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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top08-31-2011 11:56:08 AM

Leeg
Juri Jeerer
From: Spain
Registered: 02-10-2010
Posts: 49
Website

Coffins in the remastered edition...

Have you all watched the remastered episodes from the blackrose arc?

When we see Mikage burning the coffins, we get a glimpse of what's inside, instead of viewing a closed coffin as we saw in the normal edition of the series. And in fact it is quite symbolic... look:


What we saw in the normal edition:
http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/6094-1/Series_ep14_180.jpg

What we see now:
Kanae :
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/4867/coff0.png

Kozue :
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/748/coff1.png

Tsuwabuki :

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3774/coff2.png

Keiko :
Dead body not being shown.

Wakaba :
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/7562/coff4.png

What do you think of all this new stuff?

Last edited by Leeg (08-31-2011 01:28:49 PM)

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#2 | Back to Top08-31-2011 12:00:05 PM

wblstudios
Banned
Registered: 08-17-2011
Posts: 564

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

So they did the George Lucas thing and screwed around with the original.  Damnit.  What else did they change?

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#3 | Back to Top08-31-2011 12:49:38 PM

Leeg
Juri Jeerer
From: Spain
Registered: 02-10-2010
Posts: 49
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Well, seeing the bodies, now we know that they did not die in the fire... I think its smoke killed them, probably when they were all imprisoned

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/5730-2/Series_ep13_072.jpg

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#4 | Back to Top08-31-2011 01:28:39 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

I was wondering what happened to the two guys who were holding hands in the flashback episodes. I guess my fear was confirmed. In a very strange way.

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#5 | Back to Top08-31-2011 02:18:18 PM

thothptah
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 01-21-2010
Posts: 97

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Good eye! I noticed that the coffins were opened, but I didn't catch that they had different things in them.

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#6 | Back to Top08-31-2011 03:19:19 PM

Leeg
Juri Jeerer
From: Spain
Registered: 02-10-2010
Posts: 49
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Hiraku wrote:

I was wondering what happened to the two guys who were holding hands in the flashback episodes. I guess my fear was confirmed. In a very strange way.

I think these two guys are brothers, and twins, like Kozue and Miki (and that's why they're in the coffin in Kozue's episode), I don't really think they're related to the episode you mention.

Which is this...

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/9014-1/Series_ep22_081.jpg


I mean, if they were these two lovers, their position inside the coffin would be different, don't you think?

Last edited by Leeg (08-31-2011 03:22:01 PM)

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#7 | Back to Top08-31-2011 03:23:32 PM

codeblackhayate
When did we get pyrotechnics?
Registered: 09-30-2010
Posts: 37

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Here's one you didn't post: Shiori

http://i38.tinypic.com/30mq2c0.png

--> nabbed from post #308 of this thread http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=1117&p=13


Do they all have items?
Wakaba has the leaf pin and neatly placed shoes.
Shiori has a lily...lol.
Tsuwabuki has a book bag
Kozue has Miki with shoes crammed between them in opposing directions.
And Kanae has loneliness and rejection. No remaster item for you.


Aren't there regular student hand holding dudes in the background randomly?

Last edited by codeblackhayate (08-31-2011 03:24:58 PM)


Take my Revolution and shove it!

| SKU:PID Utena Parody |

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#8 | Back to Top08-31-2011 03:30:29 PM

Leeg
Juri Jeerer
From: Spain
Registered: 02-10-2010
Posts: 49
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

What really bugs me is Keiko's coffin, we can't see anything there... why? She's just a parasite and that's all?

And another remarkable thing is that there are only boys involved in the Revolutionary project, that reminds me to Anthy when she says:

Anthy:  But you can't become my Prince.
Anthy:  Because you're a girl.

Last edited by Leeg (08-31-2011 03:31:01 PM)

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#9 | Back to Top08-31-2011 04:52:02 PM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Shiori has a dead bird actually. I think it's interesting though, that they made the duelists in the coffin male for female duelists. It feels like an afterthought. Or maybe it's something I'm not getting?


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

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#10 | Back to Top08-31-2011 05:57:57 PM

Louchan
Rose Bride
Registered: 11-08-2006
Posts: 100

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

It might be because I'm so attached to the original version, but I really didn't like these coffin edits they did. I don't know, they're just... too obvious, I guess. And I really didn't need to see a male Wakaba and Shiori during my lifetime, thank you very much.

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#11 | Back to Top08-31-2011 09:51:53 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

MissMocha wrote:

Shiori has a dead bird actually. I think it's interesting though, that they made the duelists in the coffin male for female duelists. It feels like an afterthought. Or maybe it's something I'm not getting?

It could just be for coherency; so the viewer would not assume that Mikage was actually incinerating the dead bodies of the BR duelists, and that the bodies were only meant to be symbolic of a comparison between the duelists Nemuro killed and the BR duelists.

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#12 | Back to Top08-31-2011 10:27:41 PM

dirufacade
Ballgoer
From: Baltimore & DC
Registered: 08-03-2011
Posts: 148
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Weird.  I noticed the bodies in the coffins and at the same time wrote it off as "Hm.  Maybe I just didn't pay close enough attention the last time."

I did prefer the closed coffin. It created a creepy ambiguity -- I kind of liked not knowing for sure that the Nemoru Hall was a mausoleum until I finished the arc. 

Have there been any statements about why that change was made?


~ diru

Don't talk shit. One does not hear about Abraxas by accident.

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#13 | Back to Top08-31-2011 10:46:01 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

MissMocha wrote:

Shiori has a dead bird actually. I think it's interesting though, that they made the duelists in the coffin male for female duelists. It feels like an afterthought. Or maybe it's something I'm not getting?

I like OITL's explanation about not confusing the viewer, but do you want to know what I got out of it?  Ohtori Academy used to be an all-boys school.  I like this -- a subtle way of hammering home that Professor Nemuro lived a long time ago, when Ohtori was quite a different institution.  We could have known it was a boys' school anyway, of course, from the creepy group shot of all the dead duelists, but only when I saw the duelists in their coffins did the bell ring for me.

I agree with the consensus that the change seems a bit strange and random, but on the other hand, it did take me a number of viewings to figure out that those were coffins, containing bodies, and they were incinerated as black rose duelists lost.  Yes, I'm slow.  But I was hampered by the fact that there are a hundred dead duelists and only a few living ones.  Mikage presumably has a bunch of unincinerated coffins when he runs out of roses, which is odd.  Explicitly inserting corpses resembling the duelists makes it absolutely clear what's going on.  In some ways this is a bad thing, but it's at least unmistakable.

Leeg wrote:

Well, seeing the bodies, now we know that they did not die in the fire... I think its smoke killed them, probably when they were all imprisoned

Nah, they died in the fire.  I think you're applying too much logic to it.  Yeah, there are no burn marks, but there are no signs of decay either.  In reality, the coffins just contain blackened corpses.  Mikage is hallucinating the pristine bodies.

Last edited by satyreyes (08-31-2011 10:54:57 PM)

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#14 | Back to Top08-31-2011 11:03:32 PM

dirufacade
Ballgoer
From: Baltimore & DC
Registered: 08-03-2011
Posts: 148
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Or maybe they're sleeping.   emot-frown  Nemuro is a JERK!


~ diru

Don't talk shit. One does not hear about Abraxas by accident.

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#15 | Back to Top09-01-2011 12:55:50 AM

Louchan
Rose Bride
Registered: 11-08-2006
Posts: 100

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

dirufacade wrote:

Or maybe they're sleeping.   emot-frown  Nemuro is a JERK!

Suddenly it all makes sense! emot-frown Mikage kidnapped the secret twins of all those characters. Yes! Kozue and Miki were actually quadruplets!

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#16 | Back to Top09-01-2011 04:08:32 AM

Randamonian
Rose Bride
From: Australia
Registered: 11-07-2010
Posts: 102

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

gosh, that's creepy. I havent watched any of this yet. So did not wanna know!

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#17 | Back to Top09-01-2011 08:10:08 AM

KaleMarsh
High Tripper
From: Washington, DC
Registered: 06-13-2011
Posts: 245

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Mikage also shows the strongest signs of not giving a flying fuck about sex and gender.  The male corpses are really just what he had on hand.

Using bodies that resemble the duelists does seem a little contrived.  Ideally, there would just be completely random corpses in there, and I think the audience would still get the idea, but I don't think the change really ruins any possible interpretations, so I don't see a problem.

This seems like a good place to ask, but could someone point out a thread where it's mentioned that all the 100 students did die for sure?  Everyone seems to have a pretty strong consensus, but I've always been confused by the end of the arc when Miki says that no one died in the fire.

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#18 | Back to Top09-01-2011 08:41:29 AM

Leeg
Juri Jeerer
From: Spain
Registered: 02-10-2010
Posts: 49
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Could you tell us when exactly Miki says such a thing?

I'm cheking the scripts but I can't find that.

Ok, found:

Miki: It seems there weren't any casualties, but since it was before the time of the Student Council, no records remain.

Well... no records, I assume the information Miki knows is not correct. I mean, the building burnt and Mikage did it, if there was nobody inside, which was supposed to be the objective of burning it?


And, why does everybody forgive what happened in the whole arc? Any idea? I've never thought about that, any of you did?

I think the clue is here, but I don't really know hot to interpret it:

Akio:  But now, he doesn't exist in this academy.
Akio: No, never has he from the beginning.

Last edited by Leeg (09-01-2011 08:53:54 AM)

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#19 | Back to Top09-01-2011 09:27:08 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

KaleMarsh wrote:

Using bodies that resemble the duelists does seem a little contrived.  Ideally, there would just be completely random corpses in there, and I think the audience would still get the idea, but I don't think the change really ruins any possible interpretations, so I don't see a problem.

With that said, it's clearly demonstrated throughout the Black Rose Arc that Mikage doesn't see things at all the way he should -- Mamiya for one, and then towards the end of the Arc he looks at Utena and sees Tokiko, so it could just be part of Mikage's active hallucinations...and possibly something of a commentary on the fact that although Mikage has far more raw emotion to hand than the computer-like Nemuro, he's still a stone cold bastard. "You failed? YOU ARE NOW DEAD TO ME."

...kind of gives a horrible bit of irony to his graduation scene, really. emot-gonk

Last edited by Clarice (09-01-2011 09:28:31 AM)


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#20 | Back to Top09-01-2011 09:58:26 AM

Leeg
Juri Jeerer
From: Spain
Registered: 02-10-2010
Posts: 49
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

wait, Mikage and Nemuro are not the same?

Last edited by Leeg (09-01-2011 09:59:09 AM)

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#21 | Back to Top09-01-2011 10:19:09 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Leeg wrote:

wait, Mikage and Nemuro are not the same?

Yes and no. emot-keke It depends on how you view the arc, but personally I see Mikage as a "shadow-form" of Nemuro; he is the repressed side of Nemuro that Akio amplified and manipulated in order to achieve his goals. Nemuro was too emotionless to be of any real use to Akio in his plans, but when he saw how both Tokiko and Mamiya opened him to emotions he was so unfamiliar with...well. It made him ripe for harvesting, so to speak. This is why the series deals so much with teenagers in general, I think; it's a time when people are more malleable because they are just discovering who they are and what they will be. Mikage is what Nemuro became, but they are still the same person. Just the same person at different times -- which means personality-wise they're quite distinct in some ways. school-devil


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#22 | Back to Top09-01-2011 11:23:47 AM

KaleMarsh
High Tripper
From: Washington, DC
Registered: 06-13-2011
Posts: 245

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

My interpretation is a slightly more extreme version of Clarice's.  Mikage is something of a complete construct.  He's someone's memory of Nemuro (I'm not sure, but perhaps Akio's since he has so much control over him), which is part of why the whole thing is forgettable.  In a way, he isn't even autonomous.  When Akio and Anthy choose to forget him, he just disappears, as no one else remembers the real Nemuro, and he has destroyed the physical evidence of his existence.

That's also how I explain the memory of the real Nemuro which Mikage represents getting stronger after Tokiko visits.  She remembers something decidedly different from Akio's Mikage, but I don't think she cares that much about him anymore.

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#23 | Back to Top09-01-2011 02:02:42 PM

Louchan
Rose Bride
Registered: 11-08-2006
Posts: 100

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

KaleMarsh wrote:

I've always been confused by the end of the arc when Miki says that no one died in the fire.

I was always under the impression that everyone forgot about what had happened. Remember that Miki also said he didn't remember the building's name, right? Even though the beginning of the arc he was like "what, you don't know about Nemuro Memorial Hall?" when Utena asked him about it. Their memories about it all were erased, as were all the records of it ever existing, and 100 boys ever dying there.

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#24 | Back to Top09-01-2011 03:31:06 PM

yuzukelly
Rose Smilee
Registered: 09-22-2010
Posts: 130

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

i've though that the nemuro to mikage process was like dios turing into akio..kinda. also, when no one remembers mikage or the hall, i thought it was like when utena leaves, no one remembers her and no one remembers him. i'm probably way off, huh? XD i'm bad at analyzing stuff :Sbut those are my thoughts emot-keke

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#25 | Back to Top09-01-2011 03:48:37 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

That whole part of the series felt very 1984 to me.

For something to never have happened simply because "The Words of God" (Akio) said that he (Nemuro) was never here. This leads me to think of two possibilities:

1. 100 Boys did die in the fire. But as long as "God" says no one died, no one died (hence, the 1984 feel I'm getting)

2. There was never such a thing as Nemuro or the fire that killed 100 boys. Akio and Anthy just set up the illusory stage as a small experiment before putting Utena to the real test.

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