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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top10-03-2007 04:19:08 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

On-Topic Shiori Rambling

After one too many thread derailments, I think that it's time for yet another thread about everyone's favorite (or least favorite) low self-esteemed school girl! emot-dance

Here you can discuss all the questions that I'm sure are on everyone's mind. Why is she the way she is? Why does everyone hate her so much? Does she really love Juri? Is she a lesbian? If she shouldn't be with Juri, then who should she be with? What's her favorite color? What kind of music does she listen to? What are her three sizes? Does she believe in miracles, and that zombies will take over the Earth one day? If she was stuck on an island with one source of food, what would it be? Could she win a fight to the death against Keiko? How many marshmallows can she fit in her mouth? If she were to kill Juri, where would she hide the body? And the most important question of all, how did she manage to get Utena and Anthy to her dorm without telling either of them her name or who she was?

So many mysteries. emot-frown

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#2 | Back to Top10-03-2007 04:36:47 PM

NajiMinkin
Hacker Ringleader
From: The Incredible Edible Egg
Registered: 06-23-2007
Posts: 2537

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

As an answer to your last question, Utena does everything possible to get herself raped and Anthy does everything possible to help her.

As an answer to your tenth, it would be Juri's hopes and dreams.

As I love Shiori-lovers more than Shiori herself, I don't feel I can speculate on much more than that.


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#3 | Back to Top10-03-2007 07:14:54 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

I don't know if Shiori believes that zombies will take over, but if she does she'd be right, because they will and alirias is the leader of their movement. Thankfully she has promised that my brains will remain intact (don't ask about this, it's my brother's fault).

I shall now attempt to address one question seriously, the question of why everyone hates her so much. My own theory on this boils down to two reasons:

1. She hurt Juri, and people like Juri. The reason people like Juri is because they can identify with her experience of unrequited love, and she is pretty and glamorous so by comparing themselves to her in one respect they get to imagine that they are more like her in other respects.

2. She's kind of petty, and while that's forgivable in a real person, fans expect better of their anime characters. It doesn't really matter that in a given situation most people would be likely to act like Shiori than, say, Utena. People don't want to admit that - so her behavior goes from being cruel but on some level understandable to completely reprehensible.

I think in one of the analysis essays on EM, the writer calls her "the most evil character in the series" or something to that extent. I think that's bullshit. She's a relatively ordinary sixteen-year-old girl, one of the most realistic I've ever seen in anime. Now, I don't like her much, but I wouldn't like an ordinary sixteen-year-old girl I met in real life much either (an extraordinary one is another story entirely).


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#4 | Back to Top10-03-2007 07:23:48 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

Razara wrote:

How many marshmallows can she fit in her mouth?

Three less than Juri, poor girl. emot-frown


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#5 | Back to Top10-03-2007 08:06:34 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
Website

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

Razara wrote:

how did she manage to get Utena and Anthy to her dorm without telling either of them her name or who she was?

Anthy already knows who she is and Utena is stupidly, helplessly, retardedly trusting.

'Yes, by all means let's go to a hotel, Akio-san! We can play Othello all night!!! emot-smile emot-smile emot-smile'

Honestly it was probably the prince impulse, Shiori seems visibly perturbed and in need of something, which naturally means UTENA CAN HELP! That cruel innocent Juri bitches so much about.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#6 | Back to Top10-03-2007 08:16:51 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

Razara wrote:

I think that it's time for yet another thread about everyone's favorite (or least favorite) low self-esteemed school girl! emot-dance

But since when does Daria go to Ohtori Academy? emot-biggrin


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#7 | Back to Top10-03-2007 11:25:42 PM

Jellineck
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Under your bed
Registered: 08-02-2007
Posts: 894

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

SHIORI-SAMA SENDS ME MESSAGES IN MY DREAMS TELLING ME TO DEVOUR THE FLESH OF HER NONBELIEVERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

A-hem.


"You said you would do anything for me, right Mamiya?" Mikage purred as he slithered close. "Yes that's right" Mamiya said with a rosey blush. Mikage's smile was evil and cinister as he reached into his pocket and pulled out a banana. "Eeny meeny myny moo. I wonder where my banana will go?" - The Forbidden Passions of Nemuro

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#8 | Back to Top10-04-2007 12:22:42 AM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
Website

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

ShatteredMirror wrote:

I think in one of the analysis essays on EM, the writer calls her "the most evil character in the series" or something to that extent. I think that's bullshit. She's a relatively ordinary sixteen-year-old girl, one of the most realistic I've ever seen in anime. Now, I don't like her much, but I wouldn't like an ordinary sixteen-year-old girl I met in real life much either (an extraordinary one is another story entirely).

I was about to say some of the sixteen year old girls I've known throughout my life are quite possibly the evilest people I've ever met, and I say that with complete sincerity. Now, obviously, they aren't the most evil people in the world, simply the ones I've come across. Even if this paints Shiori as being more "normal" then some of the idealized characters, if we are weighing her actions against the rest of the casts', it paints her in a very unflattering light.


Flowers without names blooming in the field can only sway in the wind. But I was born with a destiny of roses, born to live in passion and glory.

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Hat Mafia Member: Little Dark Poet

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#9 | Back to Top10-04-2007 12:59:10 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

ShatteredMirror wrote:

I shall now attempt to address one question seriously, the question of why everyone hates her so much. My own theory on this boils down to two reasons:

1. She hurt Juri, and people like Juri. The reason people like Juri is because they can identify with her experience of unrequited love, and she is pretty and glamorous so by comparing themselves to her in one respect they get to imagine that they are more like her in other respects.

2. She's kind of petty, and while that's forgivable in a real person, fans expect better of their anime characters. It doesn't really matter that in a given situation most people would be likely to act like Shiori than, say, Utena. People don't want to admit that - so her behavior goes from being cruel but on some level understandable to completely reprehensible.

I think in one of the analysis essays on EM, the writer calls her "the most evil character in the series" or something to that extent. I think that's bullshit. She's a relatively ordinary sixteen-year-old girl, one of the most realistic I've ever seen in anime. Now, I don't like her much, but I wouldn't like an ordinary sixteen-year-old girl I met in real life much either (an extraordinary one is another story entirely).

I think that's a fair enough assessment, really. I've never been quite able to cotton on to why I don't really like Shiori much one way or another -- I found her Black Rose Arc story interesting, and I like the story arc of Ruka/Juri/Shiori/Ruka, but of the characters themselves? Only Ruka struck a chord with me. I personally think now it's just because I don't particularly identify with either Juri or Shiori, so the whole thing lacks the emotional impact for me that it has for others. I tend to get more antsy when people dismiss Mikage's arc as being "largely unnecessary" (have seen something like that in someone's otherwise excellent review emot-mad) or say Nanami's just a callous shallow child (I mean, she is, but that's the point!). So, from that viewpoint...Shiori's character is designed to be the way it is, with certain flaws and certain snags. All of the characters are; this is why we all love the show so damn much. It's complex as hell. We simply don't have it in ourselves to love all the characters the same, or even like them in same cases. Although Shiori's place in the narrative is undeniably necessary, and I would never wish her removed from it, because I am an emotionally retarded (Nemuro) passionate intellectual (Mikage) ordinary girl (Wakaba) drama queen (Nanami), there are just other characters I will latch on to in preference to Shiori. And I think it's just the way I am. That's probably why the subject of Shiori can get so sensitive...because if you identify with a character, people character-bashing is like a personal attack. But in the end, it's just a show. emot-keke

...that we all obsess about on a regular basis. school-devil I do wonder, though, what happened once the series was over and Shiori started fencing. I'd like to know how her fans thought her character was likely to develop after that.


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#10 | Back to Top10-04-2007 05:13:45 AM

Mylene
Fighting Evil By Moonlight
From: Next to Paradox
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 3704

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

While waiting for this thread (I didn't want to further derail the other one), I wrote the following about Shiori in my blog so I wouldn't risk forgetting anything I had on my mind.  Might as well c&p it here.

Cerise's Blog wrote:

I find it interesting that my very first post regarding Revolutionary Girl Utena (my favorite anime) is regarding a character that I feel a sense of ambivalence towards. However, there was recently a thread derailed on IRG that led to some discussion, and not wanting to further derail the thread nor start up a new one on my own, I reminded myself that I have a blog, I should probably make use of it from time to time.

In the derailed thread, someone referred to Shiori as a cruel bitch. This led me to start contemplating what I felt was both the truth and the falsehood in such a statement. Bear with me here, I haven’t rewatched Utena in a year or two, I’ve only seen it twice (I tend to talk about it more than actually watch it–I plan to change that once I move), and the DVDs are in a box at the new house, so I don’t have any access to it at this time.

Is Shiori a cruel bitch? Yes, no and maybe. Shiori is cruel. Shiori can be perceived as a bitch. When you manipulate the mind of your dearest friend, the person that you admire and yet at the same time hate, you are being cruel. There are people who get angry that Shiori often gets off worse than equally manipulative male characters in the series. I believe there is a reason for this, and it’s not necessarily the sexist discrimination that people might think.

Akio and the other male characters seem to form their manipulative relationships simply to have people to manipulate. There does not seem to be any true affection for their targets. Sure, these people may very well be in love with or seduced by them (Kanae, Utena, and even Anthy), but that does not mean that the male in this figure sees them as anything more than a pawn. Yes, this is cruel. This the sign of a manipulative jerk, but there is something very different with Shiori.

Shiori does in fact care for Juri. She cares for her so much that it hurts. I do believe that she thought Juri had feelings for Ruka–I think that’s the only logical reason she would “steal” him away. However, it could be that she did know Juri was in love with her and “stole” Ruka in order to hurt her. I honestly can’t remember which way it was, but it was definitely one of the two. In today’s society, that would make her a “bitch.” But if one looks at the reasons behind it, an inability to come to grips with her feelings of love, admiration, and jealousy of Juri, it makes sense that she would react in such a bizarre, and yes, cruel manner. She’s being torn between such contradictory emotions, that it’s likely she can only find one way to get rid of that dichotomy; she chooses to do so by lashing out and trying to hurt the one she loves. Was that the correct choice? It’s difficult to say. After all, the complete opposite would have to become completely devoted, almost as if she were Tsuwabuki, or in a better comparison in my opinion, perhaps Tomoyo of Cardcaptor Sakura.

This was an incredibly cruel way to be, and yet, I can’t begrudge her for it. She acted in the way that felt “good.” Jealousy is a very painful emotion to bear, and to expunge it by in a sense expunging one’s love probably helped to at the very least hide the agony of her contradictory feelings for Juri. It is so easy to ‘detest’ someone that always overshadows your own achievements. I can relate to Shiori in that way. I find myself bubbling up with loathing when someone, even a close friend, surpasses me. As I get older, it’s much easier to cope with, and I understand the feeling; however, when I was younger, I did not understand the feeling and likely just thought I ‘hated’ those people, burying deep the feelings of admiration.

So why is Shiori seen as the ultimate evil in Utena? Is it due to a proposed “discrimination” against female characters acting in manipulative ways? It’s only ‘good’ when it’s done by a hot bishounen? I don’t think so. I do believe she’s being perceived very differently than say, Akio, but I don’t feel it’s necessarily because she’s a girl. I think it’s because she was a friend of the person betrayed. Juri wasn’t her pawn as Utena was for Akio. Juri was her dear friend, and she hurt her. That’s something anyone can relate to, and therefore the cruelty (though technically lesser of the two) resounds the most and feels the worse. Most people have been the one at both the giving and receiving ends of such treatment to some degree. And given just how much it hurts to receive such treatment, it’s no wonder that only a select few will admit to themselves that they’ve been the giver and truly realize the ways in which they relate to Shiori. Cruelty to the ones we love is not something we want to admit to, ever, and some avoid doing so to such a strong degree that they lash out at characters who embody such behavior. Shiori is such a character, and therefore she is detested.

I don’t necessarily like Shiori, but I do not dislike her. She is crucial in the growth of Juri, and she’s a character that embodies a lot of the spirit of the teenage girl. They are cruel creatures, even if unintentionally. Shiori provides the proper balance in Utena by being that girl, the one who lets her emotions rather than her ideals (Utena) lead her. The girl that so many are at that age–and older.

Take with a grain of salt any "details" I put in there, because frankly I don't remember them all that well.  If I've totally misjudged her feelings for Juri, just ignore the post entirely.  I'll be rewatching the series sometime this fall or winter, so I'll get the details straightened out then if I'm way off base.

But anyway, that's sort of the way I see her.  Really, I think I might even somewhat like her, but I won't know until viewing 3 for sure.  I need a refresher before I start saying "I like [insert character] that I didn't used to know what I felt about."

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#11 | Back to Top10-04-2007 12:48:07 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

Ragnarok wrote:

Razara wrote:

How many marshmallows can she fit in her mouth?

Three less than Juri, poor girl. emot-frown

Can't... Stop... Laughing... emot-gonk

ShatteredMirror wrote:

1. She hurt Juri, and people like Juri. The reason people like Juri is because they can identify with her experience of unrequited love, and she is pretty and glamorous so by comparing themselves to her in one respect they get to imagine that they are more like her in other respects.

I agree. Juri's popularity, and the fact that her experience can be easily related to the experience of the viewers.

As far as the subject of Shiori being put in a worse light because the person she hurt was a friend, I do agree that that does make what she did seem much worse, but she isn't the only one who did something like that, either. Touga loves Nanami, and yet he manipulated her as well. Of course, one could say that what Shiori did was still worse because she did it for selfish reasons... Actually, I can't seem to remember if Touga's intentions were selfish, or not, but whatever.

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#12 | Back to Top10-04-2007 02:55:37 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
Website

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

Razara wrote:

Why is she the way she is?

THE DRUGS.

Why does everyone hate her so much?

I'm not trying to say that people are like Shiori, and I'm not trying to claim that I understand how people work. But I personally believe that everyone can see a little bit of themselves in Shiori, and a little bit of themselves in Juri. The difference is that Juri, while tragic, is still a 'heroic' character, and her flaw is hardly one to stand out. People want to relate to Juri. But Shiori represents the negative emotions in all of us. We see in her the person we try so hard to suppress, the person that we'd hate to let show. So we lash out.

Does she really love Juri?

For me, that's the hardest question in all of SKU. I still can't decide. I think she loves who Juri is, but because of the same reasons, she hates her. True, all love can be laced with hate sometimes... but I don't think Shiori loves Juri for Juri. She loves the idea of Juri more than anything else.

Is she a lesbian?

I want to scream "YES! YES! YES!"*, but probably not. She never really shows interest in women outside of Juri, and even with Juri it isn't really about physical attraction.

*All the more reason for Shiori to become lesbian.

If she shouldn't be with Juri, then who should she be with?

Her Shiori Squad of course!

What's her favorite color?

I'm going to say purple. It's funny, because my favorite colors are purple and orange. emot-dance

What kind of music does she listen to?

I think she alternates between bluegrass, synth-pop, and German death metal.

What are her three sizes?

"36-24-36... only if she's 5'3~" (ashamed to know all the lyrics.)

Does she believe in miracles, and that zombies will take over the Earth one day?

I've wondered before if Shiori truly believes in miracles, or if it was just another tactic to hurt Juri. But in the end, I think she does. It's one, if only one, ounce of faith. In regards to zombies, I believe that they will, so I hope she does, too.

If she was stuck on an island with one source of food, what would it be?

The flesh of the living. Or rose hips stewed in brandy.

Could she win a fight to the death against Keiko?

Wow, actually, that's a great question. I'm not sure! Shiori can definitely pull better mind tricks ("Haha, your boyfriend died, and I was still screwing his lights out!") and could probably handle the sword a bit better, but Keiko would be more brutal, and I don't doubt that she's more physically capable.

How many marshmallows can she fit in her mouth?

I'm eager to find out. etc-love

If she were to kill Juri, where would she hide the body?

A few years ago, when everything I wrote was painfully morbid and depressing and horrible, I wrote a fic in which Shiori beat Juri within an inch of her life with a baseball bat, then killed herself in the bathtub. I don't know if Juri finally died afterwards, I didn't really give the story a solid ending. So long as people fucked and died, I was happy. emot-tongue

And the most important question of all, how did she manage to get Utena and Anthy to her dorm without telling either of them her name or who she was?

Obviously she promised that Akio was baking them a cake. emot-rolleyes

Last edited by dollface (12-07-2009 05:40:21 PM)


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#13 | Back to Top10-04-2007 04:04:15 PM

Jellineck
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Under your bed
Registered: 08-02-2007
Posts: 894

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

I think the element that intrigues me most about Shiori, personally, is her duality between the two female roles brought up in the series: the princess and the witch. Though not to the extent as Anthy, different people regard her under different labels. She is not very easy to classify. Both cruel and vulnerable, innocent and experienced, shallow and deep.

Juri obviously sees her as a princess, in need of being rescued mostly from her own caprices. This is rather true. I wish we could have seen more of what made Shiori the way she is, because it wouldn't have surprised me if she was abused or bullied. Whatever it is, something has stunted her emotional growth and has made it difficult to form healthy friendships or trusting emotional bonds. From what we know, Juri is her only real and close friend. She is described as being 'quiet', and most of the girls do not take her side in the fight with Ruka. She seems pleasant enough socially, but nothing exceptional or particularly engaging. Just a polite, demure, somewhat distant girl.

She can't believe that Juri would perceive her as someone beautiful and worthy, because she does not perceive herself as important at all. And the rest of the world seems to reinforce that image by praising Juri and ignoring her. Guilt leads her to think of herself as morally corrupt, and unfortunately the more her ego dwindles, the crueler and more desperate she becomes.

She is the type of person to whom the slightest insult can destroy her completely, but has tremendous difficulty in accepting positive reinforcement in a healthy way. Instead, she can only function on a twisted and quite sexual level. Her sexuality is what interests me particularly, and not because I'm a pervert (well, not only that). She is quite clearly a sexually driven person, though she can't express that aggressively like Kozue because she doesn't have the confidence and fears rejection. Instead, it has to come passive-aggressively.

When she deals with Juri, she does not emphasize the emotional aspect of manipulation. Rather, it is mostly sexual. When she approaches her during the Black Rose arc, she strokes her cheek and makes a very big deal of capitalizing on Juri's physical desire. She puts on a show. She wants to be loved and desired, but can't find the capacity to return the favor. Additionally, she needs very little coaxing from her prince to have sex. In full view of Akio, who's a complete stranger. I like that. I like sexually driven female characters, because god knows they're understood.

Then comes along Ruka, who gives her everything she could hope for. Mainly, compliments and attention. The feeling that she is someone unique and special. For once, her identity is not centered solely on Juri. She is not the shadow of the lioness, but rather a princess to someone she considers her savior. Poor Shiori. Really, she seems manipulative and petty around Ruka, but it comes from her genuine and unfortunate drive to truly be loved. Juri sees this, and it only increases her sad obsession. She knows that Shiori will destroy herself. That's what is so addictive about her, after all. Her desire to be wanted mixed with her inevitable appetite for self-destruction (which she perceives as innocence).

Then, irony of ironies, Ruka shatters all those conceptions with just a few simple words. In essence, he turns the very worst of herself back on her (manipulation, pettiness, cruelty, etc). The punishment fit for a witch. He takes very special care to sleep with her as well just so she's feel worse later, which in my opinion is a symbol of the stigma that sexual women in SKU face.

To Ruka and to most of the viewers, she is a witch on par with Anthy, with none of the subtlety. Cruel, deceptive, jealous, and spoiled. To Juri, she is the misunderstood and infinitely tragic princess who needs someone to show her the way. Of course, as with most people, the true answer falls somewhere in the middle.

I can't say that I really resent Shiori haters too much. If it weren't for the controversy surrounding her, she wouldn't be as interesting as a character. Still fascinating, but a lot of the reasons why people hate Shiori and love Ruka are quite revealing about the fanbase and society in general. Like Anthy, she really mirrors the viewer, and it is difficult to define her and her actions.


"You said you would do anything for me, right Mamiya?" Mikage purred as he slithered close. "Yes that's right" Mamiya said with a rosey blush. Mikage's smile was evil and cinister as he reached into his pocket and pulled out a banana. "Eeny meeny myny moo. I wonder where my banana will go?" - The Forbidden Passions of Nemuro

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#14 | Back to Top10-04-2007 05:08:28 PM

NajiMinkin
Hacker Ringleader
From: The Incredible Edible Egg
Registered: 06-23-2007
Posts: 2537

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

Very good description, Jellineck! etc-love
I'm working on that MySpace page as we speak, by the way, though as you can see by my post here, I won't be portraying Utena in the most complimentary light. emot-rolleyes

I'd also like to say that I just found a dead bird and am feeling angry at and inferior to my new "best friend," who in turn stole the guy she thought I liked and talks about how scary I am with the faceless masses.
There really is a little Shiori in all of us. emot-tongue But I love it.

Now, I have another question for the list:
What do you think of Movie!Shiori?


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#15 | Back to Top10-04-2007 05:33:53 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
Website

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

Movie!Shiori is the sexiest thing to walk the earth.

Actually, when I had just started to become obsessed with Shiori, I wasn't that fond of Movie!Shiori. But I realized that after I'd put so much time into analyzing Shiori, why should I just give up on Movie!Shiori? I think that I kind of see her in an... odd light. Not a bad light, but not really the way others have described her to me. But anyway, I love her. Maybe later I'll talk more in-depth.

Last edited by dollface (12-07-2009 05:41:12 PM)


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#16 | Back to Top10-04-2007 05:38:35 PM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

Great opinions all around. I will just add something regarding Ruka and why he is loved while Shiori tends to be the object of many fans' fury despite their similar tactics. It is often said that heroes are best served dead. The archetype of the hero who dies trying to protect or save someone is deeply engraved in the fabric of the series itself, Dios could be seen as a mythological paradigm of this image of epic sacrfice. Ruka dies (or we hear of his death, at any rate) shortly after the convoluted affair with Shiori and Juri. Since he had been sick for quite a while and appears to have left the hospital with the sole purpose of acting as a sacrifice for the sake of Juri (this being disputable) makes his actions appear, in retrospect, as a truly selfless deed. Shiori, on the other hand, avoids becoming truly tragic because she survives. The very fact that she comes out of the whole ordeal very much alive is enough to trigger something like survival guilt by proxy, for lack of a better term. Just like the idea of Dios achieves the status of "prince-ness" partially because of his demise (or disappearance, at any rate), so does Ruka gain an heroic aura by dying.
What I find interesting is the parallel between Ruka and Anthy. Ruka's sacrifice tends to hit a chord with the audience, Anthy's sacrifice that is arguably much greater does not meet with much sympathy. It has been said that the hatred Shiori causes has something to with gender perception and the onus of guilt that females tend to carry instead of their male counterparts, perhaps another illustration of this is the fact that a male sacrifice is heroic in nature and praised to no end while a female sacrifice is seen as an act of selfishness that results in pain for everyone. The male sacrifice fades into a pretty sunset and carried a necessarily sweetened memory of what it truly was in factuality, the female sacrifice remains in perpetual repetition and is denied closure.

I agree that one of the reasons why Shiori is so hated has something to with how she illustrates a part of ourselves that we would better deny, keep hidden or simply smother to death. In this she reminds me a bit of Shinji from Eva.

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#17 | Back to Top10-04-2007 05:47:27 PM

Jellineck
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Under your bed
Registered: 08-02-2007
Posts: 894

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

Very good description, Jellineck!
I'm working on that MySpace page as we speak, by the way, though as you can see by my post here, I won't be portraying Utena in the most complimentary light.

Thank you and thank you! I have the feeling if we progress far enough, we may generate enough interest to gain some other players. Seriously, a functioning Utena RP would be the best thing ever. Come on, Razara and dollface. Shiori is open for playing.

Movie!Shiori is the sexiest thing to walk the earth.

Yes! Like I've said, I've always had a thing for alluring ambitious women in art. It took me awhile to warm to the new version, but I then I essentially realized it was all the manipulative talents of Shiori mixed with the sexual confidence of Kozue. Plus, she's a looker.

I agree that one of the reasons why Shiori is so hated has something to with how she illustrates a part of ourselves that we would better deny, keep hidden or simply smother to death. In this she reminds me a bit of Shinji from Eva.

Excellent parallel. Shinji is another one of my favorite characters in all of Anime, simply because his makers dared to make him unattractive in his authenticity.


"You said you would do anything for me, right Mamiya?" Mikage purred as he slithered close. "Yes that's right" Mamiya said with a rosey blush. Mikage's smile was evil and cinister as he reached into his pocket and pulled out a banana. "Eeny meeny myny moo. I wonder where my banana will go?" - The Forbidden Passions of Nemuro

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#18 | Back to Top10-04-2007 06:28:28 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

I have so much to say, but now enough time to say it. emot-gonk

dollface wrote:

Razara wrote:

If she were to kill Juri, where would she hide the body?

A few years ago, when everything I wrote was painfully morbid, I wrote a fanfic in which Shiori beat Juri within an inch of her life with a baseball bat, then killed herself in the bathtub. I don't know if Juri finally died afterwards, I didn't really give the story a solid ending. So long as people fucked and died, I was happy.

I read that fanfiction a while ago, and I really enjoyed it. (Yeah, I'm kind of sadistic when it comes to Juri...) I went on a fanfiction re-reading spree about a month ago, but for some reason, all your fanfictions have vanished from the face of the Earth. It might just be fanfiction.net being glitchy, or something, though.

Jellineck wrote:

Thank you and thank you! I have the feeling if we progress far enough, we may generate enough interest to gain some other players. Seriously, a functioning Utena RP would be the best thing ever. Come on, Razara and dollface. Shiori is open for playing.

I'm tempted, since I've always wanted to do an SKU roleplay. My only concern is that I've already had my hopes and dreams of being apart of an SKU roleplay get crushed once due to a lack of people willing to join. That and I've heard horror stories about roleplays on MySpace. (I really do need to make an account one of these days, but the fact that the name "Razara" is taken killed what little interest I had.)


I'll ramble on more about Shiori tomorrow.

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#19 | Back to Top10-04-2007 07:15:26 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
Website

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

No, I deleted everything I've ever written from FF.net. It's all so horrible, I don't even want to be associated with it.


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#20 | Back to Top10-04-2007 07:25:48 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

After Thorns of Death/Episode 17; does Shiori know that her picture is in Juri's locket? Supposedly, all the Black Rose Duellists forget about their duels, drawing out the soul swords and going to see Mikage. Is there anything later on in the series which indicates Shiori remembers opening the locket? Or anything to say she didn't? While I've always assumed she forgot, there's nothing I can think of to support that.

Another thing. How cruel/manipulative is Shiori really? What has she really done which is so horrible? She "lied" to the brown haired boy in order to "steal" him from Juri. It's not as if he and Juri had been dating, though. It wasn't an affair, Shiori didn't seduce him against his better judgement. She said something she believed was a lie (and which was actually the truth) in order to sway the boy's attention from Juri to herself. It was underhanded and the motivation for it was all wrong (and the most damning part of it, I think) but it's hardly anything compared to what genuine manipulators like Touga are capable of. Further, at the time this happend Shiori was closer to thirteen than sixteen.

What else has she done? She lied to Ruka about the sword polishing, and... oh! She plucks one of Anthy's flowers when Ruka challenges Utena; and looks all smirky self-satisfied up until Ruka dumps her. Is there more than that?


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

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#21 | Back to Top10-04-2007 07:38:15 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

dollface wrote:

No, I deleted everything I've ever written from FF.net. It's all so horrible, I don't even want to be associated with it.

I liked your writing. emot-frown Plus, one of the descriptions and comments inside of your fanfiction made me think, "Wow, this person actually likes Shiori!" way back before I knew that people like that existed.

I might have mentioned this before, I did something like that with something that I hadn't even published. I was just really paranoid that someone might find it and read it. It did suck, since I was still getting the hang of writing, but I worked on it for months, and I had 180 pages of whatever came to mind before I deleted it. I still want to read it again so badly, and I've thought about rewriting it again, but I think that I have too much common sense now. The only thing I have left of it is the unfinished last chapter, since I was going to turn it into a separate story. Of course, getting tendenitous stopped that.


(I still have so much stuff to say about Shiori, but I should wait until tomorrow.)

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#22 | Back to Top10-04-2007 09:17:05 PM

Mylene
Fighting Evil By Moonlight
From: Next to Paradox
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 3704

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

Razara wrote:

As far as the subject of Shiori being put in a worse light because the person she hurt was a friend, I do agree that that does make what she did seem much worse, but she isn't the only one who did something like that, either. Touga loves Nanami, and yet he manipulated her as well.

Big brothers were made to torture little sisters.

Last edited by Cerise (10-04-2007 09:17:43 PM)

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#23 | Back to Top10-04-2007 09:50:31 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

Many people, including me, hate characters who have qualities they hate in themselves, but leaving that aside, she seems like a cross between Anthy and Wakaba. All three in love with Princes who don't love them. Wakaba was building her self-esteem to some extant on Saionji's misery but no one has ever criticized her for it. Compared to Anthy Shiori is stupider, and less classy, but also has more animal vitality.

All of the Setokai are false Princes to someone and Shiori has two false Princes - Juri and Ruka. That should cut her some slack.

I also disagree with the attitude that she is merely common. Juri probably saw something princess-like in her in the first place. Her purple hair puts her on somewhat the same level as Anthy - assuming that purple signifies royalty and not somethng else.

Both Juri and Shiori seem to be out of touch with their own hearts. Placing blame is pointless.

For my final disconnected thought, instead of always asking whether Shiori "loves" (in whatever sense) Juri, does Juri really love Shiori or is she just on an ego trip a bit like Utena.

Last edited by brian (10-04-2007 09:55:12 PM)

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#24 | Back to Top10-04-2007 10:25:24 PM

Alithea
Dark Whisperer
From: Westminster, CO
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 1152
Website

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

1. Why is she the way she is? Why is anyone the way they are? I think you could debate that question until the end of time and still never come up with an answer that is acceptable to everyone. I think a lot of the way Shiori is comes from circumstance and the fact that she’s a boarding school kid, which can’t be easy, especially for someone who is just a shade of hair color away from being a normal girl.

Why does everyone hate her so much? This too can be greatly debated. People hate her because she is cruel and did a very mean thing. People hate her because she hurt their favorite character. People hate too because they can see themselves in her eyes and it scares them to death. People hate her because it’s easier than trying to understand the reasons why Shiori is the way she is. And people hate her because she does make a great villain.

Does she really love Juri? In my opinion I think there was a time when she did really love Juri. Through the way the world works and because she and Juri just have poor communication (derived from fear) that love turned to loathing. Do I think she could find herself in love with Juri again? Most certainly, but I believe in second chances.

Is she a lesbian? I tend to lean toward yes just because all the men she ends up with in the show, she is with to either cause someone else pain or because she convinces herself that that is what she should want. I would also say there is a fairly decent chance that Shiori is bisexual.

If she shouldn't be with Juri, then who should she be with? My favorite choice for a long time was Kozue, but now that I think about, Shiori could probably use someone like Wakaba. She needs that kind of energy I think.

What's her favorite color? I bet it’s orange, and you can take that whoever you like, but I bet it’s orange.

What kind of music does she listen to? In public she listens to whatever everyone else is listening to. In private she has tons of mixed tapes filled with songs from indy and underground rock groups.

What are her three sizes? Oh I’m terrible at that game, and it doesn’t help that in my head she’s shorter than she actually is on the show.

Does she believe in miracles, and that zombies will take over the Earth one day? No, I think she believes in the idea of miracles. If she actually believed then her wish would come true. I do think that she has hope and perhaps even hope that one day she will believe in miracles. I can’t speak to the zombies.

If she was stuck on an island with one source of food, what would it be? I’m gonna go with bacon cheese burgers.

Could she win a fight to the death against Keiko? Yes, I think in her Black Rose form she could defeat Keiko. In fact if it came down to it I think that in a competition death match between the Black Rose Duelists it would probably come down to Shiori and Kozue. Kozue would probably win, but that’s just because I think she was meant to be Akio’s protégé.

How many marshmallows can she fit in her mouth? 15

If she were to kill Juri, where would she hide the body? I think she’d dump the body in one of the school ponds, and yes, it would be weighted down.

And the most important question of all, how did she manage to get Utena and Anthy to her dorm without telling either of them her name or who she was? The magically powers of the Rose Bride.


"The only reason to write is to write for love. Write for passion. If you have the privilege of being able to write, then don't do it for any other reason." - Stephen Sondheim

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#25 | Back to Top10-05-2007 04:05:06 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: On-Topic Shiori Rambling

Razara wrote:

Why does everyone hate her so much?

My point of view on this is that I don't like her because I wouldn't like her in real life. I posted about this a long while ago, but I've never really explained my reasons, so I'll try and get a bit more into them. When I watch her, I end up seeing her as weak and codependent, two things I could never stand to be and hate seeing in people I know (and end up giving people hours of analysis to help them get over it, sometimes even successfully). I don't like it when people thoughtlessly hurt others. I don't like it when people blame others for their problems. I don't like it when people enjoy the suffering of others. All of these are characteristics Akio shares, except one, and that's the worst one-- the thoughtlessness that the characters in the series refer to as 'innocence'. I don't see it as innocence because if a person in real life were to display that behavior, it's because either they can't understand the effects of their actions, or because they're actively trying not to understand it. I have big problems with both of these; if you can't understand what you're doing, you shouldn't be hurting people, or if you're trying not to understand what you're doing, you aren't doing it right.

...so in my world, I don't like Shiori because she doesn't know what she's doing, and it would be all better if she figured out exactly what and why before she hurt anyone. Also, she needs to enjoy it more. If you're going to hurt someone, do it right.

This seems like justifying, but it doesn't really fit anywhere else-- I don't even really like Juri. I mean, I'd jump at the chance to bang her, because I think she'd be a tigress in the sack, but I don't really have much use for angst. I'm very neutral toward her.


Razara wrote:

Why is she the way she is?

Honestly, I think you guys do a great job of explaining that out. Seriously, I'm really glad to see all of the insightful things you say about her, and while I would have points to argue at times, for the most part I think you're spot on.

Razara wrote:

Does she really love Juri?

In my opinion, I think love is the wrong word for what any of the characters feel for any other character, except at the very end between Utena and Anthy. There are certainly feelings there, but love, to me, is a very specific condition that none of the rest really meet.

Razara wrote:

Is she a lesbian?

I vote bisexual. Her fixation on Juri doesn't seem to be sexually driven at all, though it's one of those things that could become that way.


Also, I posted here to say hello to my little mistress. Have you been good, dear? school-devil


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