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#26 | Back to Top05-01-2007 11:03:26 PM

Stormcrow
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From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Originally posted in the wrong thread:

I also realized that what I said wasn't completely accurate in one regard.  Even if you attempt to enter into a genuine dialog with someone, some people will just throw it back in your face.  Such behavior is despicable, and I understand how much it hurts.  Mocha, I am truly, deeply sorry for the insults you have suffered.  Had I been present for the incidents you describe, I would have set some people down very firmly.  As a Jew, I can do that without being unjustly accused of unspeakable crimes, but you have no such protection.  I wasn't there, and it wasn't my fault, but I still feel bad, because getting something like that laid on you just makes it harder to engage in genuine dialog in the future.  You should be proud of yourself that you're still willing to even bring the subject up.  etc-loveetc-loveetc-love to you.


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#27 | Back to Top05-01-2007 11:21:01 PM

MissMocha
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From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

It's not like it's a big deal, honestly. She was part of a group of students that I enjoyed putting down for various reasons, her religion was a part of it, but more on the fact that she's religious at all, and not that she's Jewish. Unfortunatly, it's a sad truth that some people are just too close minded to accept that the world isn't as they think it is, or should be. My parents didn't bring me up with any religion, which is one of the reasons I've always felt qualified as an impartial observer. I was also raised in a slum for five years, and then the house that we've lived in for nearly 16 years. So race isn't a thing either. it's just interesting because I remember my dad telling me once about an old saying "shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations." And what's sad is that I've watched it in action. I used to know a guy a few years older then me, who lived a couple houses down, his father was a pediatric doctor, but his grandparents had immigrated from Haiti. His parents had him late in life because he and the guy's mother worked hard, putting him through school, and stuff. So he was thier only child. He works construction now, after dropping out of high school and smoking pot. It just seems that as a culture in america, we don't really teach the value of hard work anymore. Sure I waited a coupl years to go to school, but now I know what the hell I wanna do for the next several years of my life. I'm kind of thankful now that we didn't get a tv till I was four or five (no cable till I was seven! lol). I have fond memories of Sesame Street and stuff, but I was also the only kid in my school to read above grade level for the first two years. emot-frown

That's more a state of the world thing, I guess, but I think it ties in. We use the idiot box to educate so much, and never stop to think about just how educational things may or may not be. Things set us with opinions that we end up keeping, and can't quite disregard, as much as we know they're stupid.


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#28 | Back to Top05-02-2007 06:31:18 AM

Stormcrow
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From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Yeah, it's a statistical fact that among blacks and hispanics, immigrants and the children of immigrants in America perform far better academically than third or greater generation Americans.  I find that downright depressing.  I wonder if most undocumented immigrants are aware of this fact?  Never mind, they probably are, which is even more depressing.

I was up most of last night thinking about our conversation, and I feel like I've really learned something.  I've already mentioned my racist friend.  I finally realized that the contempt I have for him is only different from the contempt that that girl showed for you by degrees.  Even though he actually is racist, unlike you, it's something I need to get past.  I do get angry with him sometimes when he shares his opinions on the subject with me, which is totally the wrong response.  I don't think mentioning this conversation with him would be a good idea, but I feel like I can be a better friend to him now.  Thanks for the school-eng101.


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#29 | Back to Top05-02-2007 03:29:24 PM

Yasha
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From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Test! Test! Everyone likes tests!

So far I've scored little to no association on everything, though. I don't know how useful this is.

Edit: Except apparently I like Jewish people? I don't even know any, I don't think...

Last edited by Yasha (05-02-2007 03:40:12 PM)


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#30 | Back to Top05-02-2007 09:01:47 PM

Stormcrow
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From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Yasha wrote:

Test! Test! Everyone likes tests!

So far I've scored little to no association on everything, though. I don't know how useful this is.

Edit: Except apparently I like Jewish people? I don't even know any, I don't think...

Well, we are good in the sack. emot-biggrin


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#31 | Back to Top05-02-2007 09:16:05 PM

Stormcrow
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From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Sorry to say but these tests are based on some rather questionable methodological choices.  I just took the one about President Bush relating to other presidents and although I happen to despise President Bush, linking Lincoln (linkin' Lincoln?) with the good words first sets up that association in working memory, so it's only natural that my responses would slow down when they're swapped.  Maybe if I take some more tests I'll have more respect for them, but I think the science is a little weak here. emot-frown


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#32 | Back to Top05-02-2007 09:39:08 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Unfortunately, simply reading a thread like this gets me upset.  So I'm not in any position to sound impartial.  I think it does vary by location within the US.  And I think that racism against blacks is probably worse in the south, overall.  But I've only ever lived in the south, so I have no comparison.  Our history, I think, is a good hint.

I'm Southern and white.  And I was raised in a very racist family, descended from sharecroppers.  Strangely, my mother taught me to *think* about it while being racist herself.  She encouraged me to have black friends as a child.  On the other hand, my father sat me down at the age of 9 when my mother was out of town for a "heart-to-heart".  He asked me if I would ever marry a black man.  I replied that I might, if I fell in love with a black person, but that there weren't very many black people in my class at school and that they didn't really talk to me, so I didn't think we had much in common.  He informed me that this was not the correct answer.  (I think that South Park episode had a point.)

I classify myself as a misanthrope.  I have a distrust and antipathy toward "humanity" in a general sense.  People. Are. Stupid.  God, are they stupid.  Myself, as you will see, included.  However, just because a lot of snot-nosed white kids cry "reverse racism" without knowing what in hell they are talking about doesn't mean they are entirely wrong.

I'm not saying black people have it easy.  I lived with my dad for 18 years.  I *know* what it's like to be scorned and despised.  I know what it's like to walk into a room and feel *afraid* of people.  I can only imperfectly imagine how my own experiences would compare to being born with the legacy of slavery and the reality of racism today.  At least I'm a majority race and straight--I never had to deal with any of that.

Yes, we need to study history so we don't repeat its mistakes.  But we need to study it AS HISTORY.  None of my black peers were slaves.  And there was not a damn thing new about slavery, or about mass-murder, or about oppression, or about ANY or ALL of those things being applied to one group based on their ethnicity.  But what do we hear about in the public school system?  Black slavery, the Holocaust, and occasionally Pol Pot.

In elementary school, when my dad was temporarily living elsewhere, I played with a black girl in our apartment complex.  One night she invited me to spend the night and my mom gave her permission.  Her mom asked if the dinner was alright, because she was sure a "white girl" might want better.  I also overheard her telling her daughter that the sleeping arrangements might not be comfortable for me.  I remember the experience only vaguely, but I guess her mom didn't like me.  Was that because I'm white?  Why jump to that conclusion?

In middle school, there was a black girl who had the same name as me.  I liked her name, my last best friend had the same name as me too.  I tried to be her friend.  At that time I couldn't have cared less that she was black, though I'm sure I had some childish ignorant bullshit in my head even then.  This girl would not give me the time of freaking day.  She only hung out with other black people.  I remember it hurt my feelings.  And later I would look back and see cues that told me her disinterest was based on the fact that I was white.

In American Government in high school we were studying Brown v. The Board of Education.  Obviously this study included conversation on racism.  Some comment was made about a black person being racist and a black boy piped up with this gloriously intelligent observation: "Black people can't BE racist.  Racism means white people hating black people."  Only one person in the entire class had the courage to contradict him.  I think he was forced to regret it as he was confronted after class, though I don't believe it turned violent.

My first year of college, I worked at a movie theater.  I had been there for nearly a year and thought I was friends with most of the people there, about half of which were black.  Not with Sheldon, who was very quiet and with whom I was rarely scheduled.  And not with Serena, who had once told me to go sit by myself during a lull because she, Dawn, and Jaqueline were having a "black conversation."  But certainly with Dawn and Jacqueline, both of whom I worked with often and liked very much.  That's why what happened bothered me so much.

Everyone there teased me often about being "anti-social".  They made fun of my social awkwardness, my lack of extracurricular social activities, my ignorance of slang and pop culture.  One day, Jacqueline was doing a dance in the middle of lobby.  I smiled and her and said, "Ha, is that how you go dancing at clubs?"  She didn't hear me, and I repeated, "You know, when you guys go to clubs, is that the kind of 'dance' you people do at clubs?"  In my mind, this was a reference to the teasing directed toward me, and was a bit of self-mockery.  Jacqueline got quiet.  But Jacqueline was often a little odd, so I didn't think anything of it.

Until every single black person at the theater stopped speaking to me.  They asked to be scheduled so they didn't have to work with me.  When I went into the box office to ask for change, Dawn was completely cold, rude, and threw the bills on the floor rather than handing them to me.  The only reason it ended was because Patrick asked me one night when we were both staying late what the heck was going on.  Patrick was mixed--part white, part black, part asian.  I guess the black part superseded the white part so far as Jacqueline had been concerned, because she passed the message, "She's racist.  She made a racist comment to me.  Don't talk to her." on to Patrick as well.

I explained and Patrick said, "Well, you should stay away from ever saying 'you people.'  But it didn't make sense when she told me, it didn't seem like you."  I argued that I should be able to say "you people" to a *friend* as part of a *joke* without them deciding it's some kind of racist thing rather than a "You socially adapted people who go out to clubs and dance rather than stay home on a computer."  All he could say was that I didn't understand what it was like to be black.  Which I grant you I don't.  But that's when I realized that I was wrong--Jacqueline and Dawn hadn't been my friends.  In the end, I was never going to be accepted in the same way I might have been if I had been even a quarter black.

Maybe I was a bit oversensitive to rejection when I was younger.  But this really upset me.  And, since then, I have come to realize that over the years I have *learned* to be more racist.  I have been *taught* that I cannot be blind to a person's skin color.  I am not *allowed* to talk to a black person in the same casual way as a white person.  If I don't watch every word that comes out of my mouth, I may be branded as racist.  And if any black person shows me the least bit of interest and makes overtures of frienship, this story ends up pouring out.  And all I can ask is: why?

Is that really right?  Is it just me, my personality, my idiotic awkwardness?  Or is it, as I have come to feel, simply an indication of an indoctrinated double-standard born from badly-aimed resentment?  If we want to get rid of racism, does it make sense to continuously reinforce the consciousness of race in that way?  There is never an honest dialouge when either side is afraid of persecution.  And BOTH sides, when well-meaning, are afraid of persecution.

No.  It's not fair.  And it's idiotic.  From personal experience I know that if you assume that people are out to get you, that they will turn on you at any time, that you are inferior, you will never be able to deal fairly with people.  I'm not a victim, I just feel that everyone's at fault for the status quo.  I don't think I'm, like, free of any racist notions or thoughts.  I think I'm pretty racist.  What is most of this post but me saying, "Even if you try, they don't want to be treated the same.  So I give up, I'm a racist asshole.  Whatever."  Yep.

What I've read here only confirms to me the idiocy of the black-white dichotomy in America.  It's not about being black or white.  It's only a little about being a minority.  What it's really about is the documented human preference to consign other humans to "other" status based on some arbitrary criteria.  This can be religion.  It can be appearance: skin color, style of dress.  It can be ethnic lineage.  But most of all, it's about who's on top.  And that's not "white people".  That's rich people.

Think a rich black man doesn't have more power than me?  Those rich people aren't rich BECAUSE they're white.  Though, yes, it is harder for black people to get there.  After being freed from slavery, they had nothing, and then there was segregation.  They weren't offered the same opportunities.  It's hard to come from owning nothing to being a Bush in a few generations.  This was pointed out to me by a sympathetic teacher, who said, "There are a lot of young black people who are very angry.  But they don't know where to direct their anger."  She was, incidentally, black.  Not that it should matter when she says something that's true either way.

Yeah, there are still assholes.  There are always gonna be assholes.  There's plenty of assholes to go around spouting hate at Mexican immgrants and homosexuals too.  You don't need to expunge racism, you need to expunge the darker parts of the human soul, the part that feels superior when it degrades another person.  The part that needs to freaking *invent* reasons to exclude and dislike.  We all have this, though it certainly seems to be more prominant in certain individuals.  To a disgusting extent in some people (remember that "poem" Yasha posted).  Hell, if we were all blind, we'd be excluding people by the sound of their voice (although we do that anyway: based on accent in addition to language as others have mentioned).

I don't see humanity ever being free of hate.  We will never all be in this thing together.  I'm a pessimist.

Which is why the whole subject just gets me completely confused, frustrated, and ends up with me in despair.  Which is why I try not to think about big issues like this.  My tearful "Can't we all just get along?" isn't going to make a difference.


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#33 | Back to Top05-02-2007 09:46:10 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Stormcrow wrote:

Sorry to say but these tests are based on some rather questionable methodological choices.  I just took the one about President Bush relating to other presidents and although I happen to despise President Bush, linking Lincoln (linkin' Lincoln?) with the good words first sets up that association in working memory, so it's only natural that my responses would slow down when they're swapped.  Maybe if I take some more tests I'll have more respect for them, but I think the science is a little weak here. emot-frown

I posted it because it was interesting, not because it was useful. When's the last time you took an internet test seriously? emot-tongue


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#34 | Back to Top05-02-2007 10:14:28 PM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Yasha wrote:

Stormcrow wrote:

Sorry to say but these tests are based on some rather questionable methodological choices.  I just took the one about President Bush relating to other presidents and although I happen to despise President Bush, linking Lincoln (linkin' Lincoln?) with the good words first sets up that association in working memory, so it's only natural that my responses would slow down when they're swapped.  Maybe if I take some more tests I'll have more respect for them, but I think the science is a little weak here. emot-frown

I posted it because it was interesting, not because it was useful. When's the last time you took an internet test seriously? emot-tongue

Well, I'm pretty sure the ones that say I'm smart and funny are fair.  emot-biggrin

EDIT:  Ooh, I forgot to mention the ones that say I'm a good lay, those are spot-on!  poptartpoptartpoptart

Last edited by Stormcrow (05-02-2007 10:16:50 PM)


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#35 | Back to Top05-02-2007 10:29:03 PM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Life is more important than survival, and the Struggle is more important than victory.  You're absolutely right, Rhyaniwyn (that is a lovely name, though I misspelled it on the first three attempts.), even if all racism magically disappeared from the world this very instant, we'd just invent it from scratch.  It might take all of five seconds.  But just imagine what those five seconds would be like... yeah, I can't imagine it either.  emot-frown

I guess what really matters isn't whether somebody else was enslaved or whether it was their ancestors, what really matters is what you do.  Or since I'm the one writing this, what I do.  I think I'll go to sleep, but first, etc-loveetc-loveetc-love for you.  Thanks for participating.


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#36 | Back to Top05-02-2007 10:30:33 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

rhyaniwyn wrote:

<snip>

I'd like to applaud what you said here. I'm also white and I live in the southern USA, specifically where it is mostly black and white people and few other races. I'm not going to say that I suffered extreme racism and that I've been oppressed, because that would be silly. But I've still had "reverse-racism" happen to me, all the same. Racism is racism. Just because you're not being oppressed because you're still the majority and you have more "power", it doesn't mean it still isn't racist. It's less in comparison to minorities who are truly being treated as less than human and have their rights taken away, of course.

I'm also very shy and socially awkward, and I don't talk to many people. A lot of black people have apparently assumed that because I don't talk much when spoken to, it means I'm racist. I'm constantly fed up with most of the black people here, not because they're black, but because they feel that because they are black, they are different and can only associate with black people and can only act a certain way. I love people like my friend Ariss, who is black, but doesn't act like she has to "act" black. She just simply is. She just acts like herself.

I also think that people are too conscious about race. When you think about it simply, racism is ridiculous. All it is is skin pigment and genetics, and being of a certain race shouldn't make you any better than someone else. But it's not just that. People attach personalities and stereotypes to different races as well, so it's frustrating.

I love and hate where I live, but I mostly don't like it here. In comparison to what people I know who live in northern states say about where they live, and just experience with living here, I think it definitely seems like there is more racism in the south of the USA. I'm continuously shocked when I see such strong, obvious acts of racism and hatred here, even though by now I shouldn't be. The one and only reason why I want to stay in the south is because of the abundance of nature. That, and probably that I think there needs to be more people like me (not saying that I'm all that, but that I'm at least open-minded) so that the south won't be just full of bigoted idiots.

But, yes, I think that deep down we're all at least a little racist. It's especially unavoidable down here, where the gaps between races are so large. It's really sad.


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#37 | Back to Top05-04-2007 08:29:49 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

I will attempt to explain the issues of race and racism in Australia from what I have seen or read in the news, from our history and from personal observation as best as I can as I know how.

From what I remember from history lessons in school, during the first half of the 20th century, Australia was under the White Australia policy where they only welcomed English speaking white folk and the 'coloured' as they were know back then were not allowed to come here.  Any 'coloured' that were already in Australia (like the Chinese who stayed after the gold rush for example) were treated like 2nd class citizens and the Aborigines were concidered 3rd class animals who were doomed to die out due to some kind of Darwinian selection process.

That started to change after WWII when Australia realised they needed more workers to do things like the Snowy Mountains Hydro-Electric Scheme which is one of the most complex water and hydro-electric power schemes in the world, so they got rid of the White Australia policy and convinced people from various Europeon countries (largely Greek and Italian) to immigrate to Australia so they could work on schemes like that. 

From what I heard, many of the Greeks and Italians (and the others) suffered a great deal from mostly social racism for the next 20-30 years but by the 80s, mainstream Australia pretty much accepted them into their group (especially the 2nd generation +) partly in thanks to all the racial equality stuff thats been happening in the Western countries.

More recently, we have had a number of Sudanese immigrants as well as others from Asia (eastern and middle) and barring any fucktard bigots, I think that most multigenerational Australian have pretty much accepted them fairly well from what I have noticed.

As for the use of language, we use terms like Poms or Pommys for the British, Kiwis for the New Zealanders, Yanks for the Americans and Wogs (as some Greek and Italians call themselves in the same vein as some women who claim the term bitch as a form of pride) for the younger Greek or Italians who go the whole hog with their racial identity.

The unwritten rule for using the term Wog in Australia seems to be this, only other Greek/Italians or close friends of the same can call them wogs, you can use the word wog in a non-bigoted way but otherwise you limit the term as much as possible.  As for terms like Poms, Yanks or Kiwis, you can pretty much say it to their faces unless they tell you they find those terms offensive, only then do you not use it to apply to them.

I personally come from a long line of pommy bastards so the term doesn't worry me. school-devil

On the bad side, if you are an illegal immigrant, the Governments policy seems to be 'If we treat them badly enough when we round them up, maybe they will bug some other country instead of us' because when an illegal is detained, they get treated worse than rapists, murderers and peophiles (if the rumours about the detention centres are true), they even keep children and babies locked up in those places, you would almost think that we were a depot country by the way the Govenment treats them.

Also our Indigenous people are by far the worse off compared to the rest of the world's Indigenous people, they have a life expectancy 20+ years less than the rest of the Australian population, they are 11 times more likely to be locked up in jail and substance abuse is spirialing out of control, poverty and other issues put them at the bottom of the barrel so to speak.


There are other things I may have left out but too much of this deep thinking while typing shorts out my delicate widdle brain.emot-tongue
EDIT: Fixed a couple of spelling errors and a bit of grammar.

Last edited by Tamago (05-05-2007 03:57:30 AM)


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#38 | Back to Top05-05-2007 03:41:18 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Tamago wrote:

The unwritten rule for using the term Wog in Australia seems to be this, only other Greek/Italians or close friends of the same can call them wogs, you can use the word wog in a non-bigoted way but otherwise you limit the term as much as possible.  As for terms like Poms, Yanks or Kiwis, you can pretty much say it to their faces unless they tell you they find those terms offensive, only then do you not use it to applay to them.

Hee, to the best of my knowledge "Kiwi" has never been an offensive term! Wog, yes, and I know some British and American folk who don't like Pom or Yank, but I've never met a Kiwi who didn't like being called a Kiwi. Although I admit when people ask me what I am, I tend towards "New Zealander." I am a Kiwi, I call myself that at home, but overseas I always refer to the country name rather than the bird. Probably because in America, at least, kiwi is a fruit whereas we'd call it a kiwifruit or, if we were being real difficult that day, a Chinese gooseberry. emot-dance

We only take offense when you call us cheating bastards. That's for the rugby and/or cricket. ...which we lost miserably. GodDAMN you Australians and your mad cricket skillz! [sulks]


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#39 | Back to Top05-05-2007 04:02:24 AM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Clarice wrote:

Tamago wrote:

The unwritten rule for using the term Wog in Australia seems to be this, only other Greek/Italians or close friends of the same can call them wogs, you can use the word wog in a non-bigoted way but otherwise you limit the term as much as possible.  As for terms like Poms, Yanks or Kiwis, you can pretty much say it to their faces unless they tell you they find those terms offensive, only then do you not use it to applay to them.

Hee, to the best of my knowledge "Kiwi" has never been an offensive term! Wog, yes, and I know some British and American folk who don't like Pom or Yank, but I've never met a Kiwi who didn't like being called a Kiwi. Although I admit when people ask me what I am, I tend towards "New Zealander." I am a Kiwi, I call myself that at home, but overseas I always refer to the country name rather than the bird. Probably because in America, at least, kiwi is a fruit whereas we'd call it a kiwifruit or, if we were being real difficult that day, a Chinese gooseberry. emot-dance

We only take offense when you call us cheating bastards. That's for the rugby and/or cricket. ...which we lost miserably. GodDAMN you Australians and your mad cricket skillz! [sulks]

I also noticed that New Zealanders consider the term Kiwis the same way we call ourselves Aussies, just a popular slang term.  I never understood why Americans hate the term Yank so much (not withstanding the Southerners of cause), maybe because it sounds too much like etc-wankdude I'm guessing.


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#40 | Back to Top05-05-2007 05:11:36 AM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Tamago wrote:

I never understood why Americans hate the term Yank so much (not withstanding the Southerners of cause), maybe because it sounds too much like etc-wankdude I'm guessing.

It's entirely because Yank only, as far as we're concerned, accounts for half of us. And Yank is a derogatory term often paired with yapping about the confederate flag being HERITAGE NOT HATE LOL LOL oh god I fucking hate living in the South. emot-gonk Calling someone that isn't a Yankee is going to get a pole up their ass hearing it. I'm technically not a Yankee but I'd much rather be mistaken for one.

I don't think there's a term we will ever like or not get insulted by. We have no sense of humor about this crap.


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#41 | Back to Top05-05-2007 05:19:22 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Giovanna wrote:

I don't think there's a term we will ever like or not get insulted by. We have no sense of humor about this crap.

I've always avoided using it myself; I always figured I'd never know who liked it and who didn't, so I gave up. ^___^

What I find hilarious at home is the people who argue about being called Pakeha. It's very distinct from the word "Paki" (used in Britain as a derogatory term for people of Asian/Middle Eastern descent), and to be honest? It's not derogatory at all. It's a Maori word for someone who's not Maori ("Maori" actually means "normal," and was never used in this way until after the Europeans turned up in New Zealand). I happily call myself Pakeha, because it's what I am -- a non-Maori New Zealander. The rumour is, though, that it means "white dog/bastard" and all sorts, and I laugh. Because "Pakeha" is usually an option on official documents in New Zealand, and although our government does some damn odd things from time to time, they're not quite that daft. I get quite irritated when other European-descended New Zealanders tell me I'm pandering to the Maori and being insulted into the bargain when I call myself Pakeha. It's all so damn stupid. emot-mad


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#42 | Back to Top05-05-2007 06:51:42 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Clarice wrote:

Giovanna wrote:

I don't think there's a term we will ever like or not get insulted by. We have no sense of humor about this crap.

I've always avoided using it myself; I always figured I'd never know who liked it and who didn't, so I gave up. ^___^

What I find hilarious at home is the people who argue about being called Pakeha. It's very distinct from the word "Paki" (used in Britain as a derogatory term for people of Asian/Middle Eastern descent), and to be honest? It's not derogatory at all. It's a Maori word for someone who's not Maori ("Maori" actually means "normal," and was never used in this way until after the Europeans turned up in New Zealand). I happily call myself Pakeha, because it's what I am -- a non-Maori New Zealander. The rumour is, though, that it means "white dog/bastard" and all sorts, and I laugh. Because "Pakeha" is usually an option on official documents in New Zealand, and although our government does some damn odd things from time to time, they're not quite that daft. I get quite irritated when other European-descended New Zealanders tell me I'm pandering to the Maori and being insulted into the bargain when I call myself Pakeha. It's all so damn stupid. emot-mad

Yeah, I feel the same way about the "yank" thing.  As long as you're not talking about the baseball team. emot-mad

Wow, stars and bars...now that's an ugly piece of business right there.  I actually saw a guy driving a pickup with a...oh, I'd say at least twelve foot confederate flag flying from a pole mounted in the back...on July 4th!  I have never in my life desired to harm a motor vehicle that badly.  I don't know about further South, but we don't see that much up here in the Plains...thankfully.


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#43 | Back to Top05-05-2007 07:11:31 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Clarice wrote:

Pakeha.

If you're not insulted to call yourself that, it's not insulting. People are idiots. emot-rolleyes I don't care what people call me, you got an insulting term for Italian-Americans? Throw it my way. Why how observant, sir, to call me a Greaseball. My sebaceous glands are, in fact, quite active. I actually only get annoyed at that stuff when people apply it wrong. If you aren't familiar enough with what a guido is to know I'm not one, don't use the term. emot-mad

Stormcrow wrote:

Wow, stars and bars...now that's an ugly piece of business right there.  I actually saw a guy driving a pickup with a...oh, I'd say at least twelve foot confederate flag flying from a pole mounted in the back...on July 4th!  I have never in my life desired to harm a motor vehicle that badly.  I don't know about further South, but we don't see that much up here in the Plains...thankfully.

I work with a guy like that. emot-frown He's also gone to NASCAR races with the stars and bars painted on his chest. Any sort of irrational pride irritates me, though. I'm all for heritage. I'm Italian, so yes, I want to go to Italy and see my home country, and I do take a special interest in Italian history and culture. But I see people wearing Italian Pride shirts and crap like that, and they're serious, and...wow, what? How embarrassing. I think it gets ugly when people get the idea the accomplishments and deeds of their ancestors somehow imbue them with a superiority over others, and there's a lot of that with these sorts of names, at least in the US. Sounds like it's often so elsewhere, too.

I'm totally going to tell Mr.Stars'nBars that people in other countries call Americans, as a group, Yanks. He'll flip his lid, and then assume I'm talking exclusively about France, because he learned on Bill O'Reilly's show that France is BAAAAD.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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#44 | Back to Top05-05-2007 07:23:10 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Giovanna wrote:

I work with a guy like that. emot-frown He's also gone to NASCAR races with the stars and bars painted on his chest. Any sort of irrational pride irritates me, though. I'm all for heritage. I'm Italian, so yes, I want to go to Italy and see my home country, and I do take a special interest in Italian history and culture. But I see people wearing Italian Pride shirts and crap like that, and they're serious, and...wow, what? How embarrassing. I think it gets ugly when people get the idea the accomplishments and deeds of their ancestors somehow imbue them with a superiority over others, and there's a lot of that with these sorts of names, at least in the US. Sounds like it's often so elsewhere, too.

I'm totally going to tell Mr.Stars'nBars that people in other countries call Americans, as a group, Yanks. He'll flip his lid, and then assume I'm talking exclusively about France, because he learned on Bill O'Reilly's show that France is BAAAAD.

Italy is mostly very sunny...I advise you bring a parasol.  Ok, so I mostly think parasols are cute, but still, they can be functional too right? etc-love

I'm guessing this guy you work with is one of those folks that tried to turn french fries into freedom fries...emot-gonk


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#45 | Back to Top05-05-2007 08:17:05 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Stormcrow wrote:

I'm guessing this guy you work with is one of those folks that tried to turn french fries into freedom fries...emot-gonk

Ha, in New Zealand we once turned "french sticks" (i.e. baguettes) into "kiwi sticks" because they'd pissed us off. Admittedly, though, this was over the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior and the nuclear warhead testing in the Pacific, so maybe we had an excuse, I don't know. All I DO know is that I can go work in France for three months without a work permit because of the state-funded-terrorism-on-New-Zealand-soil thing, so...maybe when I'm done here I get to go pick grapes in Southern France...?

/facetious

EDIT: Oh, and before I forget:

Giovanna wrote:

If you're not insulted to call yourself that, it's not insulting. People are idiots. emot-rolleyes I don't care what people call me, you got an insulting term for Italian-Americans? Throw it my way. Why how observant, sir, to call me a Greaseball. My sebaceous glands are, in fact, quite active. I actually only get annoyed at that stuff when people apply it wrong. If you aren't familiar enough with what a guido is to know I'm not one, don't use the term. emot-mad

I always remember laughing my ass off at a comedian who was talking about what she got called around town, and how she got pissed off when someone called her a Chink. She turned around and shouted: "I'm a GOOK, buddy! GET IT RIGHT!" emot-keke

And Tamago, you might be able to tell me, as this is something I always meant to look up for myself and never quite got to. I know about the treatment of half-caste Aborigine children in Aussie (too much Sixty Minutes as a child), but someone once told me that Aborigines, back in the day, used to be hunted like actual animals, and that there was an actual bounty on their heads. Is this true? Because you know what we Kiwis are like, we're only too happy to spread rumours about you guys to our impressionable children...

Last edited by Clarice (05-05-2007 08:33:15 AM)


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#46 | Back to Top05-05-2007 09:18:22 AM

Asfalolh
Knight of Gates
From: Barcelona (Catalonia)
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 2005

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Giovanna wrote:
I'm totally going to tell Mr.Stars'nBars that people in other countries call Americans, as a group, Yanks

Well, that's absolutely true in Spain. Such an ignorant person like me never thought that there were actually some Americans that didn't think about them as "yanquis".

Giovanna wrote:
It's entirely because Yank only, as far as we're concerned, accounts for half of us.

I suck at History of America; do you mean there's still a difference feeling between North and South? (maybe for you this is so evident that it doesn't worth asking). I am way more familiar with how Europeans call each others: from Catalonia, our Spanish neighbours are "xarnegos", French people are "gavatxos", Deutchs (and also Americans, specially if they are tall and blonde) are "guiris", Pakistanis are "paquis", Muslims and Arabians are "moros"... Most of them are only insults if are received like that, or between people that really don't know each other.


On the main subject of the thread:
As usual, you are only able to practice some kind or level of racism with your closest (geographically) neighbours / ethnicities. Racism appears with ignorance and diminishes with learning, but it requires time and will. The low percent of black people in Spain makes racism against them rare; the higher percent of non-Black Muslims (mostly from North Africa) produces a high latent racism against them.

The most important problem in Catalonia and in Spain is, by the moment, the relations between Castilians (located mostly in the geographic center of the Iberian Peninsule) and the inhabitants of the periphery: Catalans (North-East), Basques (North), Galicians (North-West). There is a real tenseness between all us, and politicians are not solving it at all. In short, you know you are in trouble when being called a Catalan (or a polaco) is an insult in Madrid, and being called a "madrileño" is another one in some parts of Catalonia.

The situation between Catalans and Castilians resembles strongly with that described by rhyaniwyn, which by the way makes all this thread absolutly worth-reading. etc-love

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#47 | Back to Top05-05-2007 09:44:01 AM

Romanticide
Cow Bellhop
From: Mazatlan
Registered: 10-18-2006
Posts: 447

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Giovanna wrote:

I'm totally going to tell Mr.Stars'nBars that people in other countries call Americans, as a group, Yanks. He'll flip his lid, and then assume I'm talking exclusively about France, because he learned on Bill O'Reilly's show that France is BAAAAD.

Over here you are mostly refered as "Gringos" it can be pejorative or not but most of the time not... I'm sure the reason the term lasts as a popular one has to be with the refusal of calling you Americans... but most people get over it calling you "Estadounidenses" (UnitedStatians? emot-confused) which is a not offensive term at all.


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#48 | Back to Top05-05-2007 10:02:39 AM

Imaginary Bad Bug
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From: Connecticut, USA
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2168
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Asfalolh wrote:

I suck at History of America; do you mean there's still a difference feeling between North and South? (maybe for you this is so evident that it doesn't worth asking).

A little late to this thread, but as someone from the northeast US, yes.. there is definitely a difference perceived between "Northerners" and "Southerners" (the latter term is usually applied to those from the southeast, though... the original 'south' -- living west of the Mississippi River at any latitude pretty much makes you a 'westerner').  It varies from person to person, but as Gio and others have said, there are those who still pledge their loyalty to the Confederate flag and still believe that Abraham Lincoln ending the Civil War (or more accurately, the North winning) was the worst thing to happen to this country.

I have no problem with Southerners myself, just those ignorant ones who still wish this country was run the way it was 150 years ago before the end of the Civil War. emot-mad

So yeah, there is a culture difference, but in my experience it's variable depending on each person's individual case, on both sides.  I've never been to the south (Orlando twice, 12 years apart), but that hardly counts because Disney World is not representative of 'The South'. emot-tongue

Where I work, I see customers from the south every once in a while, and most of them seem very easygoing and friendly to me.

Last edited by Imaginary Bad Bug (05-05-2007 10:06:38 AM)


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#49 | Back to Top05-05-2007 10:50:45 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Clarice wrote:

And Tamago, you might be able to tell me, as this is something I always meant to look up for myself and never quite got to. I know about the treatment of half-caste Aborigine children in Aussie (too much Sixty Minutes as a child), but someone once told me that Aborigines, back in the day, used to be hunted like actual animals, and that there was an actual bounty on their heads. Is this true? Because you know what we Kiwis are like, we're only too happy to spread rumours about you guys to our impressionable children...

I'm not 100% sure if that was something the govenment santioned or not, but I heard that some farmers up north paid people to deal with their 'pest' problem.

But I do know about the 'Stolen Generation' a term used to describe the Aboriginal children, usually of mixed descent, who were taken away from their families by government agencies and church missions between 1900 and 1969.  They claimed it was for their own good but these days, the practice is recognized as a human rights violation.


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#50 | Back to Top05-05-2007 11:15:42 PM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Imaginary Bad Bug wrote:

So yeah, there is a culture difference, but in my experience it's variable depending on each person's individual case, on both sides.  I've never been to the south (Orlando twice, 12 years apart), but that hardly counts because Disney World is not representative of 'The South'. emot-tongue

Florida as a whole isn't exactly representative of the South. One of my teachers actually mentioned once that there was an agreement between the North and the South during the Civil War that Florida would be pretty much left alone, because it was too hot, muggy, swampy and dangerous for a battlefield. Hah!  But I think it's that there's more Spanish influence then French or English. From what I recall of reading about Spanish courts and populace of the time, they didn't seem to go in for crazy decadence, luxury and ridicuous partying. emot-frown Even the mistresses weren't that good. Darn Catholicism.

Where I work, I see customers from the south every once in a while, and most of them seem very easygoing and friendly to me.

I'm wholly willing to bet that you're getting the Genteel South, also known as the citydwellers. Cities in the South, like Atlanta and Savanah really are all that and a bag of chips. Atmosphere, parties, culture, the whole nine yards. My 'aunt' (a super close family friend) was a "Georgia Peach" as she called herself, and she was the definition of a Gracious Southern Lady. Never raised her voice, never said a mean or nasty thing, believed in good manners, but she loved to party and could be counted on for a roaring good time -but, she had/has some seriously racist tendencies. Hey, she grew up in a time period where there wasn't a whole lot of integration. Interestingly though, it was considered bad manners to remark on blacks, or segragation -that whole Bad Things Don't Exist If We Don't See Them theory. It's sort of like... I'm trying to think how to describe this, it's wierd... Okay, the whole black community as a second class mentality? That was it, exactly. You never explicitly reminded someone that they were lesser then you, but you never let them forget it either, and most importantly, you never forgot it.


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