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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top01-04-2007 01:57:31 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Touga and Akio

So I was watching Episode 10, the cat-killing episode when Nanami is given a duellist ring by Touga and duels Utena for the first time. As we all know, Utena knocks off Nanami's rose rather quickly but, being Nanami, she cheats and draws another dagger, coming after Utena after the duel is officially over. What I found interesting was Anthy's reaction. She seems dismayed when Nanami goes against the rules and continues to fight. Touga stops the fight after he's seen enough to know he can win his duel in the next episode. He tells Nanami that he will protect her. Utena is totally buying Touga's "I'm a great big brother, I'm a prince" act. Then, as Touga and Nanami walk away, Anthy turns as she stands next to Utena and gives Touga this look here. If you watch the scene, her expression is more discernable than in this screen cap.
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q249 … hylook.jpg

It's not one of her usual "looks". Her expression makes me think of dark clouds gathering, anger perhaps? She knows Touga is up to something. Does this look mean, gasp!, Anthy's not in on it? Is this one of our first glimpses of the Akio/Touga team-up that doesn't include Anthy? In future episodes, we see Akio plotting with Touga and Akio plotting with Anthy. We see Touga telling Anthy she belongs in her birdcage (a soul crushing scene), a viewpoint that Akio shares presumably.


What does the look mean to you? What about Akio, Touga and Anthy as yet another complicated triangle in SKU?

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#2 | Back to Top01-04-2007 02:49:06 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Touga and Akio

I remember an old quote which was

DIVIDE AND CONQUER

which I believe that would be what Akio would pull in his efforts to weaken some of Anthy's hold which she has over him and Touga while ambitious, is in comparison to Anthy, a mere patsy.

As a response, we see Anthy start to do things which Akio didnít approve of in later episodes with Utena as the means she uses to achieve this.

(I cannot remember what events they were at the moment but Iím sure there are plenty of people in our forum who can Ďconnect the dotsí as it were.)


http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/spatulasama/DooDah.jpg

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#3 | Back to Top01-05-2007 07:53:31 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
Website

Re: Touga and Akio

I always took that look to be Anthy annoyed at Touga's being so critical of the magic tricks no one else has really bothered to figure out. She sees him on his way to winning, but I think even now, she realizes she doesn't feel like being anyone else's bride. Especially Touga's. I almost want to suggest she'd prefer being Saionji's, given that bad attention is better than none, and she'd rather be the beat up center of a person's universe than a fly on the wall, even if it keeps the victor off her back.

Which, now that I think of it...does Anthy ever get annoyed that Akio's a gigantic attention whore? She has to play subservient symbol of power and he gets to pull his pants down and wave his business all over the school. Hah! Maybe that's her problem, she's annoyed she's going to have to play passive airhead (boring role) while Akio gets to have a grand old time for himself with Touga. Then again, Anthy in her own fashion has that fun with Saionji, so I don't know what she's complaining about.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#4 | Back to Top01-05-2007 08:34:40 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Touga and Akio

Giovanna wrote:

I always took that look to be Anthy annoyed at Touga's being so critical of the magic tricks no one else has really bothered to figure out.

I think that expression shows she's definitely annoyed at Touga. By "magic tricks" do you mean the rules of the arena? Touga certainly screwed with those. Re-watching the scene, Utena actually drops her guard even with Nanami charging her because Utena believes the duel is over, no more reason to fight. She's not totally comitted to duelling at all costs. That's where Touga gets her in the next episode.

Giovanna wrote:

She sees him on his way to winning, but I think even now, she realizes she doesn't feel like being anyone else's bride. Especially Touga's.

Agreed. I'm sure she knows he's pulled his little Nanami stunt successfully. That she's against his plan is also held up by her actions in the next episode when she "shores up" Utena's resolve by telling her that she's ready to make friends. She's got it good with Utena, maybe she's figured that out by this time.

Giovanna wrote:

I almost want to suggest she'd prefer being Saionji's, given that bad attention is better than none, and she'd rather be the beat up center of a person's universe than a fly on the wall, even if it keeps the victor off her back.
Then again, Anthy in her own fashion has that fun with Saionji, so I don't know what she's complaining about.

Hmm, dare I say you might be mapping on Anthy here? emot-biggrin I know YOU wouldn't be complaining. etc-wankgirlschool-devilschool-freud

Giovanna wrote:

Which, now that I think of it...does Anthy ever get annoyed that Akio's a gigantic attention whore? She has to play subservient symbol of power and he gets to pull his pants down and wave his business all over the school. Hah! Maybe that's her problem, she's annoyed she's going to have to play passive airhead (boring role) while Akio gets to have a grand old time for himself with Touga.

"wave his business" emot-biggrin

Hey, if she's bored, she could've seduced Utena. None of us would mind. etc-wankgirl

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#5 | Back to Top01-05-2007 11:16:24 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
Website

Re: Touga and Akio

Dani wrote:

She's not totally comitted to duelling at all costs. That's where Touga gets her in the next episode.

Yeah, it took her stint with Touga to really understand the stakes and what could happen in the arena. Nanami and Touga as a pair teach Utena that the game is dirty, and there aren't any rules. I don't think Utena understood prior to that, she thought it was a straight swordfight, as opposed to something people would lie and cheat at. But that comes back around to Touga being the first crack in Utena's worldview and faith in her prince.

Dani wrote:

Hmm, dare I say you might be mapping on Anthy here? emot-biggrin I know YOU wouldn't be complaining. etc-wankgirlschool-devilschool-freud

Awwww, give me some credit. emot-frown Anthy did have more fun with Saionji than Touga, because she enjoyed pestering the unholy hell out of the poor guy. Touga she basically leaves alone, and he leaves her alone. Anthy has a mean streak, actually a meaner streak than her brother, I'd say, and she took great pleasure in taking it out on Saionji. I don't mean to excuse his behavior, but he doesn't slap her around for no reason.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#6 | Back to Top01-05-2007 11:43:21 AM

Syuria
Touga Topper
From: Brighton
Registered: 01-01-2007
Posts: 53
Website

Re: Touga and Akio

Giovanna wrote:

Awwww, give me some credit. emot-frown Anthy did have more fun with Saionji than Touga, because she enjoyed pestering the unholy hell out of the poor guy. Touga she basically leaves alone, and he leaves her alone. Anthy has a mean streak, actually a meaner streak than her brother, I'd say, and she took great pleasure in taking it out on Saionji. I don't mean to excuse his behavior, but he doesn't slap her around for no reason.

It's definately fun watching Anthy push every single button to piss Saionji off, I didn't realise at first at just how good she is at striking people right in their weak points at the oppertune moment. (Very Captain Jack there, heheh...) Early on she proves that that part about the Rose Bride having to obey who she's enganged to is a load of rubbish.

That's why I think she probably didn't enjoy being with Touga as much; there's not many points there to stab at. All you can do is lead him along and think he's gaining power like Akio did. school-devil

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#7 | Back to Top01-05-2007 01:26:56 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Touga and Akio

Giovanna wrote:

Yeah, it took her stint with Touga to really understand the stakes and what could happen in the arena. Nanami and Touga as a pair teach Utena that the game is dirty, and there aren't any rules. I don't think Utena understood prior to that, she thought it was a straight swordfight, as opposed to something people would lie and cheat at. But that comes back around to Touga being the first crack in Utena's worldview and faith in her prince.

Oh, yeah, and that parallels the Miki/Kozue brother/sister duel in Ep. 26. Utena does not let Kozue macking on Anthy (or is it the other way around, yes!) distract her from winning the duel.

Dani wrote:

Hmm, dare I say you might be mapping on Anthy here? emot-biggrin I know YOU wouldn't be complaining. etc-wankgirlschool-devilschool-freud

Giovanna wrote:

Awwww, give me some credit. emot-frown Anthy did have more fun with Saionji than Touga, because she enjoyed pestering the unholy hell out of the poor guy. Touga she basically leaves alone, and he leaves her alone. Anthy has a mean streak, actually a meaner streak than her brother, I'd say, and she took great pleasure in taking it out on Saionji. I don't mean to excuse his behavior, but he doesn't slap her around for no reason.

Oh, hell, I agree, I was giving you a hard time. She loved torturing that guy! And having a few laughs at his expense over the highly sophomoric exchange diary.

I love this scene from Ep 6 when Saionji is standing around yammering about the exchange diary but Miki and Utena don't even turn to look at him. It's funny in Japanese but it's even funnier in the English Dub because they changed Utena's line. And it's a better line.

Utena:  Is that what she calls a boyfriend?
Miki:  I have no idea.
Saionji:  However cruel, as long as he is with the only one he loves, he will be happy.
Saionji:  That's another form of love, as love can take many forms.
Saionji:  And I'd say this love between Anthy and I is hidden love.
Saionji:  A hidden love...
[there's a long beat pause]
Utena:  Yeah, nice SKIRT, Saionji.   (he's wearing his kendo outfit, ouch!)


Oh and, Giovanna, I give you LOTS of credit. emot-keke
But your Saionji avatar distracts me for some reason. emot-wink

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#8 | Back to Top01-05-2007 03:22:44 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Touga and Akio

Syuria wrote:

That's why I think she probably didn't enjoy being with Touga as much; there's not many points there to stab at. All you can do is lead him along and think he's gaining power like Akio did. school-devil

That sounds right to me. Even though she 'likes' Utena, she messes with her a lot. Especially in the first arc, where she's most inclined to dislike Utena's "princely behavior."


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

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#9 | Back to Top01-07-2007 12:07:49 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
Website

Re: Touga and Akio

Syuria wrote:

That's why I think she probably didn't enjoy being with Touga as much; there's not many points there to stab at. All you can do is lead him along and think he's gaining power like Akio did. school-devil

I wonder about that. Why didn't she pester Touga? Perhaps she realized the situation was utterly temporary and didn't bother with it? Touga could certainly be pestered, but most any route she could have taken would have required time she didn't get. The thing that works to her disadvantage is perhaps the best way to get to him; Touga thinks she's mindless and will adapt her persona to her victor automatically, which means she could seriously fuck with him by becoming what he wants (doesn't want).

I wonder if it's not also a bit of 'Oh that one belongs to Akio'. They're both sadistic, but they seem to divide the school population between each other, with very little overlap. Nanami and Saionji are Anthy's punching bags. She also screws quite openly with poor Kanae. Akio seems far more interested in Touga and Utena, and Kanae's dear mother. It's worth noting that the shit hits the fan when Akio and Anthy seem to disagree on who Utena belongs to.

Dani wrote:

I love this scene from Ep 6 when Saionji is standing around yammering about the exchange diary but Miki and Utena don't even turn to look at him.

Poor Saionji, no one takes him seriously, it's awful. emot-frown

The exchange diary is just bad, yes. (I had one! With a boy, no less. But I was in 6th grade. emot-keke We used to draw maps of Europe in it and discuss which countries needed to fall first if you were attempting to take over the world.) Still, if you remove the silly diary, and the way he's being ruthlessly ignored, and just look at what he's saying, it's a nice big chunk of that insight I'm always yammering about Saionji having. Naturally he's completely clueless about the situation applied to him. (Anthy's love for him is hidden. Yeeep. Poor guy.) However, he hits the nail square on the head talking about the situation that doesn't involve him. It comes full circle when you consider that same idea, of love despite cruelty, has no doubt applied to Anthy before. Just not with Saionji.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#10 | Back to Top01-07-2007 12:20:19 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Touga and Akio

Giovanna wrote:

I wonder if it's not also a bit of 'Oh that one belongs to Akio'. They're both sadistic, but they seem to divide the school population between each other, with very little overlap. Nanami and Saionji are Anthy's punching bags. She also screws quite openly with poor Kanae. Akio seems far more interested in Touga and Utena, and Kanae's dear mother. It's worth noting that the shit hits the fan when Akio and Anthy seem to disagree on who Utena belongs to.

Love that bit of insight there. I think you hit the situation dead on. Utena is the wishbone. Ha! emot-redface


Giovanna wrote:

The exchange diary is just bad, yes. (I had one! With a boy, no less. But I was in 6th grade. emot-keke We used to draw maps of Europe in it and discuss which countries needed to fall first if you were attempting to take over the world.)

That's pretty adorable, you future dictators, you.

Giovanna wrote:

Still, if you remove the silly diary, and the way he's being ruthlessly ignored, and just look at what he's saying, it's a nice big chunk of that insight I'm always yammering about Saionji having. Naturally he's completely clueless about the situation applied to him. (Anthy's love for him is hidden. Yeeep. Poor guy.) However, he hits the nail square on the head talking about the situation that doesn't involve him. It comes full circle when you consider that same idea, of love despite cruelty, has no doubt applied to Anthy before. Just not with Saionji.

I was just watching the last few episodes and I ADORE Saionji in those. He's funny, he's caring, he's supportive and he's right most of the time. He and Nanami seem to be in good places there at the end.

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#11 | Back to Top01-07-2007 12:27:35 PM

Syuria
Touga Topper
From: Brighton
Registered: 01-01-2007
Posts: 53
Website

Re: Touga and Akio

Giovanna wrote:

I wonder about that. Why didn't she pester Touga? Perhaps she realized the situation was utterly temporary and didn't bother with it? Touga could certainly be pestered, but most any route she could have taken would have required time she didn't get. The thing that works to her disadvantage is perhaps the best way to get to him; Touga thinks she's mindless and will adapt her persona to her victor automatically, which means she could seriously fuck with him by becoming what he wants (doesn't want).

I suppose pestering Touga would just take up too much time, probably more time that Anthy can be bothered to dedicate to winding him up. To me at least, Touga does have those chinks in his armour like Juri, Saionji and Miki have that Anthy can get in a quick hit against. And besides, Anthy seemed to be a bit distracted thinking about Utena while she was being Touga's rose bride.

Giovanna wrote:

I wonder if it's not also a bit of 'Oh that one belongs to Akio'. They're both sadistic, but they seem to divide the school population between each other, with very little overlap. Nanami and Saionji are Anthy's punching bags. She also screws quite openly with poor Kanae. Akio seems far more interested in Touga and Utena, and Kanae's dear mother. It's worth noting that the shit hits the fan when Akio and Anthy seem to disagree on who Utena belongs to.

Heheh, I never realised that, but that makes a lot of sense! It would explain why Akio ignores Saionji for most of the series, which is suprising because I could imagine him having quite a lot of fun with that sexually-frustrated young man with a massive anger problem. etc-wankgirl

That also made me realise that Anthy's very specific in who she aims her malice at. She only really messes around with Juri and Miki enough to make them duel, no doubt on Akio's request, but otherwise she pretty much leaves them alone. Saionji and Nanami on the other hand... Saionji is convinced they are destined lovers and whacks her all the time, and Nanami tries numerous times early on to humiliate Anthy. So both are fair game to Anthy, it seems. Of all the people in Ohtori, Anthy is definately the most dangerous one to piss off. school-devil

And poor Saionji. emot-frown No one does take him seriously! (Though Chu Chu!Saionji is adorable, heheh!) Even though he flat out states things, like in the first episode that the castle is just an illusion, no one pays a blind bit of notice to him...

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#12 | Back to Top01-07-2007 01:35:19 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Touga and Akio

Giovanna wrote:

I wonder about that. Why didn't she pester Touga? Perhaps she realized the situation was utterly temporary and didn't bother with it?

I'm not sure about that. Anthy expects Utena to lose the rematch against Touga, so at the least she doesn't see herself reuniting with Utena any time soon. (Weirdly, Chu Chu does seem to expect it, judging from the way he/it hordes those crackers in the hobo-sack.) I think it may have more to do with whether Anthy believes Touga deserves to be messed with. Saionji and Nanami treat her badly in such a way that Anthy can view herself as the victim and be justifed in screwing with them. And Utena's blindness, which incorporates her desires for Anthy into being Anthy's actual desires, leaves her open for veiled attacks as well.

But Touga as the engaged does the opposite of Utena and Saionji, treating Anthy as the object she's portraying herself to be. In effect, giving her what it appears she wants based on her 'normal' behavior. As horrible as his scenario for Anthy as his bride may sound, keeping her locked up in her rose garden cage, Touga isn't saying it to be cruel to her. He really thinks that's what's best for Anthy, similar to Akio saying Anthy will remain the Rose Bride for eternity (when 'persuading' Utena to be his princess,) but without the knowledge to make it an ironic statement. Since that's how Anthy has been presenting herself up until now, she wouldn't necessarily judge Touga harshly for giving it to her.

For Anthy, being presented with the life she pretends she wants is likely what causes her to decide it's not what she desires. She doesn't value what she had with Utena until it's gone. Whether or not Anthy is aware that Utena's rematch with Touga is the duel of Self, (or if she cares?) Anthy doesn't get involved in it until Utena puts her own life in jeapordy, a la Dios.


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

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#13 | Back to Top01-07-2007 02:50:09 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Touga and Akio

Ragnarok wrote:

Since that's how Anthy has been presenting herself up until now, she wouldn't necessarily judge Touga harshly for giving it to her.

Hmm, yes, that could explain the look she gets on her face in the scene in the birdcage where Touga tells her that's where she belongs. She had been talking about the lunch with Wakaba/Utena and her wish to cook. But his reminder that she shouldn't want that as the Rose Bride jolts her, it seems. Despite her intended facade, living with Utena has already started to change her. And his comments make her realize that.

Ragnarok wrote:

For Anthy, being presented with the life she pretends she wants is likely what causes her to decide it's not what she desires. She doesn't value what she had with Utena until it's gone. Whether or not Anthy is aware that Utena's rematch with Touga is the duel of Self, (or if she cares?) Anthy doesn't get involved in it until Utena puts her own life in jeapordy, a la Dios.

So during the Self duel, she might have been over-compensating, annoyed at herself for letting her facade slip to Touga of all people, in essence agreeing with Touga that she shouldn't want to be more than the Rose Bride. She tries hard to get back to her Rose Bride facade but that doesn't go as planned either.

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#14 | Back to Top01-08-2007 08:32:32 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
Website

Re: Touga and Akio

Syuria wrote:

Akio ignores Saionji for most of the series, which is suprising because I could imagine him having quite a lot of fun with that sexually-frustrated young man with a massive anger problem. etc-wankgirl

My god, would I love to have seen that. etc-wankgirl I feel kinda bad willing my adorable Saionji into such a dangerous position but come on, that's just ridiculously hot.

That said, there's more than Anthy in play there, I think. Saionji is first and foremost Touga's toy. It's not necessary for Akio to deal directly with him, he can dump the manipulative work on his subordinate. At the cost of getting access to Saionji himself, but...I wonder how Touga would have felt about Akio seducing Saionji? Could it possibly, maybe have bothered him, just a little? Not enough to act against his boss, but enough to make things a little less convenient for Akio? Akio is a whore and lets sex factor into his schemes on purpose, but not once does he have sex with someone when it would be disadvantageous of him to do so.

Syuria wrote:

And poor Saionji. emot-frown No one does take him seriously! (Though Chu Chu!Saionji is adorable, heheh!) Even though he flat out states things, like in the first episode that the castle is just an illusion, no one pays a blind bit of notice to him...

What's sad is I believe he flat out contradicts this later on. Saionji's insight comes when no one's paying attention. Including him. emot-frown If you pointed out his insights, he wouldn't believe you, simply because his ego is so shot to hell. emot-frown


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#15 | Back to Top01-09-2007 12:32:29 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Touga and Akio

Anthy's keeping Utena's handkerchief and later imagining them having tea is the first time that I can recall really seeing Anthy express some sort of emotion that she wasn't using to manipulate a situation to her advantage.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#16 | Back to Top01-09-2007 04:25:48 AM

Syuria
Touga Topper
From: Brighton
Registered: 01-01-2007
Posts: 53
Website

Re: Touga and Akio

Giovanna wrote:

That said, there's more than Anthy in play there, I think. Saionji is first and foremost Touga's toy. It's not necessary for Akio to deal directly with him, he can dump the manipulative work on his subordinate. At the cost of getting access to Saionji himself, but...I wonder how Touga would have felt about Akio seducing Saionji? Could it possibly, maybe have bothered him, just a little? Not enough to act against his boss, but enough to make things a little less convenient for Akio? Akio is a whore and lets sex factor into his schemes on purpose, but not once does he have sex with someone when it would be disadvantageous of him to do so.

Aaah, I never thought of it that way! I would imagine Touga would be slightly put out by Akio dragging another guy into their little games, as the best way for Akio to get Touga to do what he wants is for him to think he's in the most powerful position, and dragging Saionji in would definately make him think he was no longer Akio's right hand man. By the time Saionji is joining in on the photo sessions, Akio probably thinks the games are all going his way and he really has no more need for Touga.

I suppose how he doesn't seduce Saionji is very similar to how it's very unlikely he slept with Wakaba, since that would've done him to favours with getting to Utena. Clearly he's an sex addict on a epic scale, but he knows when to keep the beast in its cage, so to speak. emot-wink

Dani wrote:

Hmm, yes, that could explain the look she gets on her face in the scene in the birdcage where Touga tells her that's where she belongs. She had been talking about the lunch with Wakaba/Utena and her wish to cook. But his reminder that she shouldn't want that as the Rose Bride jolts her, it seems. Despite her intended facade, living with Utena has already started to change her. And his comments make her realize that.

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Anthy's keeping Utena's handkerchief and later imagining them having tea is the first time that I can recall really seeing Anthy express some sort of emotion that she wasn't using to manipulate a situation to her advantage.

Heheh, that's why I love that episode so much! It's the first time Anthy really stops acting just as Akio's pawn and a vindictive cow, and starts to show that she wants to be more than just the Rose Bride. It's kinda sweet to see how Utena's started to change her view on things, and I kinda see it as the start of her passive-agressive defiance of Akio later in the series.

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