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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top09-20-2007 07:12:09 AM

Lysander
New Student
From: Lurking somewhere
Registered: 09-20-2007
Posts: 5

If other duelists possessed Anthy...

Generally I prefer just to lurk, but there's something that's been bugging for a while.

During SKU we see Anthy with Utena, Saionji, and Touga while he is a playboy. But how would Miki, Juri, Nanami, Ruka and Touga (when he decides to stop being a playboy and says he wants to protect Utena) treat Anthy if she became engaged to any of them.

Personally I can see Miki having Anthy play the piano, and blushing at the thought of anything else, but I'm really can't imagine anything for the other duellists.

I'd love to hear what other people think on this subject.

PS: I apologise if a similar thread has already been done and I've just managed to miss it.

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#2 | Back to Top09-20-2007 08:01:30 AM

Tenjou_sailorsaturn
Someday Shiner
From: Floating Castle
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2417
Website

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

My first impression is about Juri--slapping Anthy non-stop. I feel that it's the way how Juri denies miracle by torturing the symbol.

Surely Miki will have Anthy playing the piano with him, yet I seriously suspect that Anthy would have minor wounds every once in a while. (do I really NEED to say why?)

As for Nanami... at first I sincerely hope Anthy won't be killed, but then I think Nanami would find it more interesting to make Anthy obey every single thing she orders.

Ruka pocessing Anthy is quite an amusing case. With Juri in his heart, I feel like it'a a love triangle. Will miracle happen? Can Ruka make Juri let Shiori go? Can he at last survive his disease? But, Anthy, this time, is NOT the key to these problems. Well, at least, Anthy won't be mal-treated, I'm sure. Ruka is quite a humanist, in fact.

If Touga really wins Anthy at the later stage, there won't be much difference in his attitude to her, except that he would have a higher chance to date Utena, who has much concern for Anthy.


生命是奇蹟,但是為什麼生活是痛苦的?

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#3 | Back to Top09-20-2007 02:50:35 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
Website

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

You know, my first thought here was to ask 'How is Anthy going to antagonize them?' We already know she's a pretty big bitch, though the only open rebellion we see from her she takes out on Saionji, who she clearly doesn't like a whole lot. (With good reason, but then, that's a chicken and egg scenario...would Saionji beat her if she wasn't subtly provoking him?)

For some reason, my instinct suggests she would be similarly antagonistic toward Juri. I think on some level Juri's refusing to believe what's right in front of her would strike a familiar chord; though for Anthy it's more that she refuses to realize the miracle in front of her is a lie. Juri doesn't accept that someone would sacrifice themself for her, and Anthy refuses to accept that the person that should most certainly won't. That said, it'd be pretty easy to antagonize Juri; any vague reminder of Shiori, or any suggestion of miracles or magic tricks Juri can't explain... Judging from her reaction to the rose Anthy offers her in the SCA, for all her otherwise calm and collected rage, she might turn out to treat Anthy the same way Saionji does.

With Miki...it's hard to say. If it's in Anthy's heart to admire or pity, Miki would be a very safe target, but by the same token, his innocence and misguided well-meaning might piss her off. I think for his part, yeah, he's just going to keep her very close and make her play piano with him.

Nanami...I don't think would know what to do with Anthy besides make her another Tsuwabuki. Just have her run errands. She certainly wouldn't attempt a relationship of any sort with her, although given Anthy's history of not especially liking Nanami, this might all get very ugly. emot-gonk

Touga would just do what he did before. Cart her around like a trophy but otherwise ignore her. A woman that isn't capable of lusting after him is of no interest.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#4 | Back to Top09-20-2007 08:52:58 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

Anthy was doing mostly whatever Akio wished. She would treat victors in whichever way Akio directed. If it suited him to let a victorious Miki act out his virginal piano dreams that's what Miki would have gotten. If necessary Miki could have been manipulated into mistreating her like Saoinji or swiving her 20 times a day like a crazed goat or getting stretched like Silly-Putty between them. Who knows, Juri might have been persuaded that she loved Anthy all along or Ruka or Touga. The ultimate target was always Utena and probably nobody but Utena.

It's likely that no one would have been allowed to seriously injure Anthy (physically).

Touga was partly acting out his personality but he had probably been briefed by Akio that the secret to lasting victory was to not get emotionally involved with Anthy.

Last edited by brian (09-20-2007 08:59:06 PM)

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#5 | Back to Top09-20-2007 09:08:13 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
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Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

Giovanna wrote:

With Miki...it's hard to say. If it's in Anthy's heart to admire or pity, Miki would be a very safe target, but by the same token, his innocence and misguided well-meaning might piss her off.

Miki would probably be too fun and easy for Anthy not to mess around with. She'd do something like volunteering private information just to fluster him.

Did you know Miki-sama likes dancing in his underwear to Beethoven's 5th? emot-keke


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#6 | Back to Top09-23-2007 02:26:06 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
Website

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

Ragnarok wrote:

Giovanna wrote:

With Miki...it's hard to say. If it's in Anthy's heart to admire or pity, Miki would be a very safe target, but by the same token, his innocence and misguided well-meaning might piss her off.

Miki would probably be too fun and easy for Anthy not to mess around with. She'd do something like volunteering private information just to fluster him.

Did you know Miki-sama likes dancing in his underwear to Beethoven's 5th? emot-keke

....boy has good taste. school-eng101

But that would be unusually sloppy for her, I mean, that can get traced back to the source.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#7 | Back to Top10-09-2007 12:36:52 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

brian wrote:

Touga was partly acting out his personality but he had probably been briefed by Akio that the secret to lasting victory was to not get emotionally involved with Anthy.

I can't really see Akio doing that. He doesn't outright lie very often (or at least if he does, I can't recall), and being emotionally involved is the only way to get any sort of victory in the duels, whether it's as Akio's sacrifice to the Swords, or as the Prince that Utena became. Not only that, but Touga seems to have the impression that the duels are kind of... set in stone, not subject to the influence of anyone but Akio-- probably the impression Akio has as well. Touga never really sees Anthy as a person, or at least we never see him interacting with her in any way that addresses her as a person, so it follows that he doesn't believe she can influence the duels. That makes her a minor consideration, a tool to use to impact others. She can't say no, she doesn't evidence any interest in him, he knows she only acts however her engaged wants her to act, and she appears powerless in and of herself, so there's no reason for Touga to bother himself much about paying attention to her.

After he started to want to save Utena... well, I kinda think he'd try to show a little more interest in Anthy, in hopes that Utena would think that Anthy was happy with him. After all, she has to display it if he wants her to. And this would solve his main problem: keeping Anthy and Utena apart so that Utena wasn't destroyed by her feelings for the Rose Bride.


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#8 | Back to Top10-09-2007 12:14:56 PM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
Website

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

I think it would really depend on what point in the story each member of the Student Council became engaged to Anthy. Circumstances would be far different for Juri, for example, if she were to be engaged to Anthy before Utena came into the story, after Utena was the Victor, and during the Akio arc.

I also think the length of time engaged would have something to do with it. Anthy may or may not warm up to someone after an extended engagement; similarly, the Victor might have a radically changed opinion of Anthy after spending time with her.


Flowers without names blooming in the field can only sway in the wind. But I was born with a destiny of roses, born to live in passion and glory.

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#9 | Back to Top02-02-2009 01:52:41 PM

Riri-kins
World's End
From: Cloud Nine
Registered: 09-22-2008
Posts: 2346

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

Miki would treat her the most humanely although Anthy might make a couple of verbal stabs without him realizing it. Touga would just have sex and then ignore her.

I think Juri would be just almost as cruel to her as Saionji because my theory still is that she lost her virginity to her. When Anthy was so nice to her she mistook it for a genuine crush and thought maybe she could help her get over Shiori.


Proud Saionji and Mikage fangirl
My Utena fanfiction: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2000115/Riri-kins

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#10 | Back to Top02-02-2009 03:55:28 PM

Soukougnan
Black Rosarian
From: home. sort of.
Registered: 01-02-2009
Posts: 373

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

i suppose that if they were engaged to her at any period of time, it would most likely have been before Utena showed up. Anthy would have been more bitter and spiteful in general, i think, to any of her Victors. though in a characteristically passive-aggressive way.

i feel like she probably tormented Saionji, and while it looked on the outside like he was being abusive, he was probably the abuse-ee. i can't think of a reason she'd start tormenting him, though... like Gio said, it's kind of a chicken/egg thing.

i think Anthy would have been annoyed by Miki. for him--in the anime, at least--she wasn't an actual person as much as she was the symbol of something beautiful he'd lost. she'd probably try to goad him into sleeping with her, just for the satisfaction of taking a bit of his innocence away.


what-- where did i go?

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#11 | Back to Top02-03-2009 07:16:18 PM

hollow_rose
Egghead
From: Ohio
Registered: 10-26-2008
Posts: 1074

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

Anyone have any thoughts on Ruka? According to the manga he was the dueling champion for a time.... Ruka sort of plays the game like Touga but at the same time I can't see him treating Anthy exactly as Touga did.


20 threads dead so far.

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#12 | Back to Top02-03-2009 07:20:14 PM

Bluesky
Chpn Dlst
From: Your window
Registered: 10-25-2008
Posts: 1939
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Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

hollow_rose wrote:

Anyone have any thoughts on Ruka? According to the manga he was the dueling champion for a time.... Ruka sort of plays the game like Touga but at the same time I can't see him treating Anthy exactly as Touga did.

I think he might pay a bit more lip-service to her being his 'engaged' but he'd totally play around. Just more discreetly. For some reason, I feel he'd be less suceptible to Anthy's usual passive-aggressive shit. Don't know why, that was just the feeling I got from him. Unless she could play on his pride.


/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\

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#13 | Back to Top02-03-2009 07:27:07 PM

Mock Puppet
Azure Paleontologist
From: In a dark room.
Registered: 10-06-2007
Posts: 1207
Website

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

The question I want to ask is; What would have happened if Kanae, Kozue, Mitsuru, Keiko and Wakaba succeeded in killing the Rose Bride?


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#14 | Back to Top02-03-2009 07:31:16 PM

Bluesky
Chpn Dlst
From: Your window
Registered: 10-25-2008
Posts: 1939
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Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

Mock Puppet wrote:

The question I want to ask is; What would have happened if Kanae, Kozue, Mitsuru, Keiko and Wakaba succeeded in killing the Rose Bride?

Can she die? :S would the swords just have then gone for the prince instead?


/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\

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#15 | Back to Top02-03-2009 10:04:40 PM

Duelist Megu
Ruthless Deflorist
From: Calgary, AB
Registered: 12-07-2007
Posts: 303
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Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

brian wrote:

It's likely that no one would have been allowed to seriously injure Anthy (physically).

Miss Bluesky wrote:

Mock Puppet wrote:

The question I want to ask is; What would have happened if Kanae, Kozue, Mitsuru, Keiko and Wakaba succeeded in killing the Rose Bride?

Can she die? :S would the swords just have then gone for the prince instead?

I think this latter discussion affects brian's point.  I'm of the line of thought that no one is capable of harming Anthy.  Which also implies that the Black Rose thing wasn't a calculated risk, it was no risk at all.  But we've discussed this elsewhere.

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#16 | Back to Top02-04-2009 02:02:47 AM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
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Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

Mock Puppet wrote:

The question I want to ask is; What would have happened if Kanae, Kozue, Mitsuru, Keiko and Wakaba succeeded in killing the Rose Bride?

Offhand I believe that Anthy has a failsafe which would have 'erased' the new Nemuro Hall, Mikage and all the Black Rose duels if that unlikely event occurred.

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#17 | Back to Top02-04-2009 02:34:10 PM

Soukougnan
Black Rosarian
From: home. sort of.
Registered: 01-02-2009
Posts: 373

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

or it could have taken an even more interesting turn, and left Mikage thinking he was in charge, while Anthy and Akio just dipped even further into their own weird twisted little world.


what-- where did i go?

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#18 | Back to Top02-05-2009 04:43:14 PM

Riri-kins
World's End
From: Cloud Nine
Registered: 09-22-2008
Posts: 2346

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

hollow_rose wrote:

Anyone have any thoughts on Ruka? According to the manga he was the dueling champion for a time.... Ruka sort of plays the game like Touga but at the same time I can't see him treating Anthy exactly as Touga did.

I think he'd be a tiny bit more appreciative of her than most of the duelists because she'd probably have to nurse him. Ruka can be manipulative like Touga, but he never does it unless his victim deserves it. *dodges bricks from Shiori fans*


Proud Saionji and Mikage fangirl
My Utena fanfiction: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2000115/Riri-kins

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#19 | Back to Top02-05-2009 06:22:32 PM

Etrangere
Rose Smilee
From: Paris
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 134
Website

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

Riri-kins wrote:

hollow_rose wrote:

Anyone have any thoughts on Ruka? According to the manga he was the dueling champion for a time.... Ruka sort of plays the game like Touga but at the same time I can't see him treating Anthy exactly as Touga did.

I think he'd be a tiny bit more appreciative of her than most of the duelists because she'd probably have to nurse him. Ruka can be manipulative like Touga, but he never does it unless his victim deserves it. *dodges bricks from Shiori fans*

You really think Ruka was mean to Shiori only because she deserved it?


Yes. You shouldn't be suspicious of Anthy. Her big brother is your watching. There is no war in Ba Sing Se. ~ Dalbun

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#20 | Back to Top02-05-2009 09:10:02 PM

Riri-kins
World's End
From: Cloud Nine
Registered: 09-22-2008
Posts: 2346

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

I'm sorry. That was a mean thing to say.


Proud Saionji and Mikage fangirl
My Utena fanfiction: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2000115/Riri-kins

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#21 | Back to Top02-05-2009 11:51:24 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
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Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

Etrangere wrote:

You really think Ruka was mean to Shiori only because she deserved it?

From his point of view, definitely. He's cruel to Juri because he believes it's for her own good, and he's cruel to Shiori because he holds her responsible for Juri's suffering. He hardly intereacts with the rest of the cast, given his limited screen time, but he isn't malicious or manipulative towards anyone else. Judging from Juri's response to his mannerisms, it seems likely he was (or acted) much nicer before his sick leave.


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#22 | Back to Top02-06-2009 05:08:55 AM

Etrangere
Rose Smilee
From: Paris
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 134
Website

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

Ragnarok wrote:

Etrangere wrote:

You really think Ruka was mean to Shiori only because she deserved it?

From his point of view, definitely. He's cruel to Juri because he believes it's for her own good, and he's cruel to Shiori because he holds her responsible for Juri's suffering. He hardly intereacts with the rest of the cast, given his limited screen time, but he isn't malicious or manipulative towards anyone else. Judging from Juri's response to his mannerisms, it seems likely he was (or acted) much nicer before his sick leave.

So you don't think jealousy and spite enter into it?

I mean, I like Ruka, but that's a fairly idealist view of him.


Yes. You shouldn't be suspicious of Anthy. Her big brother is your watching. There is no war in Ba Sing Se. ~ Dalbun

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#23 | Back to Top02-06-2009 06:07:11 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

Etrangere wrote:

So you don't think jealousy and spite enter into it?

I mean, I like Ruka, but that's a fairly idealist view of him.

I think you missed this part:

Ragnarok wrote:

From his point of view, definitely.

No one ever thinks they're being jealous and spiteful, even when objectively they are.

Also, 'being mean' to fictional characters is bullshit. They don't care. But I'm tired of character crusaders getting their feathers ruffled at other peoples' valid opinions. Please. We're all mature people here, and none of us are out to get each other. Relax.

Riri, your apology was not needed. Carry on.


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#24 | Back to Top02-06-2009 08:26:58 AM

hollow_rose
Egghead
From: Ohio
Registered: 10-26-2008
Posts: 1074

Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

I think Ruka is pretty Machiavellian when it comes to his relationships -- the ends justify the means, and if he has to hurt people and manipulate them, that's fine, so long as it forwards his goals.

...but does anyone else have any more opinions about his relationship with Anthy when he has her? I'm writing a fic where this is relevant, and I'd like to hear other people's opinions.


20 threads dead so far.

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#25 | Back to Top02-06-2009 01:18:52 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
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Re: If other duelists possessed Anthy...

hollow_rose wrote:

...but does anyone else have any more opinions about his relationship with Anthy when he has her? I'm writing a fic where this is relevant, and I'd like to hear other people's opinions.

It's just so hard to tell, given the little information we have on him. I firmly believe that a non-terminal Ruka would show an entirely different side of himself. (Somewhat like when Saionji is living with Wakaba, if you will. The situation is so different from every day Ohtori life that the character almost seems to be another personality.) Ruka returns to Ohtori with a specific agenda and all of two episodes to see it through; if he were just an 'ordinary' student council member (perhaps ailing?) he could easily be any way you want to write him.

From what we do know of him... he likes Juri, so he wouldn't likely care for Anthy in a romantic sense. He gives off an air of cheerful nonchalance, so he might outwardly treat Anthy's odd behaviours as a joke or none of his concern. He doesn't lift a finger to help Anthy, if anything he ignores that she exists, perhaps he had once tried to help her and has since given up. He rides around with Akio and Touga, so he might think of Anthy as the emotionless doll the Rose Bride is supposed to be, assuming he had any connection with Akio before his illness.

Actually, what if Anthy caused his illness? He wouldn't be the first she's done that to, and it seems to further Akio's plans. Could Ruka have been an obstacle, had he remained at Ohtori? As the engaged, he'd be very vulnerable if for no other reason than the required proximity to Anthy. But obviously I've gone off on a tangent.


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