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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top09-01-2011 11:02:55 PM

artemis88
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 05-05-2011
Posts: 66

spoilery question

when Anthy stabbed Utena in the back, she had lost all hope and resigned herself to her fate/unending suffering, right?

It made me think of what Dios said to Utena as a child ("I envy those who can die.. She has to live on in eternal agony.."

So when Himemiya stabbed Utena, did she feel she was at least saving her from Akio (knowing all too well herself the horrors of being Akio's hell-princess)? Was there a twisted compassion to it or had she just abandoned all hope?

Forgive me if I sound really dumb, I've only just watched episode 39 after a long while of putting it off (I didn't want the series to end.. I still wish it were longer..)

Utena will always be my hero. I'm still reeling. What an incredible work of art this series is. And in my heart I know Utena and Anthy must meet again..

Last edited by artemis88 (09-01-2011 11:05:51 PM)

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#2 | Back to Top09-01-2011 11:43:13 PM

spoon-san
Someday Shiner
Registered: 03-18-2009
Posts: 3423

Re: spoilery question

I initially took the stance that Anthy truly does care for Utena and intended to spare Utena from the swords which would have went after her as soon as she came out victor and as the prince.  I think the deed was done with complex and clashing intentions...revenge, contempt, love, protection, and so forth...aside from also being Akio's puppet so long as she was the Rose Bride.  But yeah, I would say Anthy had intentions of protecting Utena.  One sword to the back compared to a million swords impaling her every inch of skin, right?

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#3 | Back to Top09-01-2011 11:54:45 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: spoilery question

Pictures for reference:

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/16474-1/Series_ep38_294.jpg

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/16476-1/Series_ep38_295.jpg

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/16478-1/Series_ep38_296.jpg

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/16482-1/Series_ep38_298.jpg

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/16484-1/Series_ep38_299.jpg

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/16486-1/Series_ep38_300.jpg

I'm not the body language expert, but I don't see protectiveness.  I see hopelessness, yearning, helplessness, love, resentment, and a hint of malice.

artemis88 wrote:

Utena will always be my hero. I'm still reeling. What an incredible work of art this series is. And in my heart I know Utena and Anthy must meet again..

Trufax.  etc-love

Last edited by satyreyes (09-01-2011 11:57:10 PM)

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#4 | Back to Top09-02-2011 06:55:40 AM

CoffinBreaker
Rose Bride
From: Here and Now
Registered: 10-28-2010
Posts: 117

Re: spoilery question

I always noticed just this slight instance of remorse in her face...(it doesn't show that well in the screenshots =w=;) Call me a pessimist, but it seemed to me Anthy's intentions here were more out of fear than anything. Granted, she likes Utena on some level, and is aware that she could save her, but she's at the point where she's too afraid of being saved. So rather than face the unknown she cuts her down instead.

(Of course, all this is rectified later but still.)


You don't need to understand Revolutionary Girl Utena to understand it.

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#5 | Back to Top09-02-2011 08:51:47 AM

KaleMarsh
High Tripper
From: Washington, DC
Registered: 06-13-2011
Posts: 245

Re: spoilery question

The difference I notice from the screen shots is that when she's showing her resigned sad face and love, she's facing Utena's back.  The malice always gets me because she's staring at the audience.  It's almost a big fuck you to society and the world.  As if to say "you made me do this."  Chills.

As to her intentions toward Utena, Anthy plays the victim until the very end.  "I'm sorry, but I have to do this for him because I can't be an agent in my own story, and his hold over me is still stronger."  I don't think she's trying to save Utena from the swords so much as she's still making Akio's points (terrible pun) for him.

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#6 | Back to Top09-02-2011 10:34:18 AM

Atomic Lightbulb
Miki Molester
Registered: 01-03-2011
Posts: 35
Website

Re: spoilery question

I took a few extra screenshots to better show Anthy's fear turned resignation.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2hxvcx3.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/2isd0fp.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/fml01v.jpg

And this shot -

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/16486-1/Series_ep38_300.jpg

- when referenced with this shot from the first ending.

http://i52.tinypic.com/fcmvj8.jpg

Am I the only one who saw just a hint of possessiveness in that malice?

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#7 | Back to Top09-02-2011 11:48:52 AM

KaleMarsh
High Tripper
From: Washington, DC
Registered: 06-13-2011
Posts: 245

Re: spoilery question

Nice eye on the ending animation.  I missed it.  If I didn't see possessiveness before, I do now.  I'm not sure how much it changes my interpretation, but it's still cool.

(This is probably a terrible thread to bring this up, but Anthy looks pretty damn cute sometimes, doesn't she?)

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#8 | Back to Top09-02-2011 12:57:18 PM

artemis88
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 05-05-2011
Posts: 66

Re: spoilery question

KaleMarsh wrote:

Nice eye on the ending animation.  I missed it.  If I didn't see possessiveness before, I do now.  I'm not sure how much it changes my interpretation, but it's still cool.

(This is probably a terrible thread to bring this up, but Anthy looks pretty damn cute sometimes, doesn't she?)

I love Anthy, she does look cute sometimes.

is it bad that I don't see the malice in her expression, just her fear, resignation, and love for Utena..?

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#9 | Back to Top09-02-2011 12:58:35 PM

artemis88
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 05-05-2011
Posts: 66

Re: spoilery question

spoon-san wrote:

I initially took the stance that Anthy truly does care for Utena and intended to spare Utena from the swords which would have went after her as soon as she came out victor and as the prince.  I think the deed was done with complex and clashing intentions...revenge, contempt, love, protection, and so forth...aside from also being Akio's puppet so long as she was the Rose Bride.  But yeah, I would say Anthy had intentions of protecting Utena.  One sword to the back compared to a million swords impaling her every inch of skin, right?

exactly, that's what I was trying to say x)

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#10 | Back to Top09-08-2011 10:55:25 AM

gumi
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 06-11-2010
Posts: 10

Re: spoilery question

I don't think Anthy wanted to save Utena from the million swords of hate by stabbing her. Why?
Well, Anthy, as it was implied, knows that leaving this world - Akio's world - is really, the best thing for any individual living there. So if she had really wanted to save Utena I don't think she would have stabbed her like that, left her to just watch the whole ceremonial and then got back to being a mindless doll and acting like nothing really happened.
I'm pretty sure that if Utena didn't get up, crawled up to the Rose Gate and opened it, after the whole ceremonial, everything would just get back to normal - and Utena would probably turn into next Juri due to the pain and shock of being betrayed.
I think that it was quite clear that she wanted (at least at one point of time) to make Utena leave Ohtori. She must have knew (judging from her reaction when Utena opened the coffin) that anyone stabbed by million swords of hate would disappear from Ohtori (something made even clearer in the drama based on the manga version). She even seemed really happy to know that Utena is there somewhere in the real world and she just has to find her.

So why did she tried to prevent Utena from leaving the damned Ohtori and actually getting released from that "hell", by stabbing her?

That said, I choose to believe she did it mostly out of hopelessness and malice

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#11 | Back to Top10-26-2011 11:11:51 PM

Rotten Mooring
Precious One
Registered: 10-26-2011
Posts: 281

Re: spoilery question

I think, at that point, Anthy believed that Utena wasn't going to win and she was angry with her for it. Angry with Utena for getting her hopes up. Utena wasn't going to win against Akio (it certainly didn't look that way then) so Anthy ended the duel herself, quickly and efficiently. So yeah, hopelessness and anger is what I get outta that scene. If Anthy's hesitant or remorseful, it's because she doesn't want to hurt Utena, as contrary as that sounds~

It's possible that it was the humane thing to do compared to leaving Utena to Akio. I don't think Utena was going to be doomed to the swords though (this based solely off the anime-verse) because it was pretty clearly stated that it was the Rose Bride's job to take the swords in place of the prince. Utena may not have won the duel, but she hadn't succumbed to being Akio's princess yet either.

I'm pretty sure that if Utena didn't get up, crawled up to the Rose Gate and opened it, after the whole ceremonial, everything would just get back to normal - and Utena would probably turn into next Juri due to the pain and shock of being betrayed.

... or the next Saionji.

Who knows? Maybe she would end up taking Mikage's place.

Forgive me if I sound really dumb, I've only just watched episode 39 after a long while of putting it off (I didn't want the series to end.. I still wish it were longer..)

I find that the best cure for running out of episodes is turning around and watching them again cool. The beauty of a multi-layered, heavily symbolic show like this is that it bears multiple viewings. In fact, I recommend it, if for no other reason than that you'll see things on the second viewing that you missed on the first go-round emot-wink

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#12 | Back to Top08-04-2015 11:21:59 PM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 506

Re: spoilery question

I think its time for me to be dubbed Thread Necromancer because i'm really digging in here guys. school-sherlock (APOLOGIES THAT THIS IS AN ESSAY IN LENGTH)

Okay... so i've pulled up the episode (38) and I'm going step by step what has happened here.

I'm starting right as the "duel" itself begins. So Utena and Akio are clashing swords.

Here are my notes from the scene leading up to this. I've bolded the points in the scene which i think are critical, but feel free to skip this section. I am using the video here at about 17 minutes and 30ish seconds onward.:

===================SCENE DESCRIPTION, FEEL FREE TO SKIP===================

Utena and Akio are clashing, as Akio is explaining his ideals, beliefs, and how Utena was "play" dueling the whole time. The camera pans back to Anthy... Anthy looks.... apathetic? sad? disconnected? my first read is she looks sad. her eyes aren't fully open, and she is expressionless.

Akio then comments that a child doesn't know the value of the room. Then we get the recap fights of showing how Utena's old moves aren't working on this guy. No flips, no BRS stuff, no cars flying around. Akio is showing his control.

Utena says "all this room does is torment himemiya"
Akio says "she's doing this of her own free will, don't interfere!"

Anthy is now sitting across the couch that i presume she's been doing brother and sisterly things with Akio on.

Camera zooms in to her face which again looks disconnected then says in flashback voice "i'm the rose bride, i belong to you" quickly followed by Anthy saying while laying down on the bed facing utena, "the truth is i..." quickly change to suicide scene -- anthy saying she's sorry.

Camera focuses back on Utena as she's thinking through these things then she says, "I will free her from you" Akio says, "do you know what that means?" Utena then knocks Akio back forcefully and she says, "I DO know what that means, I will become a prince!"


boom bang earth shatter crash Dios statue/sphere thing starts breaking up into pieces. The planetarium device starts freaking out... (can't handle what Utena said? Is she revolutionizing via thought? whats going on here, separate thread, another day) Castle crumbles.

Anthy stands up from couch and looks up at the castle crashing. Akio looks shocked and confused. He glances at Utena just as she leaps towards him to make a powerful strike. Anthy begins walking (BEFORE UTENA MAKES CONTACT) she is walking towards Utena and Akio fighting. Her eyes are wide open, but she staggerdly (is that a word... squiggly red line says no) walks toward the fight (Behind Akio) ... looking like she is dazed.

Utena starts kicking Akio's ASS. he's falling on the floor, she's swinging. She's got this. She's going to win. Camera pans back to Anthy, her eyes are wide open and alert now. Utena is confident, Akio is sweating. Anthy's eyes open more... the pupils get smaller. (She's made a realization?)

The planetarium stops freaking out. Akio gasps and continues stepping back towards Anthy.

Utena is making a full stabbing charge toward Akio when he grabs Anthy... again her eyes wide open... and shoves her into the charging Utena. Utena stops and catches Anthy. Utena puts Anthy behind her and throws an arm up signifying that she's going to protect her.


Anthy's face looks wide eyed and staring at Akio with her hand on Utena's back. Standoff scene happens....

[see pictures previously in thread [[at least the not-ded ones]] and Anthy's face looks concerned? sad? remorseful? something? She pulls away slightly, slowly lowers her eyes and looks slightly sad? then leans in close again grabbing Utena's shoulder closes her eyes and slowly pushes the sword into Utena's back. Is she kissing her shoulder? is she resting her face against her shoulder? Cant say the lil' pauldron(spelling?) guy is in the way... definitely her face is making contact w/ utena somehow.  She stabs her and drops her to the floor...

===================END SCENE DESCRIPTION, BACK TO RAMBLES===================

Anthy being angry doesn't jive with me. Anthy stood up and started walking towards the duel. Why? Did her brother summon her? or did she walk over on her own accord? In my eyes, Utena was going to win -- she was going to have his head and it was over. Was Anthy worried for her brother? Did she want to help him again because his life was in danger? Anthy's attitude changed when Utena started pushing into Akio. Maybe Anthy was going over for another reason? Akio shoves the somewhat shocked looking Anthy into Utena. Is he controlling her? Is she fighting with that? Is that the hesitation we are seeing here?

I've asked a ton of questions, but let me pull out the facts:

1) Anthy started walking towards fight
2) Akio was retreating towards Anthy
3) Akio shoves Anthy into Utena
4) Utena catches Anthy and places herself between them to protect her
5) Anthy stabs Utena
((6) KFAR cries for an hour because, god damn this show so good))
7) Utena asks why
8) Anthy opens her eyes halfway
9) Anthy shoves that sword real hard through Utena

So -- i came here from the SKU catalogue which was what is Anthy feeling before she stabs Utena?

Confusion? Concern? Sadness? See my questions above.

When i was young and na´ve, on my first watch, I would have told you Akio is controlling her and forcing her to do this... but then you watch the next episode and Anthy talks about how Utena reminds her of the Dios she used to love, but that Utena couldn't ever become the prince because she's a girl. She yanks out the sword and throws it away. Picks up Utena's sword and looks real sad and hesitant again.


Anthy throwing the sword away looks to me like she didn't really wanna do it... but I just can't peg it down. If you *mean* to stab someone you aren't just going to fling it away, right? Maybe she was disappointed?

I'm going to pause here to see if anyone wants to add to this before going down more rabbit holes.

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#13 | Back to Top08-19-2015 09:01:09 AM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 506

Re: spoilery question

KissFromARose wrote:

Utena starts kicking Akio's ASS.

So I was listening to the dueling music for the final battle (named: Tainai Tokei Toshi Oruroi) and guess when the "BOON BOON KINKONKAN" (bell ringing sound in japanese) happens........ you guessed it, when Utena starts whipping up on Akio. Is it a direct line to the bells ringing after the "play" duels are over? -- just a thought, had to put it down somewhere!

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#14 | Back to Top10-14-2015 07:44:06 PM

Rikoshi
Wakaba Wrangler
From: Santa Clara, CA
Registered: 10-12-2015
Posts: 13
Website

Re: spoilery question

My read on this scene is that the whole idea of getting the winning duelist to the "Revolution" duel is solely so that Akio can take that duelist's heart sword (or whatever you want to call it) and see if it's capable of breaking through the Rose Gate, and I think part of the reason the other duels are a 'game' (involving nominally non-lethal combat) is to ensure that the victor doesn't actually stand a chance of beating Akio in an actual sword fight.

Akio and Anthy's whole plan, I think, is to get a victor with enough strength of conviction to produce a sword capable of breaking through the Rose Gate, but Utena's conviction proves to be too strong. The statue of Dios explodes, the planetarium projector freaks out, and the castle comes crashing down; Utena is all too close to bringing down Akio's entire world and ruining the plan (and she's finally starting to actually win the fight she's not supposed to win).

So Anthy sticks with the plan, which is to make sure that Utena loses and Akio gets the sword; that's what their whole scheme has been building towards, and in the heat of the moment, Anthy decides to go for the 'safe' route (in her mind) of siding with Akio, under the assumption that Utena can't possibly be the one to save her.

Also, keep in mind that Anthy uses Akio's sword to do the deed; I think the inference there is that he deliberately hands off the sword to her before shoving her into Utena knowing (or at least hoping) she'll do exactly what she did.

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#15 | Back to Top10-15-2015 04:25:16 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: spoilery question

Rikoshi wrote:

...but Utena's conviction proves to be too strong...

You know what's funny about that...I could never quite see it that way.  From the very first time I saw the show it seemed like Utena lost.  A day or so later I came to feel that she won through losing, but still.

I mean, she gets stabbed.  Her sword snaps off on the door.  If that's her conviction (which I agree is one of the things it is), her conviction broke.  She laid on the ground and cried, begging Akio to help Anthy. 

That's not being strong and noble, that's being beaten.

It's actually the fact that all this occurs that makes her standing back up important.  You could say that she was only down temporarily and recovered, but in a way, that's not what it looks like.  She doesn't get back up fighting the same old fight as the same old Utena.  She gets back up different, more vulnerable, more bitter.  But, unlike Akio and Anthy herself, she doesn't get back up cruel.

I still think that even at the last moment Utena thought she'd lost.  She just did what she had to, anyway, because she's not the sort to shrug off the suffering of others, even if that person has hurt her.  Don't think she had deliberate plans to inspire Anthy to leave--there's not much reason Utena would have had faith that Utena's sincerity would move Anthy.  I think she was still trying to "save" Anthy, just through an emotional appeal instead of with a sword.

It's a lot to read into a couple of minutes and a couple of lines, sure, but that's what I see.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (10-15-2015 04:38:23 PM)


http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/absolethe/itrg_signature.jpg

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#16 | Back to Top10-15-2015 04:57:49 PM

Rikoshi
Wakaba Wrangler
From: Santa Clara, CA
Registered: 10-12-2015
Posts: 13
Website

Re: spoilery question

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Rikoshi wrote:

...but Utena's conviction proves to be too strong...

You know what's funny about that...I could never quite see it that way.  From the very first time I saw the show it seemed like Utena lost.  A day or so later I came to feel that she won through losing, but still.

I mean, she gets stabbed.  Her sword snaps off on the door.  If that's her conviction (which I agree is one of the things it is), her conviction broke.  She laid on the ground and cried, begging Akio to help Anthy. 

That's not being strong and noble, that's being beaten.

Oh, no, absolutely her princely convictions are beaten by the time she's been stabbed in the back by Anthy, no question there; my read, however, is that if Anthy hadn't interfered, Utena would have beaten Akio through the power of her convictions to be a prince--which, of course, makes her no better than Akio, insisting on being the heroic prince who's out to save the helpless damsel in distress (and while I've no doubt Utena would be a noble and selfless prince to start, if Dios can be corrupted into Akio, the same or worse would almost certainly come to Utena, who, while courageous and well-intentioned, is still extremely naive).

It's actually the fact that all this occurs that makes her standing back up important.  You could say that she was only down temporarily and recovered, but in a way, that's not what it looks like.  She doesn't get back up fighting the same old fight as the same old Utena.  She gets back up different, more vulnerable, more bitter.  But, unlike Akio and Anthy herself, she doesn't get back up cruel.

Agreed 100%. The fact that we see the specter of Dios walk away without ever looking back is a great bit of imagery; Utena is no longer attempting to emulate the man who went on to become Akio and cause his sister to suffer so much. After getting back up, her priorities shift; she's not trying to beat Akio in a fight, but rather trying to reach out to help a friend in need. It's such a powerful, personal transformation, and that whole last episode gives me chills.

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#17 | Back to Top10-15-2015 05:57:26 PM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: spoilery question

Rikoshi wrote:

Oh, no, absolutely her princely convictions are beaten by the time she's been stabbed in the back by Anthy, no question there; my read, however, is that if Anthy hadn't interfered, Utena would have beaten Akio through the power of her convictions to be a prince--which, of course, makes her no better than Akio, insisting on being the heroic prince who's out to save the helpless damsel in distress (and while I've no doubt Utena would be a noble and selfless prince to start, if Dios can be corrupted into Akio, the same or worse would almost certainly come to Utena, who, while courageous and well-intentioned, is still extremely naive).

I feel horrible about myself but...I'd so pay to see that, Utena descending into Akio-levels of manipulation and deceit. It would be deliciously wicked and ever so perverse. To some extent we already have Mikage as Utena's Shadow but seeing Utena herself going through such a moral decay would make my day.

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#18 | Back to Top10-19-2015 03:28:04 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: spoilery question

Nocturnalux wrote:

I feel horrible about myself but...I'd so pay to see that, Utena descending into Akio-levels of manipulation and deceit. It would be deliciously wicked and ever so perverse. To some extent we already have Mikage as Utena's Shadow but seeing Utena herself going through such a moral decay would make my day.

Oh, you terrible person. I love it.

I'm not going to enumerate reasons, but I always saw that scene as Utena finally realising that being a Prince never did Anthy any good, and that it was just another form of control over her-- and then Utena choosing, clear-eyed, to just help her friend regardless of what Anthy had done to her. Abandoning the Prince ideal and finally just reacting to Anthy without all of the roles in the way. And then when she thinks she's failed, I always felt like she was retreating to the Prince ideal because it was the only comforting thing she had left now that Anthy was 'gone'.

As always, could be totally off base. I'm reacting to the emotional content of the scene rather than the order of events etc.


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