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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top10-01-2007 10:20:31 AM

Stephanie
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Last Episode in TV Series

Hello, I just finished watching all of Utena episodes today (after downloading all that ogm files) though, still downloading the movie..

As you might know, I am down in the dumps.. emot-frown

I got a couple of questions for the last episode..

1.) Did Utena really died in the end? emot-gonk *sob* *sob *sob*

2.) Why the HECK did Anthy pierced a sword through her, even if 'she' wasn't a 'he' prince? (I just can't understand Anthy's logic.. Doesn't she care about her!? emot-mad )

3.) If Utena DID die in the TV series, why is Anthy looking for her?




Waaaa****!!! OMG I am sooo lost!! I am so feeling numb, why would Utena die!? emot-frown


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#2 | Back to Top10-01-2007 10:49:53 AM

Ashnod
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Stephanie wrote:

Hello, I just finished watching all of Utena episodes today (after downloading all that ogm files) though, still downloading the movie..

As you might know, I am down in the dumps.. emot-frown

I got a couple of questions for the last episode..

1.) Did Utena really died in the end? emot-gonk *sob* *sob *sob*

2.) Why the HECK did Anthy pierced a sword through her, even if 'she' wasn't a 'he' prince? (I just can't understand Anthy's logic.. Doesn't she care about her!? emot-mad )

3.) If Utena DID die in the TV series, why is Anthy looking for her?




Waaaa****!!! OMG I am sooo lost!! I am so feeling numb, why would Utena die!? emot-frown

Well - the unfortunate thing is that in a series so packed with metaphor and symbolism, nothing is ever concretely or conclusively answered. Especially the ending.

1) I personally don't think Utena died in physical sense, any more than Anthy would have died had she really been inside a coffin that plummeted from the top of the Dueling Arena.  What happened to her after the final duel is forever a mystery as far as the anime goes. There are many competing theories on what happened to Utena after the anime, including that she was killed, but as far as I know the Be-Papas have been forever silent on the truth of the ending.

The manga is a little more concrete - Anthy tells Touga that Utena IS alive and when she eventually finds her the world will finally gets its revolution.

2) Ultimately, in my opinion, Anthy betrays Utena because she is loyal to her brother. Try not to think of Anthy as a young girl so much as an ancient, jaded witch kept forever young in appearance. This is the witch willing to endure the world's hatred for the sake of her brother, pretended to be Mamiya for who knows how long, and was also willing to pretend to be a loyal, subservient doll to whomever was the Victor.  Stabbing Utena so that Akio's (and hers) carefully laid plan comes to fruition was probably amongst the easiest of her darker actions to perform.  If that isn't enough, Utena sleeping with Akio would have made it a lot easier, since by doing so she is betraying both herself (her nobility, her "princeliness," and her morality) and Anthy. It's unlikely that Anthy was capable of seeing Utena as the one who might actually free her after Utena was with Akio.

3) If Utena DID die, then in my opinion Anthy isn't looking for her so much as she is going to attempt to live up to what Utena believed she could be, now free of Akio. If she didn't die, then obviously yes, she's looking for her.


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#3 | Back to Top10-01-2007 10:51:34 AM

Maarika
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

If you're willing to wait then you'll get answer to those questions along with an indepth analysis of the ending. That's because as soon as the new gallery is online I'm going to make very good use of Gio's screencaps and post a thread about the last two episodes (it'll be group discussion).

But till then, here are short answers to your questions:

1) Nope. No one died in the end. or if you want a metaphor, then they all died and were reborn.
2) Anthy did it out of self-loathing. Thinking she didn't deserve to be saved. And because she wanted Utena to stop before she'd suffer even more (to stop her from taking the swords instead of her).
3) See number one.

edit: I was beaten. >_<

Last edited by Maarika (10-01-2007 10:51:53 AM)


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#4 | Back to Top10-01-2007 10:53:57 AM

Ashnod
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Maarika wrote:

edit: I was beaten. >_<

That's okay, because we are offering different views on Anthy. emot-biggrin


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#5 | Back to Top10-01-2007 10:58:24 AM

Stephanie
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Akio said Utena died, the Anthy was like, "Would you stop living in your coffin?" And she went away to look for Utena-sama.

*Sigh* this anime is WAAAYYYY confusing.. <.<


EDIT:
1.) Why is Anthy and Utena considered shoujo or yuri? It wasn't really clear their love for each other, (even though Utena did say Anthy was the one making her happy) in the end, Utena still mumbles Akio's name in her sleep, and she denies what Jury said to her that she may have loved Anthy..

2.) Also, why the heck did Utena continued to date Akio after she saw Akio and Anthy were making loveydovey? o_O

Last edited by Stephanie (10-01-2007 11:08:19 AM)


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#6 | Back to Top10-01-2007 11:08:42 AM

Maarika
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Ashnod wrote:

It's unlikely that Anthy was capable of seeing Utena as the one who might actually free her after Utena was with Akio.

If you think back to episode 37 then it becomes clear that Anthy realised that Utena really thought of her much more than she expected her to. Anthy's suicide attempt indicated that she would rather have it all ended then and there before Utena had to suffer any more on her account. One of my theories is that Anthy had betrayed Utena by offering her to Akio, so she probably hated herself for doing so especially after she found out that Utena had forgiven her and chose her instead of Akio (in the end). Moreover, Utena was still willing to save her (which is the reason why Utena decided to go to the last duel in the end) and Anthy knew that and she was afraid (the major change Utena was trying to bring forth was something unfamiliar and scary to Anthy).
Anthy's stabbing Utena can also be interpreted as her final resignation to her fate (staying with Akio = the never chaning way of life).
Surely, there are tons of reasons behind this scene, not just a single specific reason, but rather a combination of many.

edit:

You sure have many questions.

Stephanie wrote:

1.) Why is Anthy and Utena considered shoujo or yuri? It wasn't really clear their love for each other, (even though Utena did say Anthy was the one making her happy) in the end, Utena still mumbles Akio's name in her sleep, and she denies what Jury said to her that she may have loved Anthy..

Shoujo -  because there's lots of drama. Because it's mainly directed to female audience (as the majority of us on IRG are females). I don't think it is yuri. :/ There was very little yuri content in the series. Unless you count all the subtext. Without that, there's only Juri/Shiori.
Whoa, don't mix up the timelines! The scene with Utena saying she was the happiest when being with Anthy was in the last episode, everything else was way before that. This is her final (and most truthful) realisation about herself and Anthy. Of course she loved Anthy. You don't really go this far if you didn't care for someone that deeply. And Anthy felt the same since she decided to leave Ohtori in the end.

Stephanie wrote:

2.) Also, why the heck did Utena continued to date Akio after she saw Akio and Anthy were making loveydovey? o_O

You're probably referring to the scene where Utena asks Akio out in front of Anthy. It was done out of jealousy and revenge. She wanted to show Anthy that Anthy had treated her awfully, but in the end she still realised that she couldn't be mad at her and that Anthy was also important to her.

Last edited by Maarika (10-01-2007 11:18:32 AM)


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#7 | Back to Top10-01-2007 11:30:36 AM

Ashnod
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Maarika wrote:

If you think back to episode 37 then it becomes clear that Anthy realised that Utena really thought of her much more than she expected her to. Anthy's suicide attempt indicated that she would rather have it all ended then and there before Utena had to suffer any more on her account. One of my theories is that Anthy had betrayed Utena by offering her to Akio, so she probably hated herself for doing so especially after she found out that Utena had forgiven her and chose her instead of Akio (in the end). Moreover, Utena was still willing to save her (which is the reason why Utena decided to go to the last duel in the end) and Anthy knew that and she was afraid (the major change Utena was trying to bring forth was something unfamiliar and scary to Anthy).
Anthy's stabbing Utena can also be interpreted as her final resignation to her fate (staying with Akio = the never chaning way of life).
Surely, there are tons of reasons behind this scene, not just a single specific reason, but rather a combination of many.

That's just one of my thoughts on why Anthy did what she did.

Tthe scene that you're referring to never seemed like Anthy was being honest with Utena to me. I've often thought Anthy's suicide attempt, and her tearful confession, was yet further manipulation on her part to get Utena to continue down the path, something she feared was wavering after Akio's intervention. Or, alternatively, she was fearful that Akio had usurped the place that Anthy had previously held in Utena's heart and the Utena was about to go willingly with Akio's requests. Either way, I don't think Anthy is being selfless in that scene - she had plenty of opportunity prior to the final duel to accurately and thoroughly warn Utena what would happen if she went to the last duel, and did not do it. Even if she is being truly remorseful during her confession, I still think she had every intention of betraying Utena if necessary.

*needs to watch the final episodes again*...


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#8 | Back to Top10-01-2007 11:42:20 AM

Stephanie
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Sorry if I ask lotsa questions! emot-aaa

Just curious, cause I myself am confused.. Yeah I guess because Utena was dating him and all this time Akio and Anthy has been doing their incest loveydovey behind her back..

Thanks for clearing things for me!! *arigatou*

Just LAST ONE question (for today, lol)

1.) why did Akio said Utena is dead?
2.) What did Anthy meant he was still living in his coffin?
3.) Jury's story about the forgotten drowned boy who died saving her sister, was implied to Utena in the end.. Everyone kind of had a faded memory of her, some of the students, that is..


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#9 | Back to Top10-01-2007 11:43:11 AM

Maarika
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Ashnod wrote:

Tthe scene that you're referring to never seemed like Anthy was being honest with Utena to me. I've often thought Anthy's suicide attempt, and her tearful confession, was yet further manipulation on her part to get Utena to continue down the path, something she feared was wavering after Akio's intervention. Or, alternatively, she was fearful that Akio had usurped the place that Anthy had previously held in Utena's heart and the Utena was about to go willingly with Akio's requests. Either way, I don't think Anthy is being selfless in that scene - she had plenty of opportunity prior to the final duel to accurately and thoroughly warn Utena what would happen if she went to the last duel, and did not do it. Even if she is being truly remorseful during her confession, I still think she had every intention of betraying Utena if necessary.

*needs to watch the final episodes again*...

Ah, on the contrary, I belive the suicide attempt scene is one the few scenes where we get a glimpse of the real Anthy. The one manipulating everyone was not Anthy but the Rose Bride/witch (and neither of them is Anthy's real persona). Also, breaking into tears and saying those things to Utena would have been very out of character for a Rose Bride. The maniplative Anthy/Rose Bride does everything passively, not once does she actively interfere in her and Akio's schemes. Every time she does in fact interfere is when she is driven by something from deep within (which is Anthy's true self), for example during Saionji's second duel. Utena plays their game a bit differently (as she's doing it for Anthy's sake most of the time).

Er, I might add more later but my brain is our of order because I need some sleep. Good night!

Last edited by Maarika (10-01-2007 11:43:27 AM)


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#10 | Back to Top10-01-2007 11:58:53 AM

Ashnod
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Maarika wrote:

Ashnod wrote:

Tthe scene that you're referring to never seemed like Anthy was being honest with Utena to me. I've often thought Anthy's suicide attempt, and her tearful confession, was yet further manipulation on her part to get Utena to continue down the path, something she feared was wavering after Akio's intervention. Or, alternatively, she was fearful that Akio had usurped the place that Anthy had previously held in Utena's heart and the Utena was about to go willingly with Akio's requests. Either way, I don't think Anthy is being selfless in that scene - she had plenty of opportunity prior to the final duel to accurately and thoroughly warn Utena what would happen if she went to the last duel, and did not do it. Even if she is being truly remorseful during her confession, I still think she had every intention of betraying Utena if necessary.

*needs to watch the final episodes again*...

Ah, on the contrary, I belive the suicide attempt scene is one the few scenes where we get a glimpse of the real Anthy. The one manipulating everyone was not Anthy but the Rose Bride/witch (and neither of them is Anthy's real persona). Also, breaking into tears and saying those things to Utena would have been very out of character for a Rose Bride. The maniplative Anthy/Rose Bride does everything passively, not once does she actively interfere in her and Akio's schemes. Every time she does in fact interfere is when she is driven by something from deep within (which is Anthy's true self), for example during Saionji's second duel. Utena plays their game a bit differently (as she's doing it for Anthy's sake most of the time).

Er, I might add more later but my brain is our of order because I need some sleep. Good night!

I dunno...I can understand saying that the Rose Bride act isn't the True Anthy, but Anthy IS the Witch. She chose to seal Dios, she chose to bear the burden of Hate. She actively cost Miki his first duel, arguably cost Juri two of them, went to great lengths to get revenge on Nanami, etc.


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#11 | Back to Top10-01-2007 12:00:09 PM

satyreyes
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Stephanie, I'm right there with you emot-smile  That last episode is a doozie.  The first time I watched it, I hated it.  I thought it was an unhappy ending without any real resolution (or rather revolution).  Since then, I've rewatched the series a few times, and the last couple episodes more than a few -- and every time I watch it, the more convinced I become that this was an awesome last episode, that the revolution came, that Utena is alive and that Anthy will find her, and that this is ultimately a happy ending.

I think your specific questions have been answered pretty well by previous posters.  I'd answer your rhetorical question about whether Anthy cares about Utena by saying: Yes, she cares.  She cares very much.  But she has such powerful mixed emotions about Utena.  Anthy loves Utena for being so caring, but hates her for not understanding Anthy's feelings.  She loves her for trying so sincerely to save her, but hates her for not seeing through her brother's cynical scheming (and sleeping with him).  The "You could never have been my prince, because you're a girl" comment was how Anthy justified the stabbing to herself; it's okay to stab my friend in the back because she's been lying to me and herself this whole time about being a prince.  But if Utena had been a boy, I think that scene would've played out the same way.  Anthy would've found some other reason to stab Utena.  Her loyalty to her brother is too ingrained for her to do otherwise.

I think what got to me most powerfully the first time I watched the episode was not the backstabbing or the swords; it was Utena saying, right after "dropping" Anthy at the end, "I'm sorry, Himemiya!  I'm sorry for pretending to be a prince."  That's what convinced me that Utena failed.  These days, I'm positive that Utena thinks she failed because Utena -- pardon -- is totally clueless.  She opened the coffin.  She made the swords stop attacking the Rose Bride.  She got Anthy to take her hand.  Liberating Anthy is central to revolution -- and as evidenced by Anthy leaving Ohtori at the end of the episode, Anthy is eminently liberated.  Utena brought the revolution after all.

Ironically, while Utena did bring the revolution and acted as a true friend, it's never really settled whether she "became a prince."  I think what we're meant to take from Utena's comment above is that being a prince is much, much less important than being a friend.  Being a prince may not even be a desirable goal.  Look at the show's portrayal of Dios.  He's altruistic to a fault, even to the point where he neglects his sister, who wants nothing more than to spend a little time with her dear brother.  He rescues girls the world over at severe personal risk, but can't commit to any of them.  Meanwhile, when Utena is at her most "princely" -- the first arc of the series, where she tries to "rescue" Anthy from the dueling game because it's "the princely thing to do" -- the ultimate moral lesson, which she learns in episode 12, is that she should be more selfish and acknowledge the importance of her own feeling of love for Anthy.  The Utena of the first arc wouldn't have wrestled herself off the ground in the finale, clawed her way to the coffin in spite of a gaping stomach wound, and pried it open while her lover looked on and laughed.  It's cliched, but what ultimately saves Anthy in the finale is Utena's love, not her princeliness.

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#12 | Back to Top10-01-2007 12:21:53 PM

Clarice
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

satyreyes wrote:

I think what got to me most powerfully the first time I watched the episode was not the backstabbing or the swords; it was Utena saying, right after "dropping" Anthy at the end, "I'm sorry, Himemiya!  I'm sorry for pretending to be a prince."  That's what convinced me that Utena failed.  These days, I'm positive that Utena thinks she failed because Utena -- pardon -- is totally clueless.  She opened the coffin.  She made the swords stop attacking the Rose Bride.  She got Anthy to take her hand.  Liberating Anthy is central to revolution -- and as evidenced by Anthy leaving Ohtori at the end of the episode, Anthy is eminently liberated.  Utena brought the revolution after all.

That, to me, was always the saddest thing about the end -- the fact that Utena brought about the revolution in Anthy's life, but didn't know it. Which is why Anthy's leaving the school is uplifting in two ways -- firstly because she's taken upon herself the power to leave, and secondly because she's off to tell Utena about it. As you can imagine, this made me bawl my eyes out. emot-biggrin The tragedy of Utena's character is that although she grew and changed in many different ways through the series, her central innocence never really changed. Utena was convinced she needed to save Anthy herself, never realising that what she had to do was show Anthy the way to do it herself. This is the only reason I like the movie (aside from the fact it's pretty as hell): the movie shows Utena realising this, which is why the metaphor of Utena-as-Car-Anthy-as-Driver is so central to both the movie and series. The major theme of both was that although Utena was necessary to show Anthy the path, Anthy had to walk it herself. Series!Utena didn't realise this; movie!Utena did. Which is sad, but like I said...Anthy's off to find her, have tea, tell her what Utena did for her. It's all good. emot-dance

...I have to say, though, I know so many people who almost recoiled from the ending, saying how miserable it made them because they thought Utena died and whatnot, but I never saw it that way at all (hilarious, considering I am a career cynicist!). I think it's because I followed the best bit of advice I was ever given about the show. A friend said, when I mentioned I was gearing up to watch the end: "Tell you what, as soon as you get to the very very end -- rewind. Back to the start of the previous episode. Watch the opening credits. That's all." So, I got to the end, numb, did as she said...and voila, it crystallised in my mind. The lyrics to that song, seemingly nonsensical and half-formed throughout the show, suddenly make perfect sense at the end. It is the series, in less than two minutes. I always sort of intended to write my thoughts on the end of the series using that song as the basis, kind of like a essay-handerchief for those in tears at the end, but I never got around to it. Ah, well. emot-tongue


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#13 | Back to Top10-01-2007 12:33:34 PM

satyreyes
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Clarice wrote:

"Tell you what, as soon as you get to the very very end -- rewind. Back to the start of the previous episode. Watch the opening credits. That's all."

What excellent, excellent advice!  My first thought, after I internalized what a very good idea this was, was: "I wonder why Ikuhara didn't put the intro song at the end!"  Then I realized he did!  Rose Release, the track that plays over Anthy walking away in the closing credits of the last episode, is a transparent remix of Rinbu Revolution.  That's not much help to us Americans, because we don't know what the song says without subtitles.  But I bet that the words to Rinbu were running through the minds of Ikuhara's Japanese audience when they watched that scene.

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#14 | Back to Top10-01-2007 01:29:43 PM

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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Ashnod wrote:

The manga is a little more concrete - Anthy tells Touga that Utena IS alive and when she eventually finds her the world will finally gets its revolution.

Anthy is the series also seems to believe that Utena is very much alive. She tells Akio that Utena hasn't disappeared/vanished, just that she has left Ohtori.

Stephanie wrote:

1.) why did Akio said Utena is dead?

The fact that Utena didn't appear to have changed anything in her final duel is what makes Akio believe she failed. He doesn't specifically say he thinks she's dead, but that she failed to achieve revolution. It may be that he expected her to carry on similarly to Mikage.

Stephanie wrote:

2.) What did Anthy meant he was still living in his coffin?

That campus of Ohtori is likened to a coffin (shape and all) in that everyone, especially Anthy and Akio, are not truely living. They're held in a state of suspended animation, doomed to repeat their same actions over and over instead of growing and maturing. "If the egg does not hatch, the chick will die without ever having been born." Akio is content with his life in a coffin of his own design, masquerading as the prince he ceased to be so many years ago. But Utena opened Anthy's casket and encouraged her to finally climb out of it/Ohtori and enter the real world.

Stephanie wrote:

3.) Jury's story about the forgotten drowned boy who died saving her sister, was implied to Utena in the end.. Everyone kind of had a faded memory of her, some of the students, that is..

"That's not a question, Professor, but we'll let the viewers judge for themselves."

Utena is forgotten in the end of the series similar to the way Saionji is forgotten before returning during the Black Rose Arc. Some students do remember her, but their memory is fading, showing that she hasn't truely changed their specific lives; hasn't affected them on a real and basic level. If they concentrate, they can still vaguely remember her and what she was like, however the meaning of her behavior is lost on them. The boy in Juri's story is similar in that he specifically did an amazing, selfless and heroic act, yet he's all but forgotten in the end. Dios was once the Prince of the whole world, yet all that remains of him are legends and his corrupt legacy in the form of Akio. Thankfully in Utena's case, Anthy does remember the person, events and, most importantly, what their goal was: to free Anthy from her tortured existence.


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#15 | Back to Top10-01-2007 02:04:34 PM

dollface
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Oh, don't worry about asking a lot, Stephanie! We'd be lying if any of us said that we'd never had questions.

Stephanie wrote:

2.) What did Anthy meant he was still living in his coffin?

I always saw Ohtori as another world. A fantasy. It is a place where you exist because you let yourself exist. To be free of this place is not to die, it is to live. That is why coffins are often used in the series-- Anthy is seen in one as early as the first arc, Utena is seen in one, Touga and Saionji make mention of being "trapped inside", and as you stated, Anthy tells Akio that he is living in one. What do all these scenes have in common? Students are bound to Ohtori for the same reason the duelists can never reach revolution. They force themselves into this miserable role, and thrive on their pain. It is a world of self-imposed suffering, and in the end only you hold the key to leaving your coffin. When little Utena is seen in hers, she wishes to die. She says that there isn't reason to live without something eternal. She has the ability to move on, but not the will; she will be trapped in that coffin unless someone can convince her otherwise. In a sense, that was a foreshadowing of the revolution. The other examples follow a similar path. Anthy clings to the idea that Akio will regain his title as the prince and save her, simply because without it, there is nothing. She knows that without her misery, she has nothing left. Akio still tries to convince Anthy that he will keep this game up, that he will become a prince like he used to, and they will be happy. But in truth, Akio doesn't believe he can, nor does he really want to. Playing God is better than playing prince, amirite? Everyone is trapped in their coffin, because everyone is unable to move on. They don't see reason in striving for something more. It is as Akio once said of Anthy, "...she really might have been, once. But now she's a witch. And she enjoys being a witch." Once upon a time, things might have been different. In relation to Juri's story, it might have been wrong to forget the name of the one who saved you. But now, they all have nothing left. They are trapped in their coffins, and they've actually come to enjoy that.


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#16 | Back to Top10-01-2007 02:24:20 PM

Clarice
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From: New Zealand
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Ragnarok wrote:

Stephanie wrote:

1.) why did Akio said Utena is dead?

The fact that Utena didn't appear to have changed anything in her final duel is what makes Akio believe she failed. He doesn't specifically say he thinks she's dead, but that she failed to achieve revolution. It may be that he expected her to carry on similarly to Mikage.

Bingo. Although to Akio's credit, I think he believed Utena had failed not only because of her last words (that we see), but because Anthy remained in the school and at his side. He doesn't freak out until she walks away from him. He looks somewhat harrassed, as he taps away at his computer (was he working on a new set of letters for a new set of duels? Guess we'll never know!), but it bluescreens of DEATH at him only when Anthy removes her glasses and gives them back to him. Akio pretty much knows he's screwed then, because Anthy took Utena's hand and walked away. Metaphors are fun. emot-keke

Ragnarok wrote:

Utena is forgotten in the end of the series similar to the way Saionji is forgotten before returning during the Black Rose Arc. Some students do remember her, but their memory is fading, showing that she hasn't truely changed their specific lives; hasn't affected them on a real and basic level. If they concentrate, they can still vaguely remember her and what she was like, however the meaning of her behavior is lost on them. The boy in Juri's story is similar in that he specifically did an amazing, selfless and heroic act, yet he's all but forgotten in the end. Dios was once the Prince of the whole world, yet all that remains of him are legends and his corrupt legacy in the form of Akio. Thankfully in Utena's case, Anthy does remember the person, events and, most importantly, what their goal was: to free Anthy from her tortured existence.

I wonder sometimes if it's an indication of the fact that the person most instrumental in the change of one's self is one's self. People are inherently selfish creatures; it's just our nature. In the end, our own lives are the ones we're living; figures we'd be focused on them, yes no? But my point is more that even the greatest deeds do fade with time, and even when someone is bright and shining and oh-so-important one day, they can be gone the next (Wakaba's brief shining time is an example of that, in a minor way).The point is that Anthy remembers her, and that memory has enabled her to change her ways. The other characters? They haven't changed as much...or at least, they haven't changed because of Utena. They still have their own revolutions to work through, and I guess that is what the end scenes are about. They show the characters with the ones who are most able to bring about change in their lives. Utena was Anthy's touchstone, so it's only right Anthy should remember her best.

I suppose it's also a good example of the proverb that no good deed goes unpunished. But that's Dios' motto, too. emot-frown


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#17 | Back to Top10-01-2007 07:04:18 PM

Stephanie
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From: Philippines
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

After the last episode again, and having another go at episodes 37 to 39 again (watching the ending 3 times), yeah, I pretty much understood A LOT better in things in the anime.. n_n

Thank you all for your input!

@Clarice
Wow, cool.. Ending and opening theme huh?
*Checks YouTube*
Rats, there ain't any OP or ED with lyrics..
I'll try to upload after 24 hours.. emot-biggrin

@Dollface
Wow, nicely put in the coffins.. emot-smile




Questions again!
1.) Why'd the swords actually try to attack Utena and Akio after Anthy was saved from it?
(I just find it no reason for it to suddenly atack them)

2.) Now, this is what I really want to know, why do you guys keep insisting Utena is still alive? What is it that make you guys believe? Of course, I want her alive too (I felt numb when I found out she died in my first reaction and quickly went here w/o thinking or wasting a second to make me be satisfied). I just don't see any proof she could've been alive in that situation, though Anthy and Akio are both weirdly alive after the incident either..

3.) Did Anthy reincarnated? When she was young, she got thousands of swords pierced through her, or was is just a symbolism? (Though I do remember Anthy asking Utena if she believes in Reincarnation)




Anyway, added data on my personal opinions:
1.) I'm not sure now, if Akio is really doing this "World Revolution" for Himemiya, in the end, yes he was crying to Anthy saying he loves her.. He even promised Utena that she be princess of the castle, I think he was just after being 'Dios' again.. And, compared to Utena, even if Utena was wounded, she tried opening the door no matter what while he was sipping his stupid cocktail

2.) I find Dios a coward, in the end, when the swords have stopped piercing through Himemiya, Dios rode a horse and ran away.. (what a prince..) As Akio said before, we are limited in our views and the way we perceive things.. heh

3.) "Apocalyptic World Revolution", I think I understood more when I re-watched episodes 37 to 39.
When Akio and Anthy were driving in his red car, he said "The World" is causing Anthy pain..
So, he gave Anthy hope.. (Revolution = Rebellion) Rebellion agains't the 'world' who did it to Himemiya, and to whatever has happened to each duelist and himself..

Utena never really cared about revolution, all she wanted was to free Himemiya..

I thought of more, but I've forgotten them.. emot-tongue

Last edited by Stephanie (10-01-2007 07:06:52 PM)


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#18 | Back to Top10-01-2007 07:25:24 PM

satyreyes
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Stephanie wrote:

1.) Why'd the swords actually try to attack Utena and Akio after Anthy was saved from it?
(I just find it no reason for it to suddenly atack them)

Well, remember that those swords -- the swords of humanity's hatred -- were originally wielded by our fairy-tale villagers against the Witch for sealing the Prince away.  But by opening the coffin, Utena liberates Anthy from her condition of self-imposed bondage to the swords.  With her gone, the swords turn on the Prince (Dios, now Akio) for not coming to save them from dragons and take them to French restaurants and such.  As for Utena... honestly, I think they were just pissed off and destroying everything at that point, but you could read it to mean that the swords went for the next Prince in line after Akio.

2.) Now, this is what I really want to know, why do you guys keep insisting Utena is still alive? What is it that make you guys believe? Of course, I want her alive too (I felt numb when I found out she died in my first reaction and quickly went here w/o thinking or wasting a second to make me be satisfied). I just don't see any proof she could've been alive in that situation, though Anthy and Akio are both weirdly alive after the incident either..

'Cuz Anthy thinks she's alive emot-smile  What happened in the tower was an orgy of metaphors.  Anthy and Akio didn't really die; the planetarium wasn't really destroyed.  So there's no reason to think Utena did die.  On top of that, there's the episode title: "Itsuka Isshoni Kagayaku" -- "Someday We'll Shine Together."  Could just be a hopeful sentiment, but I take it as a statement of fact.

3.) Did Anthy reincarnated? When she was young, she got thousands of swords pierced through her, or was is just a symbolism? (Though I do remember Anthy asking Utena if she believes in Reincarnation)

Heh, that's a funny point about the conversation about reincarnation!  Anthy does like asking those probing questions.  The metaphysics are a little weird, but I guess intuitively I want to say that the Witch getting "killed" protecting the Prince is what sealed the spell and initiated the spira mirabilis of failed revolutions.  I don't know whether she literally died and literally reincarnated, unfortunately.


1.) I'm not sure now, if Akio is really doing this "World Revolution" for Himemiya, in the end, yes he was crying to Anthy saying he loves her.. He even promised Utena that she be princess of the castle, I think he was just after being 'Dios' again.. And, compared to Utena, even if Utena was wounded, she tried opening the door no matter what while he was sipping his stupid cocktail

Heh heh heh.  I'm going to let Gio field this one if she wants it, but you're asking the right questions.

2.) I find Dios a coward, in the end, when the swords have stopped piercing through Himemiya, Dios rode a horse and ran away.. (what a prince..) As Akio said before, we are limited in our views and the way we perceive things.. heh

We had a thread about Dios's role in the last episode a while back, and we didn't reach a real agreement about him.  To me, riding off into the sunset says "my work here is done."  He cajoled Utena into doing what she knew was right; the work itself is Utena's to do.

Utena never really cared about revolution, all she wanted was to free Himemiya..

Bam!  And perhaps that's what qualified her to bring the revolution.

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#19 | Back to Top10-01-2007 07:35:10 PM

Stephanie
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

I see, of course, it is just an illusion afterall.. But Utena left without saying goodbye to Anthy.. emot-frown
Or maybe, as the ending said, she thought she failed..

The reason I believed she really died was, Akio said this match is not a "Play Duel" and she'd be suprised how a real match goes.. And Jury's story of the drowned boy..

Anyway, who's Gio? Ehh? o_O

Anyway, I see about Dios, like Utena becoming a car, huh? lol

Arigatou again, you give me more hope and I feel happy to believe Utena is alive.. emot-smile


EDIT:
About her qualification to bring revolution..

I remember the prologue saying, "Never loose that strength or nobility even as you grow up"
So, I guess a tear from her kind of opened the Rose Gate, her "NOBILITY" rather emot-biggrin

Last edited by Stephanie (10-01-2007 07:40:53 PM)


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#20 | Back to Top10-01-2007 07:59:44 PM

satyreyes
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Stephanie wrote:

I see, of course, it is just an illusion afterall.. But Utena left without saying goodbye to Anthy.. emot-frown
Or maybe, as the ending said, she thought she failed..

The reason I believed she really died was, Akio said this match is not a "Play Duel" and she'd be suprised how a real match goes.. And Jury's story of the drowned boy..

Well, no one really knows for sure.  There's a picture in one of the art books that appears to show a tearful post-series Anthy reuniting with Utena, but we can't be sure that's when the picture was "taken," and even if we could, whether a picture in an art book is canon is questionable.  But I'm not worried.  Utena's alive -- just grown up.  Grown-ups don't get to live at Ohtori.

Anyway, who's Gio? Ehh? o_O

Gio is Giovanna, aka Mrs. Ohtori, aka proprietor of this forum and Utena fansite Empty Movement, aka God.  etc-loveetc-loveetc-love  She has what you might call a bit of a thing for Akio analysis.

Last edited by satyreyes (10-01-2007 08:00:16 PM)

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#21 | Back to Top10-01-2007 08:04:09 PM

BioKraze
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

satyreyes wrote:

Gio is Giovanna, aka Mrs. Ohtori, aka proprietor of this forum and Utena fansite Empty Movement, aka God.  etc-loveetc-loveetc-love  She has what you might call a bit of a thing for Akio analysis.

That's Mrs. AKIO Ohtori, my friend. Don't forget that. emot-keke (There, Gio. I said it for you. Though doubtless you'll be more sadistic about it... school-devil)


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#22 | Back to Top10-01-2007 08:12:08 PM

Stephanie
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Posts: 615
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

*sigh*

Anyway, I await for Mrs. Akio Ohtori's opinion then! emot-dance


OMG, everytime I watch the ending, I get teary eyed when I see Utena's crying face when she opened the coffin.. T__T

It's just, so sweet and.. I don't know how else to describe it.. T__T

emot-gonk <--This is suppose to be a crying face, right?

EDIT:
I put "Akio" before Ohtori emot-rofl

Last edited by Stephanie (10-01-2007 08:13:21 PM)


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#23 | Back to Top10-01-2007 08:36:59 PM

Imaginary Bad Bug
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

Just chiming in to give a word of advice to Stephanie (welcome, btw! emot-dance ) which I think has been covered by some of the in-depth posts here but bears repeating...

Much of what goes on in the series is not meant to be taken at face value, and this is of paramount importance when watching the movie.  What you see on screen isn't always a literal event, more often than not it is a metaphor of symbolic importance.  There are actual 'events' in SKU, but there are also many passages of metaphor where what you see on screen is actually just the meaning of what is going on, which we don't see.  Implied events, if you will. And in the case of the movie, most of that (the way I see it anyway) doesn't even take place in a material realm of existence; it's nearly all metaphoric in nature and not actual 'events'.

A lot of the fun of a series like SKU is that we put into it as much or more than what we take from it! cool


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#24 | Back to Top10-02-2007 12:58:16 AM

Giovanna
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

satyreyes wrote:

Anyway, who's Gio? Ehh? o_O

Gio is Giovanna, aka Mrs. Ohtori, aka proprietor of this forum and Utena fansite Empty Movement, aka God.  etc-loveetc-loveetc-love  She has what you might call a bit of a thing for Akio analysis.

'A bit of a thing', eh? You realize now I feel the contrarian in me wanting to refuse to talk about Akio in this thread.

But uhhh...apparently the compulsion to yap about Akio is greater than my contrarianism. That's...impressive. emot-redface

Stephanie wrote:

1.) I'm not sure now, if Akio is really doing this "World Revolution" for Himemiya, in the end, yes he was crying to Anthy saying he loves her.. He even promised Utena that she be princess of the castle, I think he was just after being 'Dios' again.. And, compared to Utena, even if Utena was wounded, she tried opening the door no matter what while he was sipping his stupid cocktail

The problem with Akio is you have to decide where the lie is. He wants to regain the power of Dios. He loves Anthy and wants to save her. He wants Utena to become his princess. He wants a prince's sword. His behavior and his intentions and the things he says just don't line up, so it's up to the viewer to figure out. I think in the case of the set of things you've given, the tell is only one of those takes place when no one is paying attention to Akio. He pursues this ambiguous revolution for Anthy, but she's standing right with him for it. He cries and says he loves her, but she's in front of him. He promises Utena a place in the castle when Utena's listening. But no one's paying attention to him when he sips his drink. He's effectively alone and doing what's in his nature to do: relax and sit back, safe and satisfied in the knowledge that his darling sister suspended above will continue to bear that horrific burden. Anthy's final words to him suggest she's known all along what Akio was really about, and that is playing prince in his coffin. Playing prince, he never intended to really make himself one, for himself or for Anthy. Why would he? Everything Akio wants is in his coffin. Doesn't he seem a little self-centered to want to be a prince and help princesses? And for his desire for power...that's just him being your garden variety fallen adult. He's powerhungry but his definition of power is something selfish and controlling and dominating. It lines up quite neatly with what most adults in this world think 'power' is, but the show preaches another kind of power, that it says adults have a hard time possessing, recognizing, or understanding. The power to change things, to show someone who they really are and who they can really be, the power of selflessness and inner strength and blah blah all that hippie heart heart shoujo stuff.

So yeah. Akio is a selfish spoiled child in the body of a man, no conscience, just the drives of pleasure and preservation, perfectly happy to live out the ages of time in a coffin where he's God tossing about his playthings for his own amusement, with no concern for what he does to them. All that stuff about wanting to become a prince? Bullshit. Does he love Anthy? Probably as much as is possible for him, but at the end of the day, it's obviously not enough to really want to save her from the swords. It's not even enough for him to make a token gesture of distress at her suffering. Why would he, he's got a pina colada to drink.

There. Happy satyr? emot-keke


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#25 | Back to Top10-02-2007 01:12:15 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
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Re: Last Episode in TV Series

satyreyes wrote:

2.) I find Dios a coward, in the end, when the swords have stopped piercing through Himemiya, Dios rode a horse and ran away.. (what a prince..) As Akio said before, we are limited in our views and the way we perceive things.. heh

We had a thread about Dios's role in the last episode a while back, and we didn't reach a real agreement about him.  To me, riding off into the sunset says "my work here is done."  He cajoled Utena into doing what she knew was right; the work itself is Utena's to do.

Exactly. It's the difference between Utena and Dios at this point; Dios, who has one way or another become Akio, has lost the "noble" drive and innocence that Utena still has -- Akio makes that point while watching Utena trying to open the gate with his former self at his side, remarking: "I used to be like that once." Dios's taunting of Utena is cruel, but it serves its purpose -- it makes her get up and do what she needs to do, even if she doesn't learn her lesson from it. Dios couldn't walk the path for Utena anymore than Utena could walk the path for Anthy; essentially the message is that being a prince involves showing the way, holding out a hand to hold on the journey. ("You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.") The irony is that Dios learned this by becoming Akio (as he seemed to be going the way of Utena before Anthy stopped him, which leads back to the question of why Anthy stopped Utena from opening the coffin in the first instance, when she stabbed her in the back; was it loyalty to her brother, or an attempt to do to Utena what had been done to Dios...or an attempt to stop herself from doing to her what had been done to her brother? Or some combination? Anthy's motives are always difficult to understand...). Utena never learned it, hence her belief she failed, but like I said earlier...Anthy's off to tell her the truth. You could say she's being almost prince-like, in showing Utena the path she has to choose to walk now, but I prefer to think of them as equals after that. Neither is specifically showing the other where and how to walk; they're just walking side by side, together. And that's a happy ending in my book. emot-biggrin


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