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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top10-24-2006 12:06:17 AM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

A link of a prince

Okay, I need to make this quick so I don't ruin my one and a half hour sleep stages.. >_>;

This is another thread that stemmed from "Utena's got a damn big sword" to avoid off-topicness and clutter. emot-keke

Okay, Utena, Akio, and Anthy.. all have a common bond about be associated with Dios. But who is controlling Dios? Who is the Dios we see later on at the end? Who's influence is it, if just one particular person, or does it vary? Is it just that there is a little Dios in everyone? For Akio, the remains of what he used to be, for Utena what she strives to become or is already becoming, for Anthy the power of Dios within her?

Akio -was- Dios until Anthy took the sword of Dios. Then he changed to Akio. Anthy has the sword of Dios inside her, and she is "the power of Dios". Utena is the "new prince" and shows many of the princely qualities that Dios showed.

I'm leaning on Anthy, myself. The Sword of Dios is inside her, and like I said in the previous thread, there are similarities between how Anthy treated Utena and how Dios treated Utena near the end. Anthy stabbed Utena, but it may have been for her own protection (this is debatable) and she told Utena that she couldn't be her prince because she's a girl. Dios says pretty much the same thing when Utena is down, saying it's okay that she failed. Come to think of it, in Utena's real flash-back, Dios also didn't seem to believe that Utena could become a prince because she was a girl.

I'm also starting to think that Anthy unconsciously influences the power of Dios as well. So in a way only a prince noble enough to "win" Anthy over.. emotionally.. would win all of the duels to get to that power. We see the Power of Dios and Anthy herself do things in the duel to purposely make Utena win. It seems doubtful to me that any of the other duelists would have came close because Anthy didn't like them nearly as much as she likes Utena. Utena wants to protect her, is kind to her and is noble and honourable, just like Dios.


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#2 | Back to Top10-24-2006 06:23:17 AM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
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Re: A link of a prince

Well really it could be either one of them, or both at different times. It's Akio that wants the meeting between 'Dios' and a child Utena to happen, but he's not the one that gains from Dios' being there in the last episode, and I doubt he'd have put that particular set of words in Dios' mouth since he didn't want her to get up.

Also, the behavior you see from Dios perhaps supports that it's different siblings at different times. Dios in the flashback speaks from a position where he understands, and he's convincingly innocent but leading still. He..well...sounds like how Akio would portray him from his vantage point. There's even an emphasis made on his inability to do anything, and while that seems like a natural part of the conversation, he was yapping enough that had he wanted to dodge explaining that Dios was helpless, he could easily have done so. Dios in the last episode is more, hm...active? He protects Utena with no regard at all for Anthy, which I think is how Anthy would present him, since that's what she remembers vs. what Akio must fake (that he would save her).

It's morning and I'm getting yelled at by my boss which makes me want to punch his ugly face in, so this may be a bunch of nonsense.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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#3 | Back to Top10-24-2006 07:05:23 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: A link of a prince

Giovanna wrote:

Well really it could be either one of them, or both at different times. It's Akio that wants the meeting between 'Dios' and a child Utena to happen, but he's not the one that gains from Dios' being there in the last episode, and I doubt he'd have put that particular set of words in Dios' mouth since he didn't want her to get up.

Also, the behavior you see from Dios perhaps supports that it's different siblings at different times. Dios in the flashback speaks from a position where he understands, and he's convincingly innocent but leading still. He..well...sounds like how Akio would portray him from his vantage point. There's even an emphasis made on his inability to do anything, and while that seems like a natural part of the conversation, he was yapping enough that had he wanted to dodge explaining that Dios was helpless, he could easily have done so. Dios in the last episode is more, hm...active? He protects Utena with no regard at all for Anthy, which I think is how Anthy would present him, since that's what she remembers vs. what Akio must fake (that he would save her).

It's morning and I'm getting yelled at by my boss which makes me want to punch his ugly face in, so this may be a bunch of nonsense.

Hmm, I had not thought of that before, that Akio wants Dios to meet child-Utena. Just to get another duelist a few years later? Or maybe to have someone more like Mikage lined up? I have always assumed Dios was more of a spirit remnant of the good part of him that isn't present in Akio but I'll have to think about that.

The part where Utena is running up to Anthy and Dios seems to be musing to himself (I don't think she can hear him) he says that the prince Anthy loves is no longer, that he is now Worlds End. The way he says that seems a bit bitter or disapproving like Dios doesn't like the way Akio turned out. Or a different interpretation could be that Dios is expressing Akio's bitterness at not having Dios' power.

Sorry about your boss.

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#4 | Back to Top10-24-2006 07:18:06 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: A link of a prince

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

I'm leaning on Anthy, myself. The Sword of Dios is inside her, and like I said in the previous thread, there are similarities between how Anthy treated Utena and how Dios treated Utena near the end. Anthy stabbed Utena, but it may have been for her own protection (this is debatable) and she told Utena that she couldn't be her prince because she's a girl. Dios says pretty much the same thing when Utena is down, saying it's okay that she failed. Come to think of it, in Utena's real flash-back, Dios also didn't seem to believe that Utena could become a prince because she was a girl.

I'm also starting to think that Anthy unconsciously influences the power of Dios as well. So in a way only a prince noble enough to "win" Anthy over.. emotionally.. would win all of the duels to get to that power. We see the Power of Dios and Anthy herself do things in the duel to purposely make Utena win. It seems doubtful to me that any of the other duelists would have came close because Anthy didn't like them nearly as much as she likes Utena. Utena wants to protect her, is kind to her and is noble and honourable, just like Dios.

I'm certain that Dios is goading Utena when he says that it's okay if she doesn't save Anthy. He's prodding her to get back up by shaming her into doing so. Anthy might not believe it completely but that is Dios' role in that scene, to get Utena back on her feet. At this point I might even argue that, if Dios isn't real or just a manifestation, then in that scene, Utena herself might be thinking of what her prince might do in this situation, what Dios might say to her IF he were really there because when she slams her fist down and decides to get up, he has disappeared.

As for Anthy, I agree that over the final arc of the series, she is transferring her feelings for Dios to Utena. That idea is setup pretty well during the bedtime conversation they have when Utena tells Anthy she wishes Anthy would come to her with her problems and that they can be friends that help each other. There is a quick shot of Anthy embracing Dios which seems to indicate that Anthy is equating what Utena is saying with Dios in her mind.

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#5 | Back to Top10-24-2006 04:14:00 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: A link of a prince

Giovanna wrote:

Well really it could be either one of them, or both at different times. It's Akio that wants the meeting between 'Dios' and a child Utena to happen, but he's not the one that gains from Dios' being there in the last episode, and I doubt he'd have put that particular set of words in Dios' mouth since he didn't want her to get up.

Also, the behavior you see from Dios perhaps supports that it's different siblings at different times. Dios in the flashback speaks from a position where he understands, and he's convincingly innocent but leading still. He..well...sounds like how Akio would portray him from his vantage point. There's even an emphasis made on his inability to do anything, and while that seems like a natural part of the conversation, he was yapping enough that had he wanted to dodge explaining that Dios was helpless, he could easily have done so. Dios in the last episode is more, hm...active? He protects Utena with no regard at all for Anthy, which I think is how Anthy would present him, since that's what she remembers vs. what Akio must fake (that he would save her).

It's morning and I'm getting yelled at by my boss which makes me want to punch his ugly face in, so this may be a bunch of nonsense.

Yeah, I definitely think that the Dios little!Utena met was Akio, or Dios who changed into Akio. He said he was now End of The World and thus he couldn't save Anthy. (almost typed End of the Forums. XD; ) Interesting that little Utena kept telling Dios/Akio to save Anthy but he wouldn't, and then at the end of the anime she keeps telling Akio to save Anthy.

Akio, End of the World, still looks very much like Dios back then, though. I wonder how fast his appearence changed after that.

Dani wrote:

I'm certain that Dios is goading Utena when he says that it's okay if she doesn't save Anthy. He's prodding her to get back up by shaming her into doing so. Anthy might not believe it completely but that is Dios' role in that scene, to get Utena back on her feet. At this point I might even argue that, if Dios isn't real or just a manifestation, then in that scene, Utena herself might be thinking of what her prince might do in this situation, what Dios might say to her IF he were really there because when she slams her fist down and decides to get up, he has disappeared.

As for Anthy, I agree that over the final arc of the series, she is transferring her feelings for Dios to Utena. That idea is setup pretty well during the bedtime conversation they have when Utena tells Anthy she wishes Anthy would come to her with her problems and that they can be friends that help each other. There is a quick shot of Anthy embracing Dios which seems to indicate that Anthy is equating what Utena is saying with Dios in her mind.

I'm not sure if it's Utena or Anthy that is controlling Dios at that point. @_@ Well, if it was Akio in the beginning that met Child!Utena, then Anthy controlling the duels, and then a manifestation of part of Utena at the end.. but when Utena opened the coffin and found the Power of Dios, it was Anthy. Maybe the Dios at the end was her perception of Dios at that point, after finding out about how Akio really was.. damn it, my head hurts. Either way, it looks like Dios was trying to get her to get up using reverse psychology. I can imagine that as a little part of Utena mocking herself and thus making herself angry and determined again.But.. I don't know. Ow.


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
And you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

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#6 | Back to Top10-24-2006 04:55:41 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: A link of a prince

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

I'm not sure if it's Utena or Anthy that is controlling Dios at that point. @_@ Well, if it was Akio in the beginning that met Child!Utena, then Anthy controlling the duels, and then a manifestation of part of Utena at the end.. but when Utena opened the coffin and found the Power of Dios, it was Anthy. Maybe the Dios at the end was her perception of Dios at that point, after finding out about how Akio really was.. damn it, my head hurts. Either way, it looks like Dios was trying to get her to get up using reverse psychology. I can imagine that as a little part of Utena mocking herself and thus making herself angry and determined again.But.. I don't know. Ow.

Yes! Reverse psychology, that was the phrase I was trying to think of. Yep, Utena has used that method of making herself determined again before, most notably in the first arc when she lost Anthy to Touga.

And I love Akio and Dios lounging on the floor while Akio is sipping his "Utena-pink lemonade" or whatever, meanwhile Utena is tearing her heart out trying to get the door open. That shot of Dios walking behind the glass in the foreground is one of the best composed shots of the series.

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#7 | Back to Top10-27-2006 04:31:51 AM

Joku_Krypfto
Saionji Slapper
From: Finland
Registered: 10-27-2006
Posts: 21

Re: A link of a prince

Giovanna wrote:

Also, the behavior you see from Dios perhaps supports that it's different siblings at different times. Dios in the flashback speaks from a position where he understands, and he's convincingly innocent but leading still. He..well...sounds like how Akio would portray him from his vantage point. There's even an emphasis made on his inability to do anything, and while that seems like a natural part of the conversation, he was yapping enough that had he wanted to dodge explaining that Dios was helpless, he could easily have done so. Dios in the last episode is more, hm...active? He protects Utena with no regard at all for Anthy, which I think is how Anthy would present him, since that's what she remembers vs. what Akio must fake (that he would save her).

*nodnod* Hmm... Possible parallels with the portrayal of Touga in the movie? Akio's Dios and Anthy's Dios... Utena's Touga and Shiori's Touga...


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#8 | Back to Top10-08-2007 05:12:57 AM

Stephanie
Yasha Assassin #1
From: Philippines
Registered: 10-01-2007
Posts: 615
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Re: A link of a prince

Sorry, I know this is an old topic, but just wanna put on what I understood..

When Utena was a child, the night her parents died, it all appears to us that it is "Dios", the prince who is kind, warm, etc. but, as Akio mentioned himself before, he was already Akio/End-Of-The-World and no longer "Dios"

Going back to archetypical symbols, Utena saw Akio as Dios before contrary on what she wants to believe, on what her "PRINCE" is..

Like people in love, some describe the love of their lives or adorations or idols as a "GODDESS" or "GOD" or whatever 'perfect' being out there.. When Utena finally meets her 'prince' and which was still her 'prince' since Akio is no longer Dios when he met her, it turns out he wasn't really what she had imagined for so long..

Again, going back to director's comments, there are no such thing as prince, princess, castles, witch, etc.. These are all mere illusions of a child.. And in the movie, we saw Utena became an adolescent..


Anyway, these I'm not sure of..
1.) In not a symbolical archetypal discussion, what does it mean that Anthy 'sealed' away Dios from Akio?
2.) Dios, representing purity, which, going back to the director's comments, represents a child since all adults are unpure, does it mean Akio wants to become a child again? Pure, with hopes and good intentions all the time?
3.) In not a symbolical archetypal discussion, why was Anthy a witch anyway? What do you think the '1000 swords' represent? People's sarcasm? People hating her?

Sorry, just lost in my own little thinking.. emot-rolleyes


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#9 | Back to Top10-11-2007 01:38:20 AM

Stephanie
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From: Philippines
Registered: 10-01-2007
Posts: 615
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Re: A link of a prince

I know get why Anthy is called a "witch", in the movie..

She was the cause of the 'prince's death' or her brother's death.. Everybody despised her.. As Akio said as he was talking to the phone with Touga, the prince was really the 'lord of flies' (akio), he just became prince (dios) through her sister's magic (must be love?), Anthy is really a witch, Akio said as they were having the conversation in the land of the dead..

Now, I have applied the 'witch' of Anthy in the movie, but not really in the episode.. Any of you know why in the episode?

Anthy became the 'rose bride' to princes, and she has no will of her own, she has lost the power to love.. Thousand swords pertain to everyone's hatred for her..

Just my own enterpratation.. n_n


Also, I noticed a lot of things, like:
1.) when Jury asked Miki why he was in the duel, a plate named 'Kozue' appeared..
2.) When Utena was standing in the corner of the rose gardern, Anthy asked if she was scared to be in that position, yet we see Anthy in that place in the rose garden
3.) The crocodile that Nanami cow also inhaled was the same drawing that Shiori drew in Touga's back
4.) I think the car in the movie relates to the car scenes of Akio as well in the series
5.) Utena and Touga scene, Touga said everything was made to fill the gap, since there were no longer miracles.. So that everyone can look forward to something, and down right there, Utena said there were no prince to start with, hence the idea of her and Anthy to ran away from the illusionary academy to stop for the search for the castle.. As the 2ND ending did say, "Ah it's just an empty motion.. Just an empty motion, that's what it is.."

She became the car, and now it's Anthy's turn to be the duelist to fight her way out of Ohtori

An entrance of the old scene where her brother said without a key, the car will rust.. Remember Utena's words?

"Let's help each other"

Shiori was gaining on Himemiya, but she has no driver.. We were never meant to face the world alone in this life.. I guess that's what it wanted to portray

The multiple black cars are still the desires running after Himemiya again.. She just left afterall, so it's natural that not everything is said goodbye to

Nevertheless, they fought their way, not to mention a little help from friends.. emot-smile
(As I mentioned, 'little', it's still Anthy fighting through the end and mostly)

(Anyway, all these are my own interpretation)

Question:
1.) What is the key to Akio's car anyway? Anthy opened the 'Utena Car' with the duelist ring as the key..
2.) I still don't get how Anthy could be the key to the castle.. Sure, she's the rose bride, but logically speaking, if we look at all the symbolisms, it just doesn't fit for me.. How can Himemiya grant access to the castle up in the sky?


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#10 | Back to Top10-14-2007 07:45:40 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: A link of a prince

Stephanie wrote:

Shiori was gaining on Himemiya, but she has no driver.. We were never meant to face the world alone in this life.. I guess that's what it wanted to portray

Can't answer your questions but that's a really cool observation.

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#11 | Back to Top10-15-2007 01:45:03 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: A link of a prince

Stephanie wrote:

1.) What is the key to Akio's car anyway? Anthy opened the 'Utena Car' with the duelist ring as the key..

I have no idea! emot-dance

If the key always had to be a signet, how does Shiori drive hers without Juri, who is the Wakaba Jeep? How does the Wakaba Jeep run without ____ movie character that would be the key? Anthy gets a key to the Utena car, though; in the case of both Wakaba and Shiori they are their cars, they're not being driven by anyone, aside from Juri driving Wakaba's. Probably not the same emotional connection Utena and Anthy have, there. For all of them though there's the being a car, or being entitled to drive another person that's being a car. Akio is both a human character and a car, and apparently incapable of driving himself.

Maybe a stretch but all I can think of there is that Akio's howling about needing to find his key is not so much him looking for an actual key, but looking for someone capable of becoming that key, which doesn't seem to exist, or no one's willing to be that. Anthy might have been capable of 'saving' him, but if you go by the series, it's Anthy that cages him, and up for grabs whether it's that he needs to be saved from her or from himself. I always interpreted the him looking for his key thing as a cry for help, fitting because he is a much more ah...sensitive...character in the movie. emot-rolleyes


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#12 | Back to Top10-15-2007 06:19:34 PM

Suyo
Tenjou Tilter
From: Washington
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 82

Re: A link of a prince

Stephanie wrote:

Shiori was gaining on Himemiya, but she has no driver.. We were never meant to face the world alone in this life.. I guess that's what it wanted to portray

Woul dyou mind if I stole that from you? o.<
The "We were never meant to face the world alone..." part?
D;


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#13 | Back to Top10-15-2007 11:50:14 PM

Stephanie
Yasha Assassin #1
From: Philippines
Registered: 10-01-2007
Posts: 615
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Re: A link of a prince

@Mrs. Akio
Now that I think about it, it may be that the symbolism of Anthy sealing Dios away from Akio is Akio's love for Anthy.. I remember the shadow girl's play in The Tale of the Rose, and it said there that "I cannot be a princess because I'm your sister, therefore I became a WITCH!"

I think, even in their world (besides anime being an escape fantasy), they never viewed incest as truly acceptable in their society and hence, they got burned.. (But, they should've known better, like probably some of us here posters as well, that it doesn't matter and they're the only ones putting their own self into the burrow.. so what if it's not acceptable in the society?)

So, inlove with his sister, Akio stop being a prince to everyone.. And I still don't know how that, in the TV series, projects to Anthy's 1000 swords.. Akio, in the movie, is the 'Lord of Flies', it's who he really is, must be pertaining to how he drug his sister every night.. Anthy, having Akio died in the movie, is her thorn.. her 1000 swords.. It's her fault.. Her beloved died..

Damn it! I wish the director could explain the '1000' swords, Anthy being witch and all.. I'm really lost emot-rofl

@Suyo
Go right ahead.. emot-biggrin

poptart


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#14 | Back to Top10-16-2007 01:13:33 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: A link of a prince

Ohh, I like that. It would explain a lot of difference there, that the incest came first. In the series I tend to assume it came after, there's no suggestion of it prior to Akio.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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#15 | Back to Top10-24-2007 05:53:15 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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Re: A link of a prince

No, but it's definitely a more ecumenical way of dividing the blame.  We have that climactic moment by the cabin where events coincide.  Or Anthy caging Dios in the castle.  And, maybe there wasn't consummated incest before then.  But realistically, Dios didn't become Akio in a single moment.  She says she is the only girl in the world who can't become a Princess, so she has no choice but to become a Witch.  (And certainly I think Anthy is the world's scapegoat.)  The girl Dios presumably loves most in the world is also the only girl he can't be a Prince to without damning himself.  The incest is an external expression of their rebellion against the society/world that put them in that position.  'Fine, we'll be Witch and Devil together.'

Why was Anthy a witch anyway? What do you think the '1000 swords' represent? People's sarcasm? People hating her?

Anthy was a Witch for several reasons.  You told a story about a wounded bird in another thread that explains why Anthy behaves as a Witch.  But people view Anthy as a Witch before she really becomes one.  I think, on one hand, for the reason she said--if she's the only girl in the world who isn't a Princess, what is she?  In the fairy tales, the polar opposite of the Princess (Snow White/Cinderella), is the Witch (The Queen/Evil Stepmother).  In context of what I feel is the truer Tale of the Rose, Anthy had a claim on the Prince no one else could.  It didn't bring her happiness--on the contrary, it brought her more suffering than the lucky girls who could be Princesses.  She was a strange, lonely figure who had no connections to anyone but Dios.  This made her despised and feared.  And when she takes the initiative to attempt to protect Dios, she is stoned, lynched--stabbed to "death" by the mob.  Those swords are symbols of humanity's hatred for her, symbols of how she is a scapegoat (taking blame for everything in place of the Prince).  In the context of her life as a 'normal girl at school', the swords are the metaphorical "sticks and stones" of the world Anthy lives in.

But an interesting note about my fluid representation of Anthy in Tale of the Rose--when she steps outside the cabin and closes the door, don't the people ask out loud who she is?  Why might that be...?

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (10-24-2007 06:05:26 PM)


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#16 | Back to Top10-24-2007 09:52:18 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: A link of a prince

Stephanie wrote:

Damn it! I wish the director could explain the '1000' swords, Anthy being witch and all.. I'm really lost emot-rofl

In addition to other things mentioned, there always has to be a witch. Someone whose fault it is, someone or something who keeps things from being OK, and if only we could kill them/re-educate them or whatever, then things would be OK.

Suposedly words cannot kill but Anthy finds that they can skewer.

The world seems to have been thrown out of balance. The balance between Akio/Dios was disrupted and Anthy became a witch. There is some mythological principle involved which I am still trying to understand.

But going back to particulars, notice Anthy's dress, it would be scandalous on a grown woman and pathetic or worse on Anthy. Its appearance and the way she lets it hang implies that she is already partly "fallen" and Dios has not noticed; or she is desperately using her femininity inappropriately to beguile him from his mission. (I don't like lurid interpretations but one could even suppose that she seduces Dios in order to tie him down to the world, you can't get witchier than that.) Perhaps there was a conspiracy by Anthy and Akio to imprison Dios for his own good. Anthy realized her mistake too late; Akio runs amok, Dios is comatose, and she has to be a Rose Bride and a Shrine Princess.

I always have a hard time taking any of the incest seriously as incest; I always see it as symbolic of spiritual incest. Arguably none of the usual suspects, including Kozue, are really prone to incestuous sexual desires but are instead spiritually stagnant and turned inwardly when they should be looking outward. Perhaps they are all acting out Anthy's primal inability to let go of Dios. Utena provides her with something better to hang onto, but her final message seems to be, Let Go of Me. Afterwards, they can shine together.

Last edited by brian (10-24-2007 09:57:58 PM)

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