon, and it's not canon, except in the film where it took place.

This is often referred to in other fandoms as "it's in the novel" or "it's in the novelization." Which is to say, if it didn't happen within the medium we are speaking of, it didn't happen, even if another version of the story includes it. If scenes are deleted from a film, they aren't canon, regardless if at one point in time the director had considered including them.

The reason why something is cut or is not included doesn't really matter. It might have been excised for flow, for time, because the plot evolved later, or because the writer felt the medium wasn't appropriate for the scene. If it wasn't in the story, it's not canon. I shouldn't have to base my opinion and perception of a character or event based on something that did not happen except in the writer's imagination, or happened elsewhere in another medium.

To me, for example, Touga in the series was never raped as a child. Ever. It did not happen at any point on screen, and I would have never assumed such a thing had happened based on what I watched in the show. Had I never watched the movie, I would have happily considered him to simply be a morally confused and manipulative jerk.

I say this only because your last post seemed to use the idea of intended canon to give your perspectives more weight. While this is legitimate when it applies to your own fan-fiction and the ideas you're using for it, I'd advise caution when trying to apply it directly to the series or the film.

Saying that, however, I could have easily been misreading your intentions there, so all apologies if that's the case. emot-smile

Last edited by Ashnod (05-28-2012 07:30:11 PM)


Flowers without names blooming in the field can only sway in the wind. But I was born with a destiny of roses, born to live in passion and glory.

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#9 | Back to Top05-28-2012 07:43:34 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

While this is legitimate when it applies to your own fan-fiction and the ideas you're using for it

Oh, I'm only using the part where people can turn into cars in my fic, that's all (if you read fanfic at all, please trying reading it? http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=3026 It's current at 4 parts and over 24379 words with more parts to come, and is not a joke effort at all).

And I'm neither pro nor against the Movie being completely separated from the Series (since I don't really care), but the writer is using Touga's rape to explain why he is "stronger" than TV Saionji here:

http://iwanihana.info/mawaru/2011/10/04 … ido-youji/

So what did Touga gain in exchange at that point in time? It was the sense of alienation from being abused every night and seeing his innocent friend and sister during the day. The alienated self.
<SKIP>
In the TV series, Saionji always felt that he was one step behind Touga. Although the two are more or less equal in terms of ability, what Saionji lacked was that sense of alienation.

Thus why I brought this up in the thread.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#10 | Back to Top05-28-2012 09:46:25 PM

allegoriest
Delicious Duellist
From: Cloudcuckooland
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2506
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

I am tripping balls and not gonna read this whole thread. Maybe later.


I don't think Utena would ever abandon being a girl. (She likes it too damn much.) I think the whole time she is VERY aware of being a girl and not very ashamed of it. She plays basketball with boys in her underwear and gets offended that they want her play all the time with stinky yucky boys. If anything, I was under the impression she became more comfortable with being a lady prince as it went on. Besides, a lady prince freed Anthy anyway.



Point being, I don't think she'd do something like that cause THE MAN told her too. She'd give him the finger and go save princesses. With her boobs. I think she's confident enough in herself as she is. (If she did have a sex change, AKIO WINS.)

I... uhmm... I was kinda under the impression that was the point of the whole show. D:




As for the movie being the series, with that logic, Touga's a zombie. Nanami is really a cow who's sometimes human. Miki is evil and stealing kisses. Shiori isn't really there. Juri is a whiny boylover. And then all the different Akios....



Now I'm going to go drown myself in Tab.


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#11 | Back to Top05-28-2012 11:25:14 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

Gorgeousshutin, it sounds like you aren't imagining post-series Utena as making decisions rationally at all!  emot-smile  You think Utena is likely to become a Rose Bride -- which must be speculation, since we see the swords destroying the arena after they hit Utena, and Utena hasn't imprisoned a prince like Anthy did.  If that premise is indeed true, then I can see all sorts of possibilities blossoming out of it, including Utena being driven insane.  And if Utena is insane and being forced into doing things by the swords, then I guess I can't rule out her getting a sex change, in the same way I can't rule out her robbing a bank or killing herself.  It's fine ground for fic.  But that initial premise, that Utena took on Anthy's swords, does not have direct textual support.

The idea of Utena getting a sex change is a provocative idea, since the series puts gender roles (and Utena's gender roles in particular) in question from the outset, but it sounds like we agree that she'd have to be insane to actually do it.  emot-smile

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#12 | Back to Top05-29-2012 09:56:19 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

Hi Allegoriest:

If she did have a sex change, AKIO WINS

Two words: Million Swords.
What's a 14 yr old's chance against that, regardless of how tough, noble she is?
edited to add:

I... uhmm... I was kinda under the impression that was the point of the whole show. D:

My view on the point of the show is that Utena helped Anthy win against Akio with friendship, that even a supreme victim/passive-aggressive like Anthy can be saved if people care about her; the swords rushing Utena at the end showed the help she gave is an act of self-sacrifice - an act that can accomplish even what most people think are impossible.

p.s.  Me with hypnotist's voice: READ MY FIC ~~

Hi Satryeyes:

Gorgeousshutin, it sounds like you aren't imagining post-series Utena as making decisions rationally at all!

I see her in a hot, desperate place post-series (read below)

You think Utena is likely to become a Rose Bride

emot-aaa
No.   I think Utena will go through the following: 

1) seen as the prince by the swords (even while Utena herself thinks she is not one), which, according to Akio, will go after the prince unless the Rose Bride took them on his behalf
(Akio:  The Million Swords that shine with people's hatred.
Akio:  They stir at the sight of this Prince's sword.
swords:  The witch...the witch...the witch...witch...accursed witch...witch...
Utena:  Himemiya....Himemiya!
Akio:  Drawing the swords from the Prince to herself.
Akio:  That is the Rose Bride's destiny. )

2) attacked by swords since Utena had no rose bride to take swords for him

3) eternally stuck with swords like Anthy was, and be tormented /condemned forever unless Anthy found/save her (as to the how, that's up to the individual's interpretation); since they see Utena as prince instead of bride, they would hurt her the way they hurt princes.  In my mind, the cruelest thing they can do to a girl who wants to become a prince is to destroy her womanhood (which was already much battered from the duel, thus makes for easy target) by condemning the "prince" as a "witch/bitch" until she can take no more and thus jump into masculinity as safe-haven.

And if Utena is insane and being forced into doing things by the swords, then I guess I can't rule out her getting a sex change, in the same way I can't rule out her robbing a bank or killing herself.

Not the same. If the swords are to make Utena rob a bank, it'd have to be an Ohtori family owned bank for this to have some relevance to the series.  I chose sex change cause I see Utena often attacked for her either falling out of OR fitting into the gender role/coffin of a girl in the series, thus I figure the swords (the series' negative forces) will go that route when aiming to hurt her in their hatred.  Believe it or not, I can see her killing herself post swords should no one come to her rescue in time. 

The idea of Utena getting a sex change is a provocative idea, since the series puts gender roles (and Utena's gender roles in particular) in question from the outset, but it sounds like we agree that she'd have to be insane to actually do it.  emot-smile

I think I'm finally realizing how this discussion end up taking so long: it's because I just assume that everyone will remember Utena's grand final scene is of her getting rushed by the swords, and that they'll see post-series Utena as having been either ran through or infested by them (thus leading to the many outcomes of such likely unfortunate event) which the the price of her self sacrifice in helping Anthy.

I never knew how some might think the swords will have little to no effects on Utena afterwards, or that Utena was somehow spared from getting stabbed by the million (given what we've seen in the show, how?).  I always see the million swords as being capable of hurting even non-Anthy, non-Akio people in deeply psychological way (like how Anthy was hurt as suffering, undying Rose Bride, only now they get to hurt a bride-less prince), thus why Anthy fearfully said:
(Anthy:  You mustn't! Hurry and run away! The swords are...
Utena:  Take my hand! Come on, Himemiya!
Anthy:  You don't understand! If you don't run quickly... )
how can post series Utena not get SEVERELY affected after getting rushed?!

we see the swords destroying the arena after they hit Utena

Exactly, everything prince-related, they hate.  Akio was spared only because Anthy had been

Drawing the swords from the Prince to herself

.  And the swords have power enough to destroy the area that Mikage (and Akio) had sacrificed many to make appear, thus perhaps why Akio later said the rose code has to start from scratch.

Unless Anthy found Utena immediately post revolution (unlikely since in ep 39
(shadow:  Oh, now I remember. Her!
shadow:  But didn't she get hurt real bad and hospitalized a month or two ago? ), Utena will have to suffer under the swords until she gets rescued: the longer that rescue took, the more damage Utena's body and soul will sustain.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (05-29-2012 11:45:10 AM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#13 | Back to Top05-29-2012 11:51:26 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

Then let's trace out the chain of assumptions we have to make to reach the conclusion you do.

- The swords see Utena as a prince.
- The swords attack Utena because they see her as a prince, not because they're lashing out at everything in their path with blind hate.
- Opening Anthy's coffin only redirected the swords; it did not break the curse entirely in one final cataclysmic storm of iron.
- The swords can lodge themselves in anyone, whether prince or witch or grown-up.  You don't have to volunteer like Anthy did.
- The swords have the same agenda for princes that they do for witches: to cause pain.  They won't, for example, torture witches but kill princes.
- The swords are able to pursue people even if they leave the garden where no one can ever grow up.
- The swords will call a prince a witch if they think it will hurt em.
- Either the swords can literally force their victim to do things, or enough misogyny will cause a tortured Utena to decide to become a man.
- Anthy does not know and cannot guess any of this (or else she knows but it doesn't faze her emotionally at the end of the last episode).

I disagree to varying degrees with every one of these assumptions, so I guess it's not surprising that we also disagree about your conclusion emot-smile  But at least I can see now what thoughts led you there.

To me it's not much of a revolution if Utena has only perpetuated the cycle of one person suffering forever in another person's place -- Dios for maidens, Anthy for Dios, and now Utena for Anthy.  That would be an unsatisfying outcome to me.  It makes Utena just another prince or witch, when I think she's something entirely different and better than either.  I think Utena after the series is likely to be battered and distraught, but alive and sane.  Your mileage may vary. emot-smile

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#14 | Back to Top05-29-2012 12:13:34 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

Hi Satyreyes:

Shorter post this time, I promise emot-biggrin

Anthy does not know and cannot guess any of this (or else she knows but it doesn't faze her emotionally at the end of the last episode).

I believe Anthy knows the damage Utena will sustain from saving her:

(Anthy:  You mustn't! Hurry and run away! The swords are...
Utena:  Take my hand! Come on, Himemiya!
Anthy:  You don't understand! If you don't run quickly... )

thus why in the end of the last ep Anthy NEEDS to go after Utena
Anthy:  Now it's my turn to go to you.  (in my thinking, means "now it's my turn to save you)
Anthy:  No matter where you are, I'll find you for sure.
Anthy:  Wait for me, Utena.

I think Utena after the series is likely to be battered and distraught, but alive and sane.  Your mileage may vary.

In my thinking, Anthy going after Utena after the series to save her - like the girl prince once saved the witch - thus bringing things into FULL CIRCLE via the glorious theme of reciprocating love; that's what makes the show great for me.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#15 | Back to Top05-29-2012 02:06:43 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

While I don't see her as transexual, I can accept Utena making that change with such a premise. I'm just a little concerned how it might come across for actual transexuals.

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#16 | Back to Top05-29-2012 03:35:09 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

how it might come across for actual transexuals.

I'm DOUBT real life transexuals are forced into going through that procedure (by otherworldly forces even), and I think they do what they do because they want & need a body that can help them express their inner selves.

Seinen Utena, on the other had, was forcedly driven into it. 

What happened to my version of Utena is like an ordinarily masculine man who was ultimatedly humilated/degraded by having his manhood repeatedly ridiculed, then tortured endlessly until he agreed to sex-change plus wear dresses for the rest of his life: that, is COMPLETELY different than a woman trapped inside a man's body (ie. real life transexual) wanting to sex-change so what's outside is closer to how she feel inside.

Real life trans men do HRT hoping to empower their own self and feel like the men that they are inside, while the swords degenerated trans Utena's self by forcing Utena to self destruct a part of her self (her womanhood) that was battered and weakened in duel; the former attains their true selves (as far as current technology permits) through HRT, the latter loses it.

Edited to add: I don't know if I can post this here, but this is a mildly spoilerific poster for Seinen Kakumei Utena (if it's not proper to this thread, I'll remove it) just so I can get my trans-Utena idea across better:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2IeTi7UB-X4/T8WHhR79anI/AAAAAAAAAFo/ehRKqwDr5Pc/s1600/SKU_poster1_rs1.gif
Seinen Kakumei Utena:  It's a mature revolution this time around.

Left Column, from up to down: Saionji, Touga (yes, he got a "W" branded to his face now)
Middle Column: Anthy, Utena (post "process"; and yes, that's one of those swords right there)
Right Column, from up to down, left to right: Juri, Miki, Tsuwabuki

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (05-29-2012 09:20:53 PM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#17 | Back to Top05-29-2012 10:52:30 PM

OnlyInThisLight
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Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

I'm actually of the notion that Utena did not sacrifice herself, or that if she did, that sacrifice is not what 'saved' Anthy.  Anthy was moved to help herself not by Utena's sacrifice of getting up despite her wounds, but by the fact that she showed any desire to help her at all after all her faults and intentions had been revealed.  Anthy's lived a life where countless persons have more than likely sacrificed for her in the duels.  It's part of the whole Prince schtick, done out of desire to fit the role or because it is easier then more complex answers (which is abig part of Utena's character development, that she was previously guilty of this as well), and not because someone truly cared and most importantly, knew and understood her, personally, as a person and not solely as a victim, damsel or woman.   It is the promise of people like that, like Utena, existing in the world that encourages Anthy to take those steps into it despite how she's been treated before. 

Sacrifice is the fatalistic fallacy that Akio and her wholly believe in, that for one person's happiness there must be another person's loss, and even then it may not come to be.  For Dios to be a prince Anthy must be ignored, or a become a witch.  Other characters such as Ruka and Juri fall for this also, in the form of their love triangle with Shiori -for one couple to be happy one must be left out- it causes Juri to spurn the duels and for Ruka to try to use them to his advantage.  The other characters seek it as well, happiness without sacrifice, and while there is a such thing the duels were not the answer, Akio never believed or intended them to be.  He mentions himself that perseverance alone is never enough, but he's proven wrong when Utena's perseverance, which in and of itself was part of the revolution, frees Anthy because it meant something to her.  Real life victims of abuse need more than just sacrifice as well, in fact it isn't always necessary and its usually unwanted, they need someone to care about, know and invest in them as people and not solely as victims, especially considering how complicated many of these men and women's situations are in and outside of the abuse and yet are met with simplistic advice to simply leave their abusers and find a shelter and value themselves.   Ikuhara has mentioned adolescents issues with being unable to imagine ways in which to gain happiness outside of pre-laid paths. They choose success but sacrifice their real desires and he wanted SKU to address that.  That sacrifice isn't always necessary, that pain must not always balance out pleasure, that sometimes just being there for someone is enough to 'save' them.  That you can be feminine and still protect your loved ones.

I always took Rhy's explanation for whom the swords target, which fits into this theory.  The swords seek out anyone who defies their role (their archetype or of course their gender role) or the demands of society -they are after all the swords of human hatred, and humans have a lengthy history of persecuting what is different.  The men in flashback at first intend to kill Dios for failing at his role, that of the Prince when he succumbs to his weariness.  But when Anthy attempts to protect him she defies her role as a Princess, as a docile little girl, possibly even as a 'pure' virgin woman (if one believes she took Dios' power by taking from him his sexual innocence, innocence being tied with power in the series as it allows one to blindly follow their convictions) and thus to understand her they re-label her a Witch and attack her.  Then Utena cares about and tries to help her, which is a no no because as has been said, no one saves witches just as no one saves princes.  She defies the role they gave Anthy and the role of a prince, which earns her their attention.  She became a revolutionary.  She changed the social order.   There is no archetypical fairy tale equivalent to re-cast her as.

Think about it this way, if SKU was all about how Utena defied social convention to become a Prince then all that is claiming is that Princeliness is the ideal for anyone, man or woman and it treats femininity as an obstacle or a hindrance that must be overcome.  You can be a Prince even if you are a girl!  You can be a tough, masculine whathaveyou even if you are a girl!  The value of women being Princes (or masculine) is thus explored and not the converse, the value of men being Princesses (feminine). That the men's role in this equation is desirable while the woman's (Princess) is not.  Prince-hood should be sought and at the very least Princess-hood escaped from.   It's like saying that a woman is strong because she is masculine, or masculine and feminine both, but never just for being feminine.   That power, strength and protectiveness are always male (Princelike) characteristics, even when possessed by a woman.  I really can't believe a show as progressive as SKU would buy into that dichotomy.  SKU shows how both roles are utter crap, both ways of controlling people based on their sex.   At the end of the series Utena embraces both her masculinity and her femininity despite being told throughout the series that to have one was to be without the other, she can't be a Prince and love one as well (that sacrifice fallacy again), or that one was more favorable than the other (Prince's are described as noble and powerful, Princesses as weak and even manipulative).  She breaks free of that fallacy by shunning the rules of the argument altogether, no longer caring what she was, Prince or Princess, man or woman, only that Anthy made her happy and she wanted to help her.

The thing is, I can believe that Utena can do all this and not get that she actually did that, because she saw Anthy fall and may have believed she was too late, that she needed to be a Prince, or a man, after all and that she was wrong.  That even if her way worked, it took too long and that maybe just being a Prince, an effective Prince, and just white knighting her would have been for the best, which she could have never done anyway because she is female.  Hence her apology for pretending to be a Prince.   So I can see that angle, even though I personally took her statement before the swords fell as her apologizing for spending so much time preoccupied with being a Prince up until that point and not with being a friend, which if she had realized sooner may have prevented the tragedy she just thought she saw. 

Anthy is going to find her and fill her in, let her know what she has done for the both of them and what she has defied.   Because it's Anthy's turn to help her.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (05-29-2012 11:19:47 PM)

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#18 | Back to Top05-30-2012 06:43:19 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

Hi only in this light:

edited to add:

I'm actually of the notion that Utena did not sacrifice herself, or that if she did, that sacrifice is not what 'saved' Anthy.

Being that Ikuhara LOVES to have his heros/heroine go through various acts of self sacrifice (watch Penguindrum and you'll see what I mean), i'm pretty sure that Utena did self-sacrificed; I agree, though, that it's her still willing to help even after the backstabbing that ultimately saved Anthy.

Anthy is going to find her and fill her in, let her know what she has done for the both of them and what she has defied.   Because it's Anthy's turn to help her.

Word. I believe this too.  But being that it was at least a month or two before that will happen (ep 39 shadow-talk), and the ending sequence with Anthy travelling the land implies that even she cannot immediately find Utena, but has to go through a LONG journey to do so.  I can see that by the time of their reunion, which could take years, Utena would've already sustained some deep of damage from the swords (the ones that Anthy begged her to escape from in their final scene together, posing real dangers to anyone).  It will be a tough, complicated process for sure: lots of post-series fanfics already created possibilities playing around with this idea; mine - with Utena's womanhood destroyed and Anthy trying to help her regain it after finding her - falls in this catagory, using a possibility I don't think other fanfic writers had used before. 

Long post on female-mannered chars coming right up below:

That the men's role in this equation is desirable while the woman's (Princess) is not.  Prince-hood should be sought and at the very least Princess-hood escaped from.   It's like saying that a woman is strong because she is masculine, or masculine and feminine both, but never just for being feminine.

You know, that is how that show come across for me back in my younger days.  I was irked by how tomboy-mannered Utena and gallant Juri are desired by all the girls, and even some boys, but then all the more delicately, femininely, and or sultrily mannered females are messed up/weak/bad in some way or another: from as young as princess Nanami, to girly but "special" obssessed Wakaba, to delicate but inferior-plagued (which morphs into superior-plagued at every given opportunity) Shiori, to lady-like but petty/weak Kanae, to sultry but amoral Mrs. Ohtori. Like . . . . NO female who act in feminine manners are depicted in SKU under a positive light at all!

That power, strength and protectiveness are always male (Princelike) characteristics, even when possessed by a woman.  I really can't believe a show as progressive as SKU would buy into that dichotomy.

SKU shows how both roles are utter crap, both ways of controlling people based on their sex.

It is only with Juri seen stumbling that I see even the tomboy role might be depicted as utter crap. Then Utena was shown to "Fall" by her acting feminine around Akio (to the point that other chars are alarmed by her change and knowing it will bring misfortune) and I was like WTF again. 

There is almost no positive female-mannered role model in SKU.  Tokiko was the one who comes the closest to being one, with her bringing Mikage out of his robotic shell and being a loving sister; however, she soon fall into Akio's clutches and thus was used as catalyst to drive Mikage into despair.

Eventually, I discovered how it was Anthy in her final scene of leaving Ohtori in a strong but LADY-LIKE manner, that showed the first and only POSITVE female-mannered role model of the show - one that could not be born without Tomboy Utena befriending/loving her till the very end.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (05-30-2012 12:23:02 PM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#19 | Back to Top05-30-2012 11:16:51 AM

allegoriest
Delicious Duellist
From: Cloudcuckooland
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2506
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Hi Allegoriest:

If she did have a sex change, AKIO WINS

Two words: Million Swords.
What's a 14 yr old's chance against that, regardless of how tough, noble she is?

I really have no idea what exactly you're getting at here.


Regardless, if Ikuhara made a sequel and Utena turned into a man, I'd watch maybe the first ep and never turn it back on. :/  It really kinda goes against the entire theme/spirit of the whole thing and I'd be all, no, this is in no way the same show.


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#20 | Back to Top05-30-2012 11:56:18 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1318
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

Hi Allegoriest:

you wrote

(my words) What's a 14 yr old's chance against that, regardless of how tough, noble she is?

I really have no idea what exactly you're getting at here.

emot-aaa

I'm pointing out what's in the series textually (like I've been doing in the last couple posts): that the swords are dangerous and can do damage to Utena (or else Anthy need not have begged Utena to leave her and escape them in ep39):
(Anthy:  You mustn't! Hurry and run away! The swords are...
Utena:  Take my hand! Come on, Himemiya!
Anthy:  You don't understand! If you don't run quickly...)
Then Anthy fell, Utena said she failed and then got rushed by swords in the show, thus it becomes logical that she'd sustain mental and/or physical damages afterwards.  In my fic, the damage is that the swords torment Utena and got her to destroy her own already shaky womanhood, thus how it's up to Anthy to help her/re-revolutionize her so Utena may "be herself" again. 

Utena helped Anthy in the series, and the show ended at the point where Utena succumbed to self-sacrifice after Anthy was revolutionized; now, my fic continues the story with the possibility - not "must be" - that the freed Anthy found Utena a little too late (HRT happened already), and must now try very hard to help Utena back, thus the SKU tale about friends/lovers helping each other can come full circle.

And there's what I've already written before too:

My view on the point of the show is that Utena helped Anthy win against Akio with friendship, that even a supreme victim/passive-aggressive like Anthy can be saved if people care about her; the swords rushing Utena at the end showed the help she gave is an act of self-sacrifice - an act that can accomplish even what most people think are impossible.

In my thinking, Anthy going after Utena after the series to save her - like the girl prince once saved the witch - thus bringing things into FULL CIRCLE via the glorious theme of reciprocating love; that's what makes the show great for me.

That's my take of the theme/spirit of the show.

I never said that Utena will definitely become a trans man post show: I'm saying that's a possibility (as in the thread title); with the swords rushing her being canon -leading to presumably unfortunate results ala that Anthy fears for Utena in ep 39 - Utena will be in some PLIGHT or another after the show, and I picked sex-change from out of the many possibilities, cause Utena's ongoing troubles with gender role is such a huge part of the series' canon; that's all I'm saying.

P.S. how do you like Seinen's poster (a few posts up in this thread)?  Is it "glorious" enough for your taste? emot-wink


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#21 | Back to Top05-30-2012 01:15:20 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Being that Ikuhara LOVES to have his heros/heroine go through various acts of self sacrifice (watch Penguindrum and you'll see what I mean), i'm pretty sure that Utena did self-sacrificed; I agree, though, that it's her still willing to help even after the backstabbing that ultimately saved Anthy.

Hrm, we may actually only be differing on the intention behind Utena's actions and the consequences she faced.  While I find it very very plausible, I did not see Utena intentionally sacrificing herself, as in, willingly taking the swords in Anthy's place or doing what she did knowing that would be the result.  She stood up and worked through the pain of her injury, which is no small feat, but I don't think she consciously thought as she did so that she was going to die in order to save Anthy, which is kinda irrelevant because what befell her was the swords, not death.  She had no intention when she stood and crossed the bridge of taking the swords for Anthy, only to get Anthy away from them.  There's also the small hanging detail that sacrifice not only implies a level of knowing and intent, but the belief that giving such a X sacrifice will result in Y.  The swords hit Utena after Anthy plummeted, so I can't imagine her seeing (hearing) their approach as a sign that she's taken them instead of Anthy.  To Utena, it was the inevitable side affect of failure, a risk she took, but not a sacrifice given to save her friend.  When Anthy warns Utena of the swords it may not have been a warning that Utena was risking taking her place underneath them, but that the swords were coming for herself and since Utena was in the way, they were both going to be skewered.  Utena keeps her arm outstretched because she does not believe that will happen, and that Anthy will take her hand, not because she feels that the swords will be blocked by her body. 

But I still find it believable the other way around, I just don't care for what a self-sacrifice on Utena's part does in regards to the deep down optimistic themes running throughout Utena and more to the actual point of this thread I am not educated formally or personally enough with the motivations and experiences of trans, cross dressing or non gendered peoples, so I can't really lob an opinion on whether or not any amount of trauma or mind fuckery could cause a person to shun their own gender or no longer identify with it, aside from perhaps really horrific child abuse.  It may get too close to "transexualism/cross dressing is the result of trauma, not a legitimate expression of a person's gender identity or a harmless lifestyle" territory, so its best tread with caution and LOADS of research.

You know, that is how that show come across for me back in my younger days.  I was irked by how tomboy-mannered Utena and gallant Juri are desired by all the girls, and even some boys, but then all the more delicately, femininely, and or sultrily mannered females are messed up/weak/bad in some way or another: from as young as princess Nanami, to girly but "special" obssessed Wakaba, to delicate but inferior-plagued (which morphs into superior-plagued at every given opportunity) Shiori, to lady-like but petty/weak Kanae, to sultry but amoral Mrs. Ohtori. Like . . . . NO female who act in feminine manners are depicted in SKU under a positive light at all!

It is only with Juri seen stumbling that I see even the tomboy role might be depicted as utter crap. Then Utena was shown to "Fall" by her acting feminine around Akio (to the point that other chars are alarmed by her change and knowing it will bring misfortune) and I was like WTF again. 

There is almost no positive female-mannered role model in SKU.  Tokiko was the one who comes the closest to being one, with her bringing Mikage out of his robotic shell and being a loving sister; however, she soon fall into Akio's clutches and thus was used as catalyst to drive Mikage into despair.

Well, part of that is because no adults are portrayed positively in SKU, and mostly because none of the non-adult characters, at the time the series takes place, are positive characters.  The gender roles they are assigned, how much they relate to them and struggle or defy them do their part to shape their individual selfishness, weaknesses, aggression and what have you, but the general immature, negative and not at all role-model material of all the cast with the notable exception of Utena and Post Revolution Anthy is true for both the male and female cast members.  (Heck, even Mitsuru and Tatsuya have their creepier undervibes at times.)

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#22 | Back to Top05-30-2012 01:35:38 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1318
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

Hi only in this light:

It may get too close to "transexualism/cross dressing is the result of trauma, not a legitimate expression of a person's gender identity or a harmless lifestyle" territory, so its best tread with caution and LOADS of research.

I've been warned of this danger (of being misinterpreted) by Lurv (who posted upthread).  But this danger will only happen to people who are automatically turned off/angered just from the suggested premise of Seinen Kakumei alone (http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=3026): like I've also posted up-thread, the case between an a real life trans man and sword forced-trans Utena really is significantly different enough that I don't think people who ACTUALLY read the fic will make this mistake.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#23 | Back to Top05-30-2012 02:06:04 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Hi only in this light:

It may get too close to "transexualism/cross dressing is the result of trauma, not a legitimate expression of a person's gender identity or a harmless lifestyle" territory, so its best tread with caution and LOADS of research.

I've been warned of this danger (of being misinterpreted) by Lurv (who posted upthread).  But this danger will only happen to people who are automatically turned off/angered just from the suggested premise of Seinen Kakumei alone (http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=3026): like I've also posted up-thread, the case between an a real life trans man and sword forced-trans Utena really is significantly different enough that I don't think people who ACTUALLY read the fic will make this mistake.

Well, it is a very complicated, subjective and sensitive subject.  Don't go into writing about it assuming that your unique presentation of the issue or that fact that it is fan-fiction/fiction/anime isolates it from any real world connotations, especially as these are oft used as excuses to veil abusive content and Trans persons especially may be sensitive to such a defense, having heard it along with cries to stop being so sensitive and reactive when they speak out against troubling content concerning them.  Writing is meant to be related to. Everyone, even the best intended, can make mistakes, hurt feelings and spread negative messages.  If you write with the assumption that your set up and ideas concerning these topics are so air-tight or removed from the real world that any person who disagrees or takes issue with how something is described out of concern for Trans persons is themselves just a hypocrite/wrong, then you are putting yourself in a place where you may not only intentionally hurt others, but not be able to realize it or take any criticism for it.  I would seriously recommend, if you already haven't, discussing your story and ideas with actual trans and cross dressing persons (there may be some on this forum) and seeking unfiltered criticism not for the sake of countering or supporting your ideas but to at least make sure you are presenting them in a way that doesn't offend or hurt these persons or unintentionally spread stereotypes.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (05-30-2012 02:08:07 PM)

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#24 | Back to Top05-30-2012 04:49:22 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1318
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

Hi, Only in this Light:

I would seriously recommend, if you already haven't, discussing your story and ideas with actual trans and cross dressing persons (there may be some on this forum) and seeking unfiltered criticism not for the sake of countering or supporting your ideas but to at least make sure you are presenting them in a way that doesn't offend or hurt these persons or unintentionally spread stereotypes.

But I don't personally know any trans person in real life, nor do I know which members on this forum are trans persons.  So far, there's been like 3 people on this forum's fic thread and 2 people on fanfiction.net that has been reviewers of this fic (some among these are repeated reviewers), along with two dozen or so one time C&C-ers I get from email (since I posted it on blogspot with undisguised email).  So far, nobody who read the fic (and bothered to write review) had anything negative to say about it . . . yet. 

It's only until I started this thread asking about the Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series that I get you, along with Lurv, expressing this concern about how the fic might hurt trans people's feelings. 

Then again, Seinen is MAINLY about people helping each other to overcome adult life obstacles/problems, and the weight between the main cast are pretty even: in 1-4, Utena's part is not a lot bigger than say, Juri's (model/aspiring designer struggling with weight and lack of funding to launch label), Shiori's (second-rate stylist reliant on Juri), or even Kozue's (has been singer/drug addict); Anthy (who made the duelists again come together to help Utena) definitely is more prominently featured so far: Touga and Saionji's parts are coming up in part 5.

So. . . if it's okay, would you mind reading/reviewing it?  The fic is only over at http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=3026
where you can also see what other readers have been saying about it so far.

I mean seriously, it's hard for Utena fics to get reviews, especially now that FFML and the likes are no longer in function, and I have no where to turn to for pre-readers.

I don't mind if you point out the story's flaws (I mean beyond the grammatical ones: I know I must have them having to rush to put out the parts since I won't have time to finish the fic otherwise), or whether it'd have hurtful content against specific groups.  Or, if you don't mind, can you refer some trans member on this board to give "unfiltered" C&C of my fic for me?  If I have to make changes, it's easier to do it earlier than later.

You know, if I have to draw real life parallels, what happend to Utena in my fic is a bit like some of the OZ (prison drama from years ago)  episodes, where a straight male goes to prison, and was raped and went through "forced feminization" (made to wear dress, made to take female hormones) by malicious inmates.  Is that kind of story, often seen in prison drama on US TV, hurtful to regular trans people and thus should not be shown?


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#25 | Back to Top05-30-2012 06:44:16 PM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
Website

Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

You know, if I have to draw real life parallels, what happend to Utena in my fic is a bit like some of the OZ (prison drama from years ago)  episodes, where a straight male goes to prison, and was raped and went through "forced feminization" (made to wear dress, made to take female hormones) by malicious inmates.  Is that kind of story, often seen in prison drama on US TV, hurtful to regular trans people and thus should not be shown?

There's a fine line between "should not be shown" and "could be considered hurtful." Are stories featuring rape hurtful to rape victims? Potentially, yes. Should all stories involving rape therefore not be shown? That depends entirely on the context of how and why it is being included in the story. It can serve a myriad of purposes, such as an examination of the human condition, but it can be used in a much more sinister or sensationalized way as well.

I'm not judging your story either way, mind you, I just think that's what OITL was cautioning of when she suggested getting input from trans persons.

Last edited by Ashnod (05-30-2012 06:47:52 PM)


Flowers without names blooming in the field can only sway in the wind. But I was born with a destiny of roses, born to live in passion and glory.

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