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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top10-24-2006 08:42:34 PM

ZSPACE
Touga Topper
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 57

Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

In Akio's arc the duelists are able to draw their own swords so this leads me to ask what is the difference between the heart and the soul? Is there a differnce between the mind, body, heart, and soul or are the all the same. Like Anthy has differnent forms. Lets go deeper...

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#2 | Back to Top10-24-2006 09:04:25 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4692

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

Both the heart and soul are rather important to the proccess, I think. The heart being the part of that person that can care about another, and the soul being the essence of that person.

What I've always wondered about is why the soul swords are darker when pulled out by the Black Rose duelists. If the sword is truly connected to the heart, then is it because these people have hurt them, and thereby taint their hearts so that they're less of a bright and pure color, or something to that extent?

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#3 | Back to Top10-24-2006 09:10:26 PM

ZSPACE
Touga Topper
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 57

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

Razara wrote:

Both the heart and soul are rather important to the proccess, I think. The heart being the part of that person that can care about another, and the soul being the essence of that person.

What I've always wondered about is why the soul swords are darker when pulled out by the Black Rose duelists. If the sword is truly connected to the heart, then is it because these people have hurt them, and thereby taint their hearts so that they're less of a bright and pure color, or something to that extent?

Maybe their hearts were already tainted in the black rose arc and thats why the swords were darker ( they were unable to pull a sword form the chest before) and it was part of a purification process for a more meaningful goal. Like in last duel chorus the intellectual of stone; setting your mind into one thougt ( confused)?

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#4 | Back to Top10-24-2006 09:15:14 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

I believe this may be connected to the same reason why the Sword of Dios turns dark in Akio's possession. It is forcefully taken, leaving only bitterness, regret, sorrow the works. Every negative emotion boiled up into the cursed sword. At least that's my take on it. For Miki's sword we have... Regret, loneliness, longing, deception, shame, and pity. Juri's sword is filled with many of the same things. Longing, deception, shame... can't think of more. Nanami's Sword's, had very little to do with the assigned person, other then misconception. Impatience is the best way to put it. Both Nanami and Tsuwabuki's styles are recklessly fast which may be involved somehow in their feelings. Saionji's Sword, is hard to place. His feeling's towards Wakaba are innocuous, with it being difficult to tell what he thought of the young woman. Touga's Sword is last, which is another hard one to place, though what he was going through at the time makes for a powerful Twisterd Soul Sword.


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#5 | Back to Top10-24-2006 09:18:05 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

The heart, to me, is a part of the soul if we're using the word 'soul' to mean their essence, everything that makes a person.

If we're using soul to mean life-force or energy, I believe it's connected to both. The soul's energy makes the sword manifest in a material form, the heart controls the sword's strength and actions (emotions conencted to it) and governs who can take it. People who are strongly connected to a person have a 'string' attached to the soul sword that enables them to take the sword even without consent from the person, while I imagine a stranger with no connections could not 'pull the string' and therefore, couldn't pull the sword.

Last edited by Ivy-chan (10-24-2006 09:18:49 PM)


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#6 | Back to Top10-24-2006 09:36:44 PM

Rosemary Bats
Mikage Mistruster
From: Gloucester, Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 62

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

My theories: school-sherlock

The swords only turn dark when they are pulled by an "impure" person. The Black Rose Duelists, though not really bad people, were in a state of total hate, betrayal, and aggression, and they took the swords forcibly, being able to do so because they "had a hold on" the swordbearer's heart already. The swords were not taken freely and by a person in a normal state of mind, so the swords weren't normal either.

It turns dark for Akio, I think, because the Sword of Dios was no longer the sword of the Prince. In Saionji's final duel, the Sword of Dios vanishes, not to be seen again until Akio pulls it. The sword Anthy pulls from Utena is NOW the Sword of the Prince: she had faith enough in Utena to pull her sword even after Dios' vanished (remembering Utena's words about being "coming to her" for help and being "friends like that"), and that Utena's sword was strong enough to protect her.

When Dios was replaced in this way--Anthy's faith in protection going from what her brother was, to her present friend--the sword blackened. When Akio pulls the sword from Anthy, THAT is the "Sword of Dios" fallen from grace...in the same way that Akio is the prince fallen from grace.

As to why Utena's soul-sword looked like the Sword of Dios, either 1. it was because it became the new sword of the prince, or 2. since the soul-swords pulled out of the other duelists matched the regular swords they once used, and Utena had dueled almost exclusively with Dios' sword, it mimiced it's appearance in the same way.


WARNING: Rabid fangirl and well of useless trivia; wielder of endless random theories; pervy fancier of all things Anthy and/or Chigusa.
-I have the honor of playing Tenjou Utena on LJ's wonderful UTENA_RPG.-

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#7 | Back to Top10-24-2006 09:47:38 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

That goes with my theory in the previous sword thread, the Prince's sword tarnishing at Akio's touch. The swords and the rings are made of seem to be very sensitive to the bearer's state of mind. Like very high tech mood rings, really.  emot-biggrin Also, it helps finding a princely sword if it's obviously identifiable by sight.

It's interesting to note that Touga's sword changed from a kendo blade to a rapier later on in the series, indicative perhaps of his more noble cause and the dramatic changes his character went through.


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#8 | Back to Top10-24-2006 11:49:08 PM

Rosemary Bats
Mikage Mistruster
From: Gloucester, Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 62

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

Ivy-chan wrote:

It's interesting to note that Touga's sword changed from a kendo blade to a rapier later on in the series, indicative perhaps of his more noble cause and the dramatic changes his character went through.

Yes, that's always interested me, esp. since we never see him using a longsword like that anywhere else in the series. He wasn't very committed to kendo in the first place--he seemed to be in it just to occasionally beat and humiliate his "friend"--so perhaps once he was focused on the more noble-minded goal of replacing himself as the sacrifice to End of the World in order to save Utena, his soul-sword became more princely than his infrequently-used katana in turn (not so much so as Utena's soul-sword, but still).

I find it funny that we seem to share the same views on so many of the little things in the series. emot-biggrin


WARNING: Rabid fangirl and well of useless trivia; wielder of endless random theories; pervy fancier of all things Anthy and/or Chigusa.
-I have the honor of playing Tenjou Utena on LJ's wonderful UTENA_RPG.-

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#9 | Back to Top10-25-2006 01:16:07 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

Touga's change of weapon interested me too, but that is an interesting point about his sword becoming more princely as his intentions became, while not pure, more noble than they were at the outset.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#10 | Back to Top10-25-2006 01:31:53 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Touga's change of weapon interested me too, but that is an interesting point about his sword becoming more princely as his intentions became, while not pure, more noble than they were at the outset.

...totally offhand comment here, but that reminds me of the exchange between Akio and Utena during their duel.

Akio:  I'm not a Duelist. Fighting me isn't some play duel.
Utena:  I was never playing when I dueled!
Akio:  No, you know nothing besides play duels. But if you don't put up your sword now, you'll find out how terrifying real duels are.


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#11 | Back to Top10-27-2006 11:00:20 AM

ZSPACE
Touga Topper
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 57

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

About the sword changing to a darker tone when someone with impure intentions draws it;when Akio takes Utena's sword, it stays the same. Why did it not change color, form, etc.?

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#12 | Back to Top10-27-2006 11:17:11 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

ZSPACE wrote:

About the sword changing to a darker tone when someone with impure intentions draws it;when Akio takes Utena's sword, it stays the same. Why did it not change color, form, etc.?

Well, one explanation is that Utena's sword was 'too pure' to be affected by Akio. Personally, I don't think so. There's something about the impure intentions theory that I can't put my finger on, but it's chewing at the back of my brain. I can't quite buy it and I don't know why. There's no real alternate explanation jumping out at me, though.


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#13 | Back to Top10-27-2006 07:01:47 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

Yasha wrote:

ZSPACE wrote:

About the sword changing to a darker tone when someone with impure intentions draws it;when Akio takes Utena's sword, it stays the same. Why did it not change color, form, etc.?

Well, one explanation is that Utena's sword was 'too pure' to be affected by Akio. Personally, I don't think so. There's something about the impure intentions theory that I can't put my finger on, but it's chewing at the back of my brain. I can't quite buy it and I don't know why. There's no real alternate explanation jumping out at me, though.

One possible reason why it didn't change was that by the time the duel named Revolution appeared, Utena's soul sword had already been 'forged' and cooled' and ready for use and once that occurs, Akio couldnt affect its nature anymore.  On the other hand, if he handled Utena's sword before then while it was in the process of been 'forged' he would have tainted then.


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#14 | Back to Top10-27-2006 07:24:55 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

That would mean that Dios's sword was unforged when it turned black, though. That can't happen if Touga touched it in his second duel and it didn't turn black-- his intentions were as impure as you can get. Well, without actually meaning to physically hurt someone (no, I don't think he meant to really hurt Utena in that duel, I think he just wanted to wave his cock around and make her see that he was terribly good with it).

I dunno. I have to think about this one.


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#15 | Back to Top10-28-2006 08:29:13 AM

ZSPACE
Touga Topper
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 57

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

During the black rose arc. The duelists get their soul/heart swords for the very first time; its like losing your virginity Utena style.

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#16 | Back to Top10-28-2006 11:37:15 AM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

Well, it could just mean that Touga wasn't nearly 'impure' enough to affect the sword that way. He may be an impurity, but Akio's a tarnishing agent. emot-biggrin

My answer to Utena's sword not changing color when Akio drew it is this: perhaps Akio's intentions are so strongly and physically represented in the sword of Dios is because that sword was once his and a part of him, and therefore is as strongly linked to him as Touga's shifting princely sword is to Touga. Utena's sword is another prince's sword, but it doesn't react to Akio personally.


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#17 | Back to Top10-28-2006 04:30:35 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

ZSPACE wrote:

During the black rose arc. The duelists get their soul/heart swords for the very first time; its like losing your virginity Utena style.

Via rape in Saionji's case. emot-redface


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#18 | Back to Top10-28-2006 07:55:09 PM

Rosemary Bats
Mikage Mistruster
From: Gloucester, Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 62

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

Yasha wrote:

That would mean that Dios's sword was unforged when it turned black, though. That can't happen if Touga touched it in his second duel and it didn't turn black-- his intentions were as impure as you can get. Well, without actually meaning to physically hurt someone (no, I don't think he meant to really hurt Utena in that duel, I think he just wanted to wave his cock around and make her see that he was terribly good with it).

I dunno. I have to think about this one.

Not necessarily. I have a theory which would account for both of these...you can agree or disagree, I'm just throwing it out there.

The reason Utena's didn't blacken and Dios' did had nothing to do with who drew them, as it did in the Black Rose Duels: Utena's sword had become "The Sword of the Prince" and therefore completely untarnished and Dios' had "fallen from grace" becoming a shadow of what it once was (much like Akio's relationship to Dios). Everyone assumes it blackened when Akio drew it, but WHY? It's the first time we've seen the Sword of Dios since it vanished mid-duel. It probably fell from grace once it had vanished, and assumed the appearance then. It's just never shown to the audience.

Last edited by Rosemary Bats (10-28-2006 07:55:36 PM)


WARNING: Rabid fangirl and well of useless trivia; wielder of endless random theories; pervy fancier of all things Anthy and/or Chigusa.
-I have the honor of playing Tenjou Utena on LJ's wonderful UTENA_RPG.-

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#19 | Back to Top10-28-2006 08:21:44 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

Rosemary Bats wrote:

The reason Utena's didn't blacken and Dios' did had nothing to do with who drew them, as it did in the Black Rose Duels: Utena's sword had become "The Sword of the Prince" and therefore completely untarnished and Dios' had "fallen from grace" becoming a shadow of what it once was (much like Akio's relationship to Dios). Everyone assumes it blackened when Akio drew it, but WHY? It's the first time we've seen the Sword of Dios since it vanished mid-duel. It probably fell from grace once it had vanished, and assumed the appearance then. It's just never shown to the audience.

Now that, I can understand. I think I've realized why the tarnishing bothered me so much, actually. I've never been able to see Akio as evil, and that's the kind of thing you associate with a truly evil character. Akio just seems massively selfish and almost unaware that his actions do anything other than amuse him. Then again, I have a skewed view of evil.

Also, come to think of it, if he and Anthy created the idea of Soul Swords, which I'm still pretty convinced of, that would be a massive flaw I don't think he would allow.

I always saw the Soul Swords in the BRS duel as being black because they were taken involuntarily. It made the most sense, considering that the swords are voluntarily drawn later, and they're perfectly fine...


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#20 | Back to Top10-28-2006 08:26:49 PM

Rosemary Bats
Mikage Mistruster
From: Gloucester, Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 62

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

Yasha wrote:

I always saw the Soul Swords in the BRS duel as being black because they were taken involuntarily. It made the most sense, considering that the swords are voluntarily drawn later, and they're perfectly fine...

Yeah, same here. When Akio drew Utena's sword, she wasn't exactly putting up a fuss about it. cool

Last edited by Rosemary Bats (10-28-2006 08:27:11 PM)


WARNING: Rabid fangirl and well of useless trivia; wielder of endless random theories; pervy fancier of all things Anthy and/or Chigusa.
-I have the honor of playing Tenjou Utena on LJ's wonderful UTENA_RPG.-

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#21 | Back to Top10-28-2006 09:41:27 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

Yasha wrote:

That would mean that Dios's sword was unforged when it turned black, though. That can't happen if Touga touched it in his second duel and it didn't turn black-- his intentions were as impure as you can get. Well, without actually meaning to physically hurt someone (no, I don't think he meant to really hurt Utena in that duel, I think he just wanted to wave his cock around and make her see that he was terribly good with it).

I dunno. I have to think about this one.

Maybe Dios's sword works differently, after all while Dios became Akio after Anthy removed a part of him, but Utena didn't change into dark-Utena when her sword was removed from her, so that suggests that how the Sword of Dios was formed and how a prince's sword is formed was by two different methods. school-sherlock

I just wish I could have explained it better. emot-redface


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#22 | Back to Top10-28-2006 10:12:14 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

About Utena's sword becoming the Prince's sword- that's why I thought that the sword disappeared in the first duel in the Akio Arc. That there could only be one 'Prince' at a time, and so when Utena's sword was completely forged and ready, Dios' sword dematerialized. There are probably different reasons for the darkening in color on soul swords, though, and forcefully taking a sword without consent could be one of those reasons- I just like the theory of 'tarnishing' better. I definitely see Akio as evil in a conventional sense, he  indirectly murdered one hundred boys, He broke Nemruro's mind to achieve his goals and discarded him when he wasn't useful, he takes pleasure in the suffering of others, and from what I've seen, he doesn't feel remorse about his actions with the Duelists. Not to mention that whole statutory rape thing. Evil doesn't mean incapable of sympathetic emotion or even love, but his actions and mindset don't strike me as anywhere good or even neutral.


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#23 | Back to Top10-28-2006 11:09:00 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

Ivy-chan wrote:

About Utena's sword becoming the Prince's sword- that's why I thought that the sword disappeared in the first duel in the Akio Arc. That there could only be one 'Prince' at a time, and so when Utena's sword was completely forged and ready, Dios' sword dematerialized. There are probably different reasons for the darkening in color on soul swords, though, and forcefully taking a sword without consent could be one of those reasons- I just like the theory of 'tarnishing' better. I definitely see Akio as evil in a conventional sense, he  indirectly murdered one hundred boys, He broke Nemruro's mind to achieve his goals and discarded him when he wasn't useful, he takes pleasure in the suffering of others, and from what I've seen, he doesn't feel remorse about his actions with the Duelists. Not to mention that whole statutory rape thing. Evil doesn't mean incapable of sympathetic emotion or even love, but his actions and mindset don't strike me as anywhere good or even neutral.

You could almost believe that Akio Ohtori and Gendo Ikari were cut from the same cloth when you think about the sort of things they have both done...scary!


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#24 | Back to Top10-29-2006 01:07:00 AM

Almaser
Qualified Duellist
From: Brisbane
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 727

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

Rosemary Bats wrote:

Yasha wrote:

I always saw the Soul Swords in the BRS duel as being black because they were taken involuntarily. It made the most sense, considering that the swords are voluntarily drawn later, and they're perfectly fine...

Yeah, same here. When Akio drew Utena's sword, she wasn't exactly putting up a fuss about it. cool

And not to forget, when the Black Rose swords are drawn, it's painful and usually done with shadows.
When Akio pulls out Utena's, he uses the orb-of-light method, which to me says that he's doing something that is, at some level, consented to.
Perhaps it's not darkened simply because he's too damn sexy to refuse, in that sense?

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#25 | Back to Top10-29-2006 03:37:16 PM

Rosemary Bats
Mikage Mistruster
From: Gloucester, Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 62

Re: Are the swords connected to the heart or the soul?

Tamago wrote:

Ivy-chan wrote:

About Utena's sword becoming the Prince's sword- that's why I thought that the sword disappeared in the first duel in the Akio Arc. That there could only be one 'Prince' at a time, and so when Utena's sword was completely forged and ready, Dios' sword dematerialized. There are probably different reasons for the darkening in color on soul swords, though, and forcefully taking a sword without consent could be one of those reasons- I just like the theory of 'tarnishing' better. I definitely see Akio as evil in a conventional sense, he  indirectly murdered one hundred boys, He broke Nemruro's mind to achieve his goals and discarded him when he wasn't useful, he takes pleasure in the suffering of others, and from what I've seen, he doesn't feel remorse about his actions with the Duelists. Not to mention that whole statutory rape thing. Evil doesn't mean incapable of sympathetic emotion or even love, but his actions and mindset don't strike me as anywhere good or even neutral.

You could almost believe that Akio Ohtori and Gendo Ikari were cut from the same cloth when you think about the sort of things they have both done...scary!

Gendo, however, recognized his wrongdoings and even asked for Shinji's forgiveness (even though Shinji wasn't present) before he died (or was assimilated into Lilith). Akio was just like "oh well, she's dead, let's start the game over again, sis!" emot-keke (Not saying Akio's 'evil', no one in the series is TRULY good OR evil, they're too human for that crap...just saying he'd never ask forgiveness from anyone.) school-devil

Last edited by Rosemary Bats (10-29-2006 03:38:19 PM)


WARNING: Rabid fangirl and well of useless trivia; wielder of endless random theories; pervy fancier of all things Anthy and/or Chigusa.
-I have the honor of playing Tenjou Utena on LJ's wonderful UTENA_RPG.-

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