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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top07-23-2007 11:56:22 AM

Levi
Wakaba Wrangler
From: Midwest
Registered: 12-18-2006
Posts: 18

Mikage/Nemuro Question

Ok, what the hell was up with this whole finding eternity project. can someone please explain. i'm confused. T.T

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#2 | Back to Top07-23-2007 12:34:55 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Mikage/Nemuro Question

Levi wrote:

Ok, what the hell was up with this whole finding eternity project. can someone please explain. i'm confused. T.T

What did you want to know, exactly? Because it's a very complex subject and it would take a while to explain how I see it. emot-keke If you want to bullet-point what bugs you, I could answer those; otherwise, have a read of an essay I wrote a few years back about Mikage and Nemuro and see if that makes things better. Or worse. Whichever works. emot-gonk


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#3 | Back to Top11-08-2011 02:45:08 PM

Makubi
Touga Topper
From: SE England
Registered: 10-19-2011
Posts: 56

Re: Mikage/Nemuro Question

THREAD NO NECRO SURU TAME NI

This is actually a question that I've also had a lot of trouble with. As the descriptions given of the project being undertaken in Nemuro Memorial Hall are ridiculously vague. If possible I would like to read your essay Clarice but the link seems to be broken emot-frown

If I may, I shall list what available information we have on the Nemuro Hall Project, I'm doing this off the top of my head having rewatched the black rose saga a couple of weeks ago so people please feel free to correct me.

1) The project involved a large number of boys from Ohtori, who were ostensibly students at the start of the project but may have graduated and become professors in their own right (is my reading of the sudden acquisition of lab coats during the flashback sequence)

2) Each of the boys had made a contract with End of the World, whom they may or may not have known was Akio (in the Utena Scripts they refer to him as you know who, the CPM dub refers to him as 'that man' but as I recal they simply refer to him as kare, although I may be mistaken.) This means they may have had greater knowledge of the Power to Revolutionize the World than Nemuro/Mikage, but to what extent this is the case is never revealed.

3) The study itself seems to involve book research as opposed to lab work, as evidenced by this image, suggesting it is more esoteric or historical research. The project also seems to have involved the building of the duel arena forest, which is what I can only surmise is happening in this scene. The usual references are made to finding eternity and The Power to Revolutionize the World, but no reference is made to that which is Shining or the Power of Miracles, although obviously that's just more of a student council thing.

4) Nemuro believes the project will be able to cure Mamiya of his illness, although again, whether this is merely one aspect of the project is unclear.

My question when I watched these episodes was always, 'What did they think they were doing?' I assume that the students/duelists are on the same level as the student council in their knowledge of the Power to Revolutionize the World, but the Rose Bride does not seem to factor into any discussion that's made during this point. Do they even know about her existence?
Nemuro may or may not have burned down the Hall to kill all the students to make them into some kind of Duelist Coal, did he think this was absolutely necessary to gain the PRW?

Last edited by Makubi (11-08-2011 02:46:37 PM)

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#4 | Back to Top11-08-2011 03:06:56 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
Website

Re: Mikage/Nemuro Question

Unless I'm mistaken, that essay is the one Clarice let me steal to put on the analysis site: http://www.ohtori.nu/analysis/07_clarice_brs1.htm

It's two pages. etc-wankgirl


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#5 | Back to Top11-09-2011 07:51:16 AM

wblstudios
Banned
Registered: 08-17-2011
Posts: 564

Re: Mikage/Nemuro Question

I did a whole wrap on this myself, although this really covers Mikage more than Nemuro.

http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=2757

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#6 | Back to Top11-12-2011 01:00:56 PM

Makubi
Touga Topper
From: SE England
Registered: 10-19-2011
Posts: 56

Re: Mikage/Nemuro Question

Thanks for the link Giovanna emot-keke It really is amazing how much symbolism is loaded into those two final black rose episodes.

wblstudios wrote:

One is that they, being the team that finally figured out how to get the hell out, got out themselves.  This ties into what happens when you get the hell out... I’ll be covering that in a bit.  The other theory is that they’re only dead in body, and not in spirit... which makes more sense if you’re chaining their souls to the black roses and black duelist rings.  Meaning they’re still burning down there.

That's an interesting point, where is the cut off point between Nemuro's past and Mikage's fantasy? According the Miki nobody dies in the fire, but that doesn't mean Akio didn't orchestrate the whole thing to get rid of them after he was done with them (I'm assuming that their main purpose was to build the duelist's forest and set the stage for what would ultimately evolve into the dueling games).

As for the black rose crests, do they really exist? Are they just illusions created by Mikage's false memories?

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#7 | Back to Top11-12-2011 01:23:35 PM

wblstudios
Banned
Registered: 08-17-2011
Posts: 564

Re: Mikage/Nemuro Question

Allegedly, the only difference between Nemuro's delusions and his reality is that in Nemuro's head, Mamiya set the building on fire.  But that delusion, which didn't set in until he was 'revived' as Mikage, masked the 'truth' that Nemuro was the one who set the place on fire.  During the run of the series, the only delusions are that Mikage looks at Utena and sees Mamiya's sister... and looks at Anthy and sees Mamiya.  That might be due to Akio's interference, as he is the king of deception.

As for Miki's statement, apparently, short answer is that it was supposed to wipe the incident from people's minds, not the history itself.  A scene mirroring the Mikage Seminar in the Series Finale helps relate that the incident did, in fact, happen.  But again, Akio is the king of lies and illusions.  So it's easy to attribute any and all discrepancies to him.

And as far as the black duelist's rings, if he existed, they existed.

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#8 | Back to Top11-18-2011 03:40:03 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Mikage/Nemuro Question

Giovanna wrote:

Unless I'm mistaken, that essay is the one Clarice let me steal to put on the analysis site: http://www.ohtori.nu/analysis/07_clarice_brs1.htm

This essay calls for cookies.school-chef

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#9 | Back to Top11-18-2011 09:24:44 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Mikage/Nemuro Question

My overwrought imagination and possibly faulty memory have me obsessing over the scene where Akio hands Nemuro a piece of paper that explains how to get eternity. Nemuro seems disgusted and shocked at first.  I suspect that the key words on that document were Le Sacrifice Humaine! written in ornate French script. But after all a pump needs to be primed. It would explain a lot that happens subsequently.

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