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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top11-14-2008 05:02:37 AM

dlynnishmel
New Student
Registered: 11-10-2008
Posts: 5

Did Anthy "not wanted to be Rose Bride" really?

Formerly I was sure that Anthy became Rose Bride because of complex of guilty, and Akio crime was that he encouraged her.

Now as I met such people I'm not so confident... Anthy could really enjoy her "body sacrifice". And "death" of her brother was only a formal cause to pose her desires as "holy" (whereas they might be "dirty" in a common social context). And real help to Anthy is not to stop (Utena) or support (Akio) her in being Rose Bride, but find another, more sincere and free manifestation of her fantasies. And not so painful, of cause.

It's my conclusion about my girl wanting to be "Rose-Bride-Equivalent" for me (without seeing any anime at all, btw)

Last edited by dlynnishmel (11-15-2008 06:27:17 AM)

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#2 | Back to Top11-14-2008 10:27:23 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Did Anthy "not wanted to be Rose Bride" really?

The whole question of what freedom meant to Anthy is far from simple. She was not doing what she wanted but what she thought was all for the best. Yeah, she was choosing to be a martyr and deliberately running away from freedom but she also had Akio manipulating her. Akio was partly right, on some level she wanted to be what she was, it probably felt better than being a free, but terrifying lonely nobody of a young girl being crushed by feelings of guilt. It had become partly just a habit for her that she could not break. Her name means something like Shrine Princess, some princesses are locked away by dragons, she locked herself away to a mausoleum, to memories, to the vampire caricature of the man she once loved.

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#3 | Back to Top11-15-2008 01:48:55 AM

P.D.M.
Touga Topper
From: Budapest, Hungary
Registered: 06-24-2008
Posts: 54

Re: Did Anthy "not wanted to be Rose Bride" really?

brian said:
to the vampire caricature of the man she once loved.

Let it be duly noted that she's at a fault for Akio becoming the way he is now.


Cedric X Orube: Finally a pairing I can adore!

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#4 | Back to Top11-15-2008 06:40:41 AM

dlynnishmel
New Student
Registered: 11-10-2008
Posts: 5

Re: Did Anthy "not wanted to be Rose Bride" really?

P.D.M. wrote:

Let it be duly noted that she's at a fault for Akio becoming the way he is now.

Another interesting question: what was her fault. She has said to the crowd "I secured him from you and made sure he's only mine". But her brother is not secured, not charmed "to love only her", and she doesn't admire his attention very much. So if it's not the bluff but an allegory - what should it mean?

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#5 | Back to Top11-15-2008 07:19:36 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Did Anthy "not wanted to be Rose Bride" really?

dlynnishmel wrote:

P.D.M. wrote:

Let it be duly noted that she's at a fault for Akio becoming the way he is now.

But her brother is not secured, not charmed "to love only her", and she doesn't admire his attention very much.

It's arguable that that it's "all her fault" but not obvious. Saying that seems to exonerate Akio and deprive him of all free will and moral accountability and that seems suspect and unfair.

When Anthy set things in motion she did not anticipate accurately how it all would turn out. That's true for a lot of things people start.

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#6 | Back to Top11-15-2008 10:29:56 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Did Anthy "not wanted to be Rose Bride" really?

brian wrote:

Saying that seems to exonerate Akio and deprive him of all free will and moral accountability and that seems suspect and unfair.
When Anthy set things in motion she did not anticipate accurately how it all would turn out. That's true for a lot of things people start.

Seconded.


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#7 | Back to Top11-16-2008 07:26:21 PM

hollow_rose
Egghead
From: Ohio
Registered: 10-26-2008
Posts: 1074

Re: Did Anthy "not wanted to be Rose Bride" really?

A lot of interpretation for this point depends on which version you are discussing. If you watch the movie, it sounds like Akio wasn't a prince at all -- Anthy just wished he was one. The manga version she also seems more of a victim, sacrificing herself to protect him. They seem more on equal footing in the anime.


20 threads dead so far.

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#8 | Back to Top11-17-2008 04:19:55 PM

dlynnishmel
New Student
Registered: 11-10-2008
Posts: 5

Re: Did Anthy "not wanted to be Rose Bride" really?

brian wrote:

It's arguable that that it's "all her fault" but not obvious. Saying that seems to exonerate Akio and deprive him of all free will and moral accountability and that seems suspect and unfair.

If Himemya commited another crime (not that one she blames herself literally) - why hadn't she said about it "as is" and invented some false explanation instead? This complexity seems to be unadequate.  It's simplier to suppose that she just bluffs.

As I know from the real life, a "prince" that failed to answer a cry for help feels himself as a betrayer and a scum. And Akio didn't help many of the petitioners because Himemya pretended he had stopped his services. Nor he had the power to resist her. Theoretically, it's enough for an ideology crisis.

Last edited by dlynnishmel (11-17-2008 04:23:54 PM)

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#9 | Back to Top11-17-2008 04:37:27 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Did Anthy "not wanted to be Rose Bride" really?

In episode 34, we are presented with two distinct versions of "The Tale of the Rose."  In one, Himemiya solely and knowingly masterminds a scheme to keep her brother away from the world.  In another, Himemiya attempts to save her brother from the negative consequences of his dedication to Princeliness.  I believe it's generally accepted that the second version (the animated version, rather than the shadow play) is the less biased version (Himemiya's statement at the barn door continues to lend her actions all the necessary moral ambiguity needed).

Please give Himemiya the same credit you give Akio.  She did something--"crime" is far too strong a word--with presumably mixed motives: some good and selfless, some bad and selfish.  That action ended up warping (possibly even "destroying") the thing she loved most and was trying to save.  Save and have to herself?  Possibly, yes.  However, as a result, she got what she had wanted all along, but in a very corrupted form.  It's bittersweet and guilty.  That is also enough for an ideology crisis. 

Is it any wonder that Anthy thereafter sees herself as a dirty Witch deserving of punishment?  Our "hero" Utena, however, disagrees with Anthy's own assessment.  Our "villain" Akio even admits that he initially saw Anthy as "a goddess who sacrificed herself for the one she loved" and allows that she may have been exactly that, once, but that "now she is a Witch."  We're not bound to agree fully with either character's assessment, obviously, but if Utena isn't ready to write Anthy off as a "criminal" after all Anthy did, it's enough for a second look.

However, Utena is not terribly insightful, so I doubt her opinion as to whether Anthy wants to be the Rose Bride or enjoys being a Witch is necessarily accurate.  I have trouble believing that any person (and so, by extension, characters that represent people) ever takes an action for only one reason, pure or impure.  I refer to Anthy's own words for her feelings about being the Rose Bride.  "Because I'm the Rose Bride...because I'm a doll with no heart.  I thought that no matter what befell my body, my heart wouldn't feel the pain.  My suffering is my rightful punishment as the Rose Bride. ... I'm a dirty woman, I've betrayed you all along."  Doesn't sound like she 100% likes it or that she got exactly what she expected.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (11-17-2008 04:51:56 PM)


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#10 | Back to Top11-18-2008 01:57:08 PM

dlynnishmel
New Student
Registered: 11-10-2008
Posts: 5

Re: Did Anthy "not wanted to be Rose Bride" really?

rhyaniwyn wrote:

....

Good.

A little correction: there IS a sort of born Witches (and "Warlock" boys) those call themselves "dirty", "evil", "having no heart". The reason is that they possess absolutely chaotic ("diabolic", by Christianity) spirit from the childhood, and, been blamed and hit for that many times, study such self-notation as a part of their social role. They frequently hate their physical body (playing some self-wounding games, in particular) and "don't look after themselves" indeed. I have met two such pure "Witches" already, and some partial forms of ones.

Last edited by dlynnishmel (11-18-2008 01:58:58 PM)

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