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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top06-21-2009 03:48:33 PM

Levi
Wakaba Wrangler
From: Midwest
Registered: 12-18-2006
Posts: 18

Some Utena/Anthy Questions

I have been rewatching Utena, and I have some questions I hope you all may be able to answer.
1. Is Anthy constantly in torment, like when she's in school, sitting in class, she's secretly crying from pain?
2. When Anthy was saved by Utena, will the swords of hate no longer impale her, and she won't be in pain all the time?
3. How exactly was Anthy saved by Utena? Was it becuase Utena was a "prince Anthy could believe in"?
Thanks!! (:

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#2 | Back to Top06-21-2009 04:02:36 PM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: Some Utena/Anthy Questions

Here goes:

1: Yes and no. My impression was that Anthy was always in pain, but it either went up or down, or her awareness of it did. But I don't think she was ever free of it during the show.

2: That seems likely. Kind of depressing to think otherwise really...

3: Now this one is hard to answer. It depends on how you see Anthy's circumstances. Was she being punished? By whom? For what? And what was really missing that kept her trapped in that coffin? There are multiple ways to answer these questions, and they all change the answer to your question. My own interpretation goes something like this: Anthy was punishing herself for corrupting Dios. She didn't make the swords, but she chose to keep getting hit by them endlessly to preserve the fairy tale part of her history with Dios. She does this because she can't accept a reason to stop. Even though her ideal is unimaginably painful for her, she can't bring herself to believe in anything else, so the swords of hate are better than complete nihilism. But in Utena, she finally sees a reason to live that she can accept in place of being the rose bride, and so she can leave her coffin, abandon the fairy tale, and go out and live a new life. She chooses to go looking for Utena. Other people no doubt have very different interpretations though.


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#3 | Back to Top06-21-2009 04:11:16 PM

spoon-san
Someday Shiner
Registered: 03-18-2009
Posts: 3423

Re: Some Utena/Anthy Questions

Hi Levi.

First, I don't think the pain of the swords was always conscious in Anthy.  I think certain moments, such as the rape scene in episode 37, and elsewhere are times when she can feel the pain with full consciousness, but I'm merely going on my own personal hunches.  It's sort of like how dissociation works.  I think she is disassociated from it many times, sort of like one user said in the DID thread, but the pain of the swords is likely something held deep within her subconscious many times or is something that is not always felt on the surface but remains something locked in the innermost self.  For those who have gone through long episodes of depression, a lot of the times you feel numb and you put on a happy face, but when alone you kind of sense it and when you are put in a situation which is very painful psychologically, all of that old pain that has been festering rises up and that's when things can feel unbearable and you don't know if it will go away.

I think that might be what it was like for Anthy.

For your second question, Utena, by opening the Gate, did cause the swords to disengage from Anthy so I do not think that Anthy will ever be pierced or tormented by the swords again.  However, that does not mean the scars go away and I would think Anthy would have lingering pain, but compared to what it was, I think she can move past it, think back on it with that sense of sadness, but look at her present and future with optimism.

Finally, Anthy was saved partly because Utena was the prince she had faith in.  It was also because Utena made her own decision to not be a princess, let go of her prince, and accept Dios' intentions to free Anthy into her and thus become the prince whether anyone believed she was one or not (because Anthy did reject Utena as her prince, verbally at least, though by that time, Utena had already made the decision to save Anthy and even Anthy's words, even if they were not truly what Anthy believed, said that being a prince was impossible.).

But I think Anthy was primarily saved because Utena and her cultivated a deep bond through the course of the series which managed to stand the trial imposed by Akio with the duels, temptation and all, betrayel and all.  In the end, their bond survived because of mutual love and forgiveness and commitment, especially from Utena's part.  They more or less seemed to feel that giving themselves up for the other was the decision to be made.  If we assume Anthy intended to really kill herself, this would be more true but her taking the swords of hate may make that point as well if we believe that Anthy partially stabbed Utena to prevent Utena from being caught up anymore in Anthy's own suffering (that was my initial response when I first watched the series in February and I still believe that, personally.).  And Utena took on the swords for Anthy despite Anthy's cries of protest to save herself, just like in the suicide scene.

Yes and no. My impression was that Anthy was always in pain, but it either went up or down, or her awareness of it did. But I don't think she was ever free of it during the show.

I agree with this and you said it better than I could without rambling on.

Last edited by spoon-san (06-21-2009 04:15:08 PM)

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#4 | Back to Top06-21-2009 04:18:25 PM

Melancholic_Soul
Dancer Romancer
From: VA
Registered: 04-28-2009
Posts: 1513

Re: Some Utena/Anthy Questions

Levi wrote:

I have been rewatching Utena, and I have some questions I hope you all may be able to answer.
1. Is Anthy constantly in torment, like when she's in school, sitting in class, she's secretly crying from pain?
2. When Anthy was saved by Utena, will the swords of hate no longer impale her, and she won't be in pain all the time?
3. How exactly was Anthy saved by Utena? Was it becuase Utena was a "prince Anthy could believe in"?
Thanks!! (:

oooh great questions emot-keke none of which I can honestly answer u__u

1. hmmm, well I'd like to say yeah. There's  this definite opposing figure of Anthy in 'actual' reality contrasted by Anthy within Ohtori campus society. We know she can pull on many masks, it wouldn't be a problem for her to hide that pain.

2. IDK >_< I just kind of figured they were gone... u__u

3. I'd like to believe that. The thing is though there wasn't complete honesty between the two, even on Utena's part. I feel that there was something else added to that. Like in the end how Anthy left in search of Utena, my question always was "Is that because Anthy believes she can be a Prince and pursue her own destiny instead of waiting for someone else to fulfill it for her?"

I hope my two pennies can be at least a bit helpful ^____^


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/anthy_utena/rukasan.gif Believing in the power of Love and Justice since 1999
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#5 | Back to Top06-21-2009 04:20:36 PM

Melancholic_Soul
Dancer Romancer
From: VA
Registered: 04-28-2009
Posts: 1513

Re: Some Utena/Anthy Questions

spoon-san wrote:

Yes and no. My impression was that Anthy was always in pain, but it either went up or down, or her awareness of it did. But I don't think she was ever free of it during the show.

I agree with this and you said it better than I could without rambling on.

Oooooh. Like the swords represented the memory itself, and things that reminded her of it brought on the pain.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/anthy_utena/rukasan.gif Believing in the power of Love and Justice since 1999
Red Lobster CGM- Burning Shrimp since 2013
Amazon FFC fucking shit up since 2015
Best Buy Warehouse - Tech decks on deck since 2016

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#6 | Back to Top06-21-2009 04:29:10 PM

spoon-san
Someday Shiner
Registered: 03-18-2009
Posts: 3423

Re: Some Utena/Anthy Questions

Melancholic_Soul wrote:

spoon-san wrote:

Yes and no. My impression was that Anthy was always in pain, but it either went up or down, or her awareness of it did. But I don't think she was ever free of it during the show.

I agree with this and you said it better than I could without rambling on.

Oooooh. Like the swords represented the memory itself, and things that reminded her of it brought on the pain.

I think that is a good interpretation.  It never really occurred to me before. 

Now this one is hard to answer. It depends on how you see Anthy's circumstances. Was she being punished? By whom? For what? And what was really missing that kept her trapped in that coffin? There are multiple ways to answer these questions, and they all change the answer to your question. My own interpretation goes something like this: Anthy was punishing herself for corrupting Dios. She didn't make the swords, but she chose to keep getting hit by them endlessly to preserve the fairy tale part of her history with Dios. She does this because she can't accept a reason to stop. Even though her ideal is unimaginably painful for her, she can't bring herself to believe in anything else, so the swords of hate are better than complete nihilism. But in Utena, she finally sees a reason to live that she can accept in place of being the rose bride, and so she can leave her coffin, abandon the fairy tale, and go out and live a new life. She chooses to go looking for Utena. Other people no doubt have very different interpretations though.

Actually that makes a great deal of sense.  Anthy's self-image is that of the Rose Bride and Akio is also the one who encourages this notion hence why Anthy plays by the rules and never gives in to her own will nor leaves Ohtori.  But Utena seems to awaken the part of Anthy that is not tainted by the swords (or has a self-image that is one she held before she was first pierced by the swords hence why the voice of child Utena is first heard to signify Anthy recovering a purity and innocence that was lost after her decision to become the Rose Bride, adopting the world image and self-image of the witch.  But Utena instead saw Anthy as another girl, a normal girl, despite the duelists and students seeing Anthy as a creep, as a doormat, so I think opening the Gate to awaken the beautiful and innocent part of her represents awakening that self-image which allows Anthy to reject her former self-perception and thus be free of that identity (represented by leaving behind her lackluster physical image and leaving Akio, Ohtori, and all associated with that former sense of self.).

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#7 | Back to Top06-25-2009 09:00:02 AM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
Website

Re: Some Utena/Anthy Questions

My 2 cents! school-eng101

1. Is Anthy constantly in torment, like when she's in school, sitting in class, she's secretly crying from pain?

I think she's beyond pain...pain doesn't even mean pain for her anymore. It means normal. She's apathetic, ambivalent, beyond it all...a doll without a heart, incapable of feeling pain or caring if she does. That is DAMN SAD. Angst angst angst. emot-tongue

2. When Anthy was saved by Utena, will the swords of hate no longer impale her, and she won't be in pain all the time?

Correct. No more swords - if you watch the final ep you can see them raining down on Utena instead.

3. How exactly was Anthy saved by Utena? Was it becuase Utena was a "prince Anthy could believe in"?

Yep. Although notice she believes at the last possible moment...she is pretty much in shock when she takes Utena's hand. And the reason Utena is a prince that Anthy can believe in is she is the only one who ever actually wants to know her and be her friend (and goes through hell to do it, including personal betrayal)...in that final duel Utena says "I came here to meet you." She meets the true Anthy in her coffin, for the very first time.

Awww. Now I'm gonna cry. emot-keke

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#8 | Back to Top12-08-2010 09:11:30 PM

CoffinBreaker
Rose Bride
From: Here and Now
Registered: 10-28-2010
Posts: 117

Re: Some Utena/Anthy Questions

Levi wrote:

I have been rewatching Utena, and I have some questions I hope you all may be able to answer.
1. Is Anthy constantly in torment, like when she's in school, sitting in class, she's secretly crying from pain?
2. When Anthy was saved by Utena, will the swords of hate no longer impale her, and she won't be in pain all the time?
3. How exactly was Anthy saved by Utena? Was it becuase Utena was a "prince Anthy could believe in"?
Thanks!! (:

1. Not entirely. I think the swords manifest more often as emotional pain than physical, and in the only times they do manifest as such the swords materialize as tangible objects. (In my personal opinion, anyway.) Like during the earring scene, (if I'm remembering it correctly) the swords appeared when Anthy was in emotional pain, but did not actually physically manifest. Then when the scenes where there is mention of Anthy "deserving/wanting her burden", they almost unfailingly show up as actual pieces of metal impaling her.

2. No, then the entire series would be for naught D: I think Utena took the swords instead, though what that implies for the post-series is rather bleak-if not very intriguing...

3. Utena fought to save Anthy, even when it seemed completely hopeless (like going against a magical weapon with a bokken, for example) no matter what it cost her, and despite the fact that Anthy really didn't believe in her (knowingly and whole-heartedly) until the very, very end. When Anthy finally does accept Utena as her prince, that's when she's saved. Well, to a point-Utena merely opens the door, and Anthy must walk through it on her own. Albeit this comes about as a result of Utena's sacrifice, and then the swords move on to destroy the new prince, but in the world of fanfiction it tends to work out anyway emot-keke

Just my thoughts, hope it helps and sorry for the rambling.


You don't need to understand Revolutionary Girl Utena to understand it.

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