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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top09-21-2007 11:38:25 AM

bea
Saionji Slapper
From: Milan, Italy
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Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

Well, it is pretty self-explanatory, I guess...

Friendship, Choice, Reason, Love, Adoration, Conviction and Self.
We all know Utena succeded in winning each and every of the duels she had been challenged to by the Student Council members during the SCA. The thing I was pondering, anyway, is: if any of the Student Council Members had done the same, in which order would he have been confronted by the other Duelists?

I might have got it wrong, but as far as I've understood, the trend seems to remain the same for anyone who start fighting to reach the final duel - Revolution. Is that not it? emot-rolleyes


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#2 | Back to Top09-22-2007 01:13:17 AM

Nanami's Rose Groom
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

I think, that answering this would be very hard, as we don't know for how long one of the Seitokai would have been the current Champion, before he was defeated by another one (if you know what I mean). I can give my guess for Nanami. If she won the Rose Bride in a duel, the first one probably would be Saionji. His skills are good, but Nanami knows, that he is a "friend" of her Oniisama, so her jealousy, would help her to win this duel. Next probably could be Juri. Here, Nanami would have a problem, because Utena won "only with a help of miracle", and miracles don't happen twice. Ok, if she had won this, we have Miki. He'd be too shy or he'd made another stupid mistake, and lost this duel. And at the end, we have Mr "Don't hate me, just because I'm beautiful" Touga. Why is he the last one? It could be partially Akio's plot. If Nanami would be worthy of the duel for Revolution, she would have to overpower her feelings to Touga and win. But I doubt, she'd manage to do it. So, who is going to review hypothetical duels for Touga?


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#3 | Back to Top09-22-2007 01:50:07 AM

Ashnod
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

I can hazard a guess at Touga. This is written assuming Utena does not duel, so his becoming the Victor happens independently of how it occurs in the anime.

Firstly, he is challenged by Saionji. I suspect Saionji will be the first to challenge every Victor, actually, due to his impatience and overconfidence. Saionji will not win - Touga knows him far too well both as a kendo swordsman and as a person. Saionji's buttons will be pressed exactly as needed, and he will be sufficiently rattled for the easy win.

His second challenge, like Utena's, would be Miki. Part of me is tempted to say Juri would be more eager, but I think Akio is going to send the invitation to Miki first. Also, at this point Shiori hasn't returned to Ohtori, so Miki is going to be easier to manipulate. Touga makes quick work of Miki.

If Akio decides to bring Nanami into this, it would be here. I honestly don't think he will unless he requires it to meet the necessary number of duels. IF he does bring in Nanami - she loses, and loses badly. Nanami would have had to be seriously manipulated into dueling her brother in the first place - in the face of everything Akio would do behind the scenes to get her to duel, the loss would be devastating. We would not see Nanami duel again.

At this point, things become problematic.

Juri is the final remaining active council member, as Ruka has yet to make his brief return. Touga has no leverage on Juri as he did with Utena. I don't think that he can out duel her - Ruka was pretty convinced that when Juri was on her game none of the Duellists would be able to match her skill vs skill, and she demonstrated in her duels with Utena during the anime that her ability can even overcome the advantage Dios grants the Victor. What she hasn't faced is the Rose Bride blessing the blade, which I'm certain Touga would unleash on her, having not required it against Saionji or Miki. This is a VERY hard match to decide, not even taking into account if Anthy chooses to influence the outcome.

I don't think he gets by Juri.

However, IF he does, and Utena isn't in the picture yet, then the only person that is going to stop him is Ruka, and it's with Ruka that Touga's stint as the Victor is halted, provided Juri didn't stop him first.

Last edited by Ashnod (09-22-2007 01:56:55 AM)


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#4 | Back to Top09-22-2007 08:41:19 AM

allegoriest
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

It always bothered me how apparently nothing happened before the series, but how apparently they had duels already. Kinda like how their duel chart starts when Utena comes in. I really can't see how Saionji beat Touga, or Juri. (Unless she flipped out and went into a Juri rage.)

Though maybe Akio flipped a coin or something and was all 'eeh, give it to Saionji. He'll overreact and make certain people want to beat him up.' I prefer to think that they hadn't REALLY dueled yet, maybe just a few pretend matches. Besides, didn't the castle not appear until Utena was there? I always though Saionji was just all HAHA you've never seen it cause you're a noob! haha!! even though he'd probably never really fought under it either.



...Though I do like to pretend that Ruka was maybe the failed champion from a year or two before.  And wow... most that probably made no sense. I need sleep. emot-gonk


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#5 | Back to Top09-22-2007 11:37:28 AM

brian
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

Actually that's what Ruka was.

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#6 | Back to Top09-22-2007 12:10:39 PM

Ashnod
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

brian wrote:

Actually that's what Ruka was.

According to the manga, anyway. I don't think there's anything within the anime itself to support it.


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#7 | Back to Top09-22-2007 12:53:12 PM

dollface
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

When wondering what it may have looked like to see non-Utena duels, you always have the game to fall back on! Actually, I've never played the game, but I've seen clips taken from it. It always seems that while Juri may face off with Miki, or Touga with Saionji, but no one ever actually wins. You see the opponents struggle, switching between the lead, until both fall to the ground. Like I said though, I've never played it, so this may not actually be the case.

This leads me to a question I've thought about before. Was Saionji the first to possess Anthy? I do think that she had moved around by duel before he became victor. But if that is the case, who possessed Anthy to begin with? In the second episode, Juri says something about following the instructions within her first letter and seeing the castle in the sky. She says that she had to stay because of it. I would imagine the others followed a similar path. So did they duel the first time they ever entered the arena? Was Anthy just standing there, waiting for two people to arrive so she may leave with one? Or perhaps everything really did begin with Saionji, and that could lend a hand as to why he believes that he deserves Anthy; Akio may have given her to him first, therefore he is the obvious champion. (Of course there are bigger reasons as to why he fights for her, but I'm just throwing it out there.)

But anyway, so that I won't derail completely, I don't really have much of a take on all the duelists. I'll try to muster something up, but it's all coming from the top of my head, so forgive me if it's a little sloppy. I'll follow the order Utena would fight in.

Assuming that Saionji holds Anthy already, Miki is first. He would put up a pretty strong fight-- Miki is still a very skilled swordsman, no matter how much that is overlooked. I think that he may have gone a little easier on Utena than he would on Saionji. He knows that Utena treats Anthy well, and his drive is purely of his own (manipulated, but still his own) desire. If Saionji held Anthy, there's no telling how much he may mistreat her, if only to get a rise from Miki. Saionji would be brutal; afterall, he has no restraint with women, why should Miki be different? Due to the difference in their training and form, at times it would be hard to distinguish who has the upper hand, the fencer or the kendo team captain. In the end, Saionji would settle on using his brute strength and lack of subtlety, and would easily be able to overthrow Miki and claim his rose. Saionji would remain the victor.

Next is Juri. While Miki has bested Juri once in the fencing hall, I don't really find it a stretch to say that Juri has greater skill with the blade than Miki, as well as more cunning against her opponent. Shiori has yet to return to the academy, and Utena is not there to wave her idealism in Juri's face. Juri doesn't have much of a reason to fight, other than her letter telling her to do so. Her heart wouldn't really be into the duel much, but I'm willing to bet that Saionji doesn't pry enough into Juri's life to understand her weaknesses. It's a hard win to pinpoint. Still, Juri does have great concentration and a reason to win, even if she isn't being provoked. Her skill probably does surpass Saionji, and she's distant enough not to be emotionally driven the way Miki may be. Saionji would certainly have to fall back on dirty tactics like the ones used against Utena and Miki. Unlike them, Juri would most certainly not stand for that, and put him in his place quicker than the snapping of a rose stem. Juri is the victor.

If this time period is pre-Utena, Nanami has yet to be made into a duelist. But, just for the hell of it, let's say she is. I mean, nothing I've said so far actually happened, so why should this be any different? Nanami clearly does admire Juri and wouldn't hold things against her as with Utena. However, silly fillers have shown us that Nanami can easily feel the drive to overcome Juri. Girls are filthy schemers, it's just nature. I can't really say for certain that Nanami would manage to put up much of a fight, if one at all. She was insanely driven in her first duel, moreso than anyone else IMO, and still she lost faster than anyone. Given, Utena's rose was not what Nanami was after, but... I just can't see Nanami and Juri having much of a tough time. Their skill levels are completely unmatched, and I think it goes without saying that Juri would collect that win.

I believe that Juri is the strongest duelist, but I don't think she could win against Touga. Unlike Saionji, Touga knows Juri's secret, and he could easily use it against her. She would hold him off, perhaps longer than Utena, but in the end would probably end up flipping out Juri-style. She does not have the power of Dios on her side, and though she herself has proved to be brilliant without it, in the end she would need that miracle to fall back on. Her momentary lapse of sanity may actually prove to make her an even worthier opponent, but Touga is very collected and calm under pressure, and I feel pretty certain that he would claim her rose, regardless of if he is armed with simple word or a chainsaw. Touga is the victor.

Supposedly, Ruka was a member of the council before Utena came around, so we can imagine that he is here. This is the duel that I haven't got any idea of the outcome. Both are strong physically and pretty stable in a heated situation. Both have gotten close to Akio, and both have had much experience with a sword. I don't think either would be able to hit much of a vein in the other's demeanor, and mindgames would begin to cancel each other out. In the end, the duel would fall back on skill, and both possess an insane amount. However, with Touga as the victor, he would certainly have Anthy protect the sword. The real question is whether or not Ruka has the determination to win. Utena defeated Touga without calling Dios because she was able to move Anthy. Could Ruka manage that? He is said to be the true prince, and perhaps this could spark some nostalgia in Anthy? I don't really believe that he could move Anthy, but the possibility remains. I really can't decide who wins.


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#8 | Back to Top09-22-2007 01:10:14 PM

Ashnod
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From: Missouri, United States
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

I agree with most of that - I just can't see Touga manipulating Juri successfully. Ruka was able to given their shared past - but in every scene shared by Juri and Touga, she is never rattled and always level-headed. I don't think Touga will be able to get under Juri's skin like Ruka was able to, even if Shiori is a factor. It seems to me that Touga "grounds" Juri, in the way playing a competent opponent will bring out the best in someone and eliminate other distractions, as she is clearly aware that he has Ends of the World's favor and knows she is waging in many ways an uphill battle against him.

I believe it would come down to skill vs skill, something Touga would not able to overcome with Juri as the Victor. It would be a different story with Touga as the Victor and Juri the challenger, as Anthy would likely have a great influence on the match.

My opinion, obviously.


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#9 | Back to Top09-22-2007 01:22:37 PM

dollface
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

I understand what you mean. It's doubtful that Touga could manipulate the was Ruka could. But when you combine the fact that he could probably get under her skin a bit with the fact that Juri isn't too keen on Touga to begin with, I think he has quite a fighting chance. Utena did nothing but mention her ideals and how she got them, and Juri was easily thrown into rage. This made Juri even stronger, but she still ost by "a miracle" and the fact that Utena reminds her of Shiori in many ways (IMO). Touga could pull Juri's strings by flaunting that he is a prince and will give girls like Utena 'false hope'. I certainly don't think Touga would be above using that sort of backwards manipulation against her. All in all, I just think that Touga has a lot of factors working for him, and Juri would have a really tough time against him.

Again though, it's very possible that Juri would win, almost certain, if she knows about how to activate the sword through Anthy. But I don't really think she does know, it appears as though Touga is the only one who does.


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#10 | Back to Top09-22-2007 01:59:34 PM

Ashnod
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

Right, but if Juri is the Victor, Anthy will likely not work in Touga's favor. It's a matter of opinion of course - Utena got under Juri's skin but I honestly don't think Touga can.


Flowers without names blooming in the field can only sway in the wind. But I was born with a destiny of roses, born to live in passion and glory.

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#11 | Back to Top09-22-2007 02:09:30 PM

dollface
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

This is true. Since these duels were never documented, we have no way to know the outcomes, or even if they happened at all. Just educated guessing.


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#12 | Back to Top09-22-2007 02:51:42 PM

Ragnarok
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

It's pretty much possible for any duelist to come out on top, depending on circumstances at the time, Anthy's favour, Akio's favour, etc.

But I do think Touga could manipulate Juri to gain an advantage in duelling her. We don't see him do so specifically in the series, but this is at least partially because he doesn't need to. In episode seven he gives her some prodding to make sure she duels (like he did with Miki but with less sex on a piano) and that's all he needed to do. If he were to be going up against Juri personally I'm sure he'd go far above his minor taunting in order to secure victory. It never comes up though, for when Juri once again needs prodding to duel, Ruka has arrived on the scene with a far more personal bent.

More on topic, it's curious. Some people theorize on whether Nanami would become a duellist or not without Utena around. Why should it be limited to that? Surely Akio (or Touga on his behalf) could make any student at Ohtori a duellist if it would serve his needs. There's also the Black Rose duels, could everyone make it through that?


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#13 | Back to Top09-22-2007 03:02:25 PM

Ashnod
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

No Victor is going to lose the Black Rose duels. Certainly not with Anthy supporting the Victor.


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#14 | Back to Top09-22-2007 03:02:56 PM

dollface
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

I thought about posting what I thought outcomes of the victor against the Black Rose duelists would be, but I found that most would be rather one-sided. The duelists draw their swords from their respective council members, and the skill they fight with is the skill of the member. If that is the case: (I'm using Juri and Shiori as examples)

-Shiori can't fight Juri because Juri is unconscious.
-Somehow if Juri remained conscious, she may not have her fencing skill, and Shiori would have every advantage.
-If Juri remained conscious and kept onto her skill, Shiori and Juri would be matched in skill (assuming Shiori still gains some technique) and the duel would probably never end.

The most interesting scenario would be if Shiori found her own sword and fights as she is. Certainly Juri has more experience and is simply a better duelist, but the duels are often run mentally moreso than physically, and internally Juri could never defeat Shiori without a revolution. It isn't that Shiori is stronger, it's that Juri would be unable to truly fight against her. In my opinion, I don't know that she could even draw her sword.

But those are just my opinions, and I may be thinking too far inside the box. If you can think of another option, I'd love to hear it.

Last edited by dollface (09-22-2007 03:03:31 PM)


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#15 | Back to Top09-22-2007 03:05:02 PM

Ashnod
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

Ragnarok wrote:

But I do think Touga could manipulate Juri to gain an advantage in duelling her. We don't see him do so specifically in the series, but this is at least partially because he doesn't need to. In episode seven he gives her some prodding to make sure she duels (like he did with Miki but with less sex on a piano) and that's all he needed to do. If he were to be going up against Juri personally I'm sure he'd go far above his minor taunting in order to secure victory. It never comes up though, for when Juri once again needs prodding to duel, Ruka has arrived on the scene with a far more personal bent.

Hmm. I don't seen Touga prodding Juri like he did Mik - I can't remember him saying anything specifically leading into the Episode 7 Duel that actually motivated her or coerced her into doing it.


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#16 | Back to Top09-22-2007 03:26:22 PM

Ragnarok
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

Ashnod wrote:

No Victor is going to lose the Black Rose duels. Certainly not with Anthy supporting the Victor.

With Anthy's support no one is going to lose any duels. Unless, of course, they choose to.

dollface wrote:

It isn't that Shiori is stronger, it's that Juri would be unable to truly fight against her. In my opinion, I don't know that she could even draw her sword.

Though Utena couldn't draw a sword against Wakaba, she still managed to win the duel. Not that Juri facing Shiori is the same as Utena facing Wakaba. emot-keke

There's always the nameless-brown-haired-boy, Shiori could probably pull out his soul sword. He is shown to be a fencer, albeit of lesser abilities than Juri. And then there's Touga, who seems capable of giving his soul sword up to someone he hardly knows.

Ashnod wrote:

Hmm. I don't seen Touga prodding Juri like he did Mik - I can't remember him saying anything specifically leading into the Episode 7 Duel that actually motivated her or coerced her into doing it.

Not to the extent of Miki, but Touga makes sure Juri's on track to duel. Whether he knows the whole story or not, he goads Juri about wanting Shiori to know her feelings. That's a complicated sentence, I can't word it right. Transcript time:

Episode 7 wrote:

touga:  Going in turn, Juri or I should be next.
miki:  What? Including Juri-san?
touga:  Of course. She also has a seat here to fight Duels.
miki:  Well, sure she's eligible, and skilled, too.
miki:  But she doesn't have a motive for fighting, does she?
touga:  Sure she does.
touga:  She wants to disprove the power of the Rose Bride, the power of miracles.
miki:  What? Is that true?
juri:  Who knows? But at the least I've got to study for finals on my own.
miki:  Huh? What's that mean?
touga:  But are you sure you want to disprove the miracle power?
touga:  If the power to revolutionize the world
touga:  is the one that will fulfill your unrequited feeling...
touga:  if you don't have to give up on your romance yet...
touga:  then do you still want to disprove the power of the Rose Bride?

*cue Juri angsting in the shower*

If Touga does know who Juri's feelings are towards, he could just as easily mess with Juri the way Ruka did.


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#17 | Back to Top09-22-2007 03:28:11 PM

Raven Nightshade
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

I think without Utena in the picture, Nanami would be a Black Rose Duelist instead of a regular Duelist. Picture Nanami with Touga's sword...and his skill.

What would have to be taken into account is who would be the Victor at the time, and that Touga wouldn't have had his little meltdown after Utena beat him in episode 12. And would Wakaba be a Black Rose Duelist if Saionji never gets expelled and hides in her room?


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#18 | Back to Top09-22-2007 03:34:16 PM

Ashnod
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

Ragnarok wrote:

Episode 7 wrote:

touga:  Going in turn, Juri or I should be next.
miki:  What? Including Juri-san?
touga:  Of course. She also has a seat here to fight Duels.
miki:  Well, sure she's eligible, and skilled, too.
miki:  But she doesn't have a motive for fighting, does she?
touga:  Sure she does.
touga:  She wants to disprove the power of the Rose Bride, the power of miracles.
miki:  What? Is that true?
juri:  Who knows? But at the least I've got to study for finals on my own.
miki:  Huh? What's that mean?
touga:  But are you sure you want to disprove the miracle power?
touga:  If the power to revolutionize the world
touga:  is the one that will fulfill your unrequited feeling...
touga:  if you don't have to give up on your romance yet...
touga:  then do you still want to disprove the power of the Rose Bride?

*cue Juri angsting in the shower*

If Touga does know who Juri's feelings are towards, he could just as easily mess with Juri the way Ruka did.

I disagree that this actually was goading Juri in anyway, certainly not like sleeping with Kozue in the previous episodes. This seems more like necessary narrative to explain who Juri is up to this point. She was already sufficiently motivated to duel and that much is made clear before Episode 7- this really didn't have any influence on her, in my opinion.


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#19 | Back to Top09-22-2007 04:08:00 PM

dollface
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

Raven Nightshade wrote:

I think without Utena in the picture, Nanami would be a Black Rose Duelist instead of a regular Duelist. Picture Nanami with Touga's sword...and his skill.

Now that's something I don't want to run into in a dark alley.


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#20 | Back to Top09-22-2007 04:11:55 PM

dollface
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

Sorry, double posting.

Ragnarok wrote:

There's always the nameless-brown-haired-boy, Shiori could probably pull out his soul sword. He is shown to be a fencer, albeit of lesser abilities than Juri.

That's a good point. But then, Shiori left the academy with that boy, and when she returned we never saw that boy again. We're never given any sign that he returned as well. But it is logical that he does, and I can certainly see Shiori being able to take his sword. After all, he's in a similar (but less powerful) position to Ruka, isn't he? (ie- Loving Juri, not being able to have Juri, being loved by Shiori, dating Shiori, ect. Sure, the boy does not have Ruka's motives, but in the overall scheme I'm sure it's enough to have a sword drawn.)


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#21 | Back to Top09-22-2007 05:09:33 PM

Ragnarok
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

Ashnod wrote:

I disagree that this actually was goading Juri in anyway, certainly not like sleeping with Kozue in the previous episodes. This seems more like necessary narrative to explain who Juri is up to this point. She was already sufficiently motivated to duel and that much is made clear before Episode 7- this really didn't have any influence on her, in my opinion.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. emot-smile Now, I say Touga was goading Juri, but not that he was successful. It isn't until her conversation with Utena that Juri really decides to duel seriously. Likewise, though Touga was motivating Miki to duel, it isn't until Anthy specifically says she'd stop playing the piano at Utena's say so that Miki decides to duel.

Although I'm not sure what came before Episode 7 to indicate she was already motivated to duel? Aside from that she's part of the Student Council and expresses some interest in world revolution, which is a given. During the meeting in 7 Juri appears disinterested, even though it's her own duel which is coming up.

Regardless of all that, I don't think Touga's lack of manipulation towards Juri (counting episode 7 or not) is evidence that he'd be incapable of doing so.


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#22 | Back to Top09-22-2007 11:02:28 PM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. emot-biggrin


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#23 | Back to Top10-13-2007 08:33:04 AM

Stormcrow
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

Old topic, but I thought I'd weigh in on the Touga vs. Juri repartee. To me, the key to understanding their conversation is the knife-throwing. It's one of the few student council antics that actually made sense to me. In the scene, Touga practices his knife-throwing, using Miki as a practice dummy. He eventually creates Miki's silhouette on the wall behind him, outlined in knives. He does this blindfolded. To me, it seems that his words are knives aimed at Juri. His blindfold indicates that he can't really see his target, so I don't think he knows who the object of Juri's affection is, but his skill is such that he can't quite miss. As he hurls his words at her, an outline appears...but whose? Shiori's perhaps? Anyway, the upshot of all of that is that I think Touga does get under her skin, but probably not for the reasons he thinks...I think a duel between them would have many back and forth moments as one or the other gained the upper hand...decision: Juri. She's got more spirit, and I think that would be the deciding factor.


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#24 | Back to Top10-13-2007 07:06:50 PM

Tamago
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Re: Seitokai Members duelling against one another: what would they do?

If Miki was the Engaged and Touga was challenging him, Touga might use a dirty trick like 'accidently' dropping a topless picture of Juri to distract him long enough to win... not that he will enjoy his victory for long as its hard to engage in foursomes or even one on one bonk when a certain angry orange haired goddess removes one's genitals with a fishhead chopping knife. school-chef


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