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#1 | Back to Top04-24-2007 02:41:34 PM

SexingTouga24/7/365
is on a BOAT!
Registered: 12-10-2006
Posts: 2267

International Insights on race and racism....

This started in the The IFD Squick Factor thread and i want to hear from around the world on this topic .... so educate :dance:

Thanks Frosty :)

Frosty
QUESTION ABOUT RACISM, FOR YASHA, AND OR ANYONE ELSE FROM OUTSIDE THE U.S:

I noticed that the big thing that pissed off, made upset (which is synonym for squick right?) Yasha, was racism...and I wondered...is the black & white issue, that is so predominate here in the Southern United States confined to these areas? Like, in Canada, I am sure slight prejudice do exists, they do everywhere, but is there anything very rampant, like that horrible KKK/Neo-Nazi song posted, in Canada?

I asked my Korean relative, about what sort of prejudice goes on in Korea, and she said the big prejudice there was Mixed Children. Like, American soldiers going there, screwing a girl, and leaving her pregnant, that child would grow up totally ostracized from his peer group. Also, she said the older folks tend to frown on relationships that aren't between two Koreans. The reason she was given the blessing to marry my cousin, a white American Marine was because a fortune teller told her mother it would be in the daughter's future to live overseas. Also, my relative told me that in Asian countries the handicapped people are looked upon with scorn and hidden away as burdens, so she found it uplifting and kind to see how America makes such a fuss over our handicapped citizens. What else? Hmm... she said the majority of Japanese people love Americans (English speakers), as she had just returned from a 6 month stay in Tokyo learning the language. She told me her Korean friends would ask her to speak English in the Japanese restaurants, because when they just thought of them as other Asians, they didn't get any respect, but the moment my relative used English to speak, the Japanese became very polite and accommodating.

Those are the things I have heard about the prejudice around the world. I am interested to know about what goes on in other places, like Canada, or other countries with board members signed up, like Australia and Estonia, what do you guys deal with in your areas of the world?

And, I hope we can make a difference, in our own personal lives to contain the horrid beast that is racism!

Lady Nilamarthiel responding to Frosty:

I noticed that the big thing that pissed off, made upset (which is synonym for squick right?) Yasha, was racism...and I wondered...is the black & white issue, that is so predominate here in the Southern United States confined to these areas? Like, in Canada, I am sure slight prejudice do exists, they do everywhere, but is there anything very rampant, like that horrible KKK/Neo-Nazi song posted, in Canada?

I don't know about Canada, but there's a city in Nothern Michigan (Caddilac) that is chock-full of neo-nazis and white supremicists. (Then again, Michigan is pretty much Canada anyway.) They have big picnics in the park every spring/summer with the swastica flag high and little bite-sized nazis running around and playing in sandboxes. I feel sorry for the little kids growing up in households like that and not knowing any better.

Last edited by SexingTouga24/7/365 (04-24-2007 02:44:51 PM)


"If all the world is a stage and all the people players"...then I demand a less shitty part or the ability to get off of the stage. Slowly my sanity slides, slipping, swirling, spiraling...Save Me I need Sleep...Shattering Soon. school-devil "RukaxTouga equals the Fourth of July" MY patriotic celebration...FUCK ME TOUGA AND RUKA NOW!! etc-wankgirl etc-wankdude

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#2 | Back to Top04-24-2007 03:26:52 PM

Personal_IceQueen
Covert Diarist
Registered: 11-27-2006
Posts: 822
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

I think racism hmmm...what can I say about it? Logically it makes no sense. And I think, people deep down know this, race does not make you any smarter,faster,better looking, nor does it give you any upper hand in the works of the universe. People who have these prejudices tend to have insecurity with themselves, and in human nature, they project it onto other people. Also people fear what they can not understand, and racism is derivative of fear. There is a resurgence of hate groups now, and it does not shock me, we live in scary, and fearful times. People are using religion and God's name to do horrible,horrible things to others. I've never understood racism, how a skin tone or a ethnicity can make, can lead someone to thinking that they are better than this person or that this person needs to be hated, for something they have no control over. It makes me sick when I think about the crimes committed over the years, and the continuation of nasty stereotypes and racist ideologies (Don Imus I'm talking to you).

But, we can combat racism with making sure that the generations after us, learn from history and learn what not to do. If we pass onto children, that race means diddly squat, perhaps we have a chance. But so much of it has a lot to do with personal introspection.

sorry getting preachy there.


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#3 | Back to Top04-24-2007 03:53:23 PM

Alithea
Dark Whisperer
From: Westminster, CO
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 1152
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

I dunno... I know I don't exactly live in the magical land of everyone gets along but in my neck of California the population is very diverse. I think I can safely say we have a resteraunt for nearly everything in the bay area.

I experienced large culture shock when I had a lay over in a Georgia airport and something felt amiss...and what was mising was vast diversity. I mean, there were white people and black people and that was it. It was kinda strange to me.

Then I was reading about some school in the south the other day that just had a fully racially intergrated prom and I was like O_O You have got to be kidding me, right? That was still going on? What the hell? (It had something to do with the school not sponsering the prom so the white students and black students would seperately raise money and hold seperate proms but still it's amzingly absurd to me what lingers.)

Dispite the diveristy of major areas of California I do know that there is a population of KKK and Neo nazis in the state. They just don't make much noise around these parts because they'd get their asses kicked.

It's all weird to me but then I'm half Mexican American and half white (Irish/English).

I do know that some friends of mine went to Paris for vacation and were treated much better when they spoke Spanish and not English.


"The only reason to write is to write for love. Write for passion. If you have the privilege of being able to write, then don't do it for any other reason." - Stephen Sondheim

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#4 | Back to Top04-24-2007 04:14:12 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Racism in New Zealand isn't always obvious; it depends on where you live and to some degree how you live (although New Zealand technically doesn't have a class system, most of us come from the UK and/or Europe, and although most of our ancestors would have likely been working class it was a system pretty bloody well ingrained in all levels of society; personally I noticed it most in Christchurch, which was a) owned by Oxford University and b) described as "more English than England"). There are two major ethnic groupings in New Zealand -- Maori, who are not "pure-blooded" by any stretch of the imagination any longer (hence why people whiter than I am -- and on a good day I look like Alucard's new best friend -- can claim benefits from the government based solely on tenuous links to Maori ancestry), and Pakeha. Pakeha is a Maori term generally applied to Caucasians of European descent (and yes, I am Pakeha), but it actually means anyone not Maori. There has always been tension between Maori and pakeha, from the first meeting at sea between Abel Tasman and a group of Maori (resulting in some fatalities due to a complete clash of cultures) to now, where our national "independence" day is closer to "National Protest Day" in which it's not a good day unless someone's made the prime minister cry. I won't go into intense detail -- it's a short amount of history, about a hundred and fifty years worth, but I am no historian AND I never really grasped the finer details at school anyway -- but basically? England came up with the Treaty of Waitangi to a) protect the "natives" and b) stop the French annexing Banks Peninsula, and then proceeded to mistranslate the Maori version and completely bollocks up all their obligations therein. Because of this there is always a degree of tension that could be called "racism" between Maori and Pakeha, and as a pakeha with no known iwi or waka connections AND being from the south of the south island (meaning a) I lived in an area mostly devoid of Maori connections because it was never traditionally a permanent home of any Maori tribes because it's bloody freezing most of the time and b) my culture is mostly Celtic-derived because the Scots were the only folk crazy enough to colonise there) I admit I have very little understanding of things like Ngai Tahu. Although I have cried my eyes out at Te Papa because that is where they keep a copy of the Treaty in question, and as a representation of the original that has been burnt, ripped, torn, water-damaged and allowed to grow mold...you can see why people get upset. But then, given we are all New Zealanders and we all love the country as much as one another, we pakeha don't like to be told we don't have the capability to feel the land and its life the way the Maori do. We might not believe in taniwha, exactly, but I lived in New Zealand from birth until early last year, and my heart? Is embedded in that country. I am a New Zealander. We all are. I hate the way we all fight over "ownership" of the country because if you live and love Aotearoa then you are New Zealand. That's all there is to it.

It's not just the traditional Maori/Pakeha divide, though. We have a lot of Asian immigration -- and by "Asian" a New Zealander means Thai, Chinese, Japanese, Malaysian and Korean immigrants; we get very confused by the British use of the same term, I can assure you -- and we do have in certain areas -- say, the North Island in general and Christchurch in the South -- a lot of resentment over it. Why? Probably because of the perceived "they don't speak our language" and "they're stealing all our jobs" bullshit (which isn't unusual, as in the UK we're having a lot of that...and I'm probably part of it, being a foreigner myself, but I get away with it because a) I speak English natively and b) Australians and Kiwis are trusted employees, apparently). The Pacific Islanders also make up a huge proportion of the population of Auckland and the Bay of Plenty/Islands, and their tendency to be in the lower socio-economic bracket (thereby receiving state benefits) can cause those of us with regular jobs and whatnot to feel resentment on the "we work to support people who weren't even born here" front. (Although Australians feel that way about us when we go over there to leech off their dole, ha ha ha...emot-tongue) So...er, yeah. It's an interesting topic, because I tend to find people in England assume New Zealand is a lovely country with no racial tension at all. Which makes me laugh. I've been sheltered from a lot of it -- like I said, isolated middle-class pakeha in a white-dominated province with a strong Anglo-Celtic background -- but it's very there. And it always makes me angry. I've actually decided to learn Maori when I go home, because although my father (whom I love, but always pisses me off with his comments about how the Maori are trying to "steal" back land/resources from the government when we DID fuck them over originally) says it's pointless, I don't think it is. It's a beautiful language, it's officially one of the country's languages, and it is as much a part of my heritage as bagpipes and Guinness and Cockney rhyming slang. I can sing in Maori, but I have no idea what I am saying. And this makes me cry, because when I stand in the middle of nowhere in my home country I know that Maori is as much the language of that land as is my own.

Racism pisses me off. But I know that those little puppets at Avenue Q are right, because even when we try so hard not to be, we're all a little bit racist (at the very least). The strength and sensibility comes in recognising it, and working through it. I just hope like hell that when I go back home, after seeing what life is like in England for various minoities, that I can recognise and work against it at home a whole lot better than I ever have before.


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

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#5 | Back to Top04-24-2007 06:39:21 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Frosty wrote:

QUESTION ABOUT RACISM, FOR YASHA, AND OR ANYONE ELSE FROM OUTSIDE THE U.S:

I noticed that the big thing that pissed off, made upset (which is synonym for squick right?) Yasha, was racism...and I wondered...is the black & white issue, that is so predominate here in the Southern United States confined to these areas? Like, in Canada, I am sure slight prejudice do exists, they do everywhere, but is there anything very rampant, like that horrible KKK/Neo-Nazi song posted, in Canada?

To be honest, I don't think I'm the best person to ask about this. I do know a little, but it's hearsay; I don't think I've ever witnessed anything on a massive scale, and the few times I've run into overt racism have always seemed like isolated incidents to me. I know that Native Americans are not well thought of here, because they're apparently all drunks. This doesn't seem to fit the criteria you're looking for. I've never seen it get past racist jokes, and I've heard my share of racist and ethnic jokes, including stuff about my own heritage, so that's not really a good thing to judge by. I'm really oblivious to this sort of thing, though. Unless it's overt, I guess I put it down to someone having a bad day or being snarly because they're just a mean person or something like that. I would assume that there's racial tension here because it seems like we should have some, but to tell the truth, I'm just not sure.

I'll see if I can get J to answer, he probably knows more about this sort of thing than I do. I have strong opinions on the subject, but that's more because the idea is so shocking and sickening to me than any other reason.



Fake edit: Also I just ate an asian candy that tasted like sugar and grass, and then had a salty plum center. Wow! My mouth feels happy all over and I need to advertise that fact. emot-keke


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#6 | Back to Top04-24-2007 09:54:15 PM

Romanticide
Cow Bellhop
From: Mazatlan
Registered: 10-18-2006
Posts: 447

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Home at last emot-dance Ok people get a comfy chair because this is going to be a large post... and bring some poptarts poptart

México or United States of Mexico/United Mexican States* is an "independent" country since 1821. Before it was Spain Colony called New Spain and before it was a mess of indigen tribes... that hated each other since then... so definitely nothing good could come out of it emot-gonk

Spanish Conquistadors only came to make things worse as they institutionalized racism:

*when the Spanishmen had sons in the new spain they were not considered as Spanishmen but “criollos” and even if their parents were Spanish coming from Spain they were still lesser important citizens as they didn’t had the same privileges as Spanishmen coming from the Iberic Peninsula.
Indians or Indigenas: the largest population group at first that went decreasing in recent times. This classification include Aztecs/Mexicas, mayas, purepechas, mixtecas, tlaxcaltecas, zapotecas, chichimecas and a very big etc** but for the Spanish Conquistadors all were the fucking so they treated almost the same. Making as big (and stupid) mistakes of sending Christianized Indians to other tribes so as they were all Indians would help Christianize the others… big mistake… some of these tribes actually hate each other with passion and just killed the now catholic newcomers. Almost all hated the Aztecs though as they were the most powerful ferocious and asked for big taxes just because they could. Ironic enough New Spain would be formally and informally baptized as México so I can just imagine cringe their face in horror at the news XD
*Sons and daughters of a Spanish or “criollo” and a indigen person were classified as “Mestizos” this ones had less privileges than ”Criollos” and were subdivided according how many Spanish and Indian grandfathers had. A “mestizo” with 3 spanish grandparents and one indigen was called a “Castizo” and was a the top of the scale. If your Spanish family was very rich, and loved you very much or just didn’t want anyone to know one of they like to screw indigen persons bribery’s and negotiations could be done and the “Mestizo” member of the family would be considered “Criollo” This of course meant that a significant quantity of money would be given to the king, and to the church so they change the baptismal accounts.
*Slaves were imported from Africa and they definitely had the short end of the stick as the indigens and mestizos were at least… “free” and protected by the crown. A African person was taken to the new Spain to be abused… many of those men ended having children with “mestizas” or “indias” probably so their offspring with enough time would be able to “cheat” the social system and pass as indigens or “mestizos” Those children were considered “Mulatos” “Zambos” “Sacalaguas” among other names. This process seemed to continue after independence even if slavery was eliminated and is probably the reason a “black community” doesn’t exist over here is that most it was assimilated into the rest of the population. Some

The entire fucking race or social issues derive from them emot-gonk even if slavery was eliminated right after independence social differences were made not exactly by race but by socio-economical condition. Rich Criollos automatically thought they were better as everybody else and tried to be the ruling group, as they were proud of being of Spanish blood they only married within themselves, or with rich people from Spain… if they had nobility titles even better* After they decided to marry foreigners… rich ones of course and new rich. To this day there are families that pride into their purity of white blood having money or not…
Indigens or Indians tribes were mostly ignored or abused by rich landowners so they decided to isolate themselves to protect themselves, sometimes are described as “Fatalist” as some of this tribe way of thinking is like this “We were here before them, and will be here when they all would be gone” (referring to everybody else)
Mestizos ended becoming the majority of the population, government tried to make a unified country by making all people think as  themselves as “Mexicans” and not as mestizos/criollos/indigens/mullatos/whatever. This method worked at mostly except for some Criollo families who liked to think of themselves as Europeans or some indigen tribes that as they don’t see why they should do that as this country hasn’t done anything for them.
Of course this philosophy to work needed the incursion of  “The other” as the enemy, “The other” being the spanishmen****, or the North-Americans*****, “The conservatorism”****** or whatever people that were conveniently available.

Also… I almost forgot… depending of the place you go you can find places that don’t like “prietos” (dark skin), places that don’t like black people+  and l People who hate Asians++.

So at the end we have this big chain of everybody hating everybody else, the poor hating the rich, the rich despising the poor, people that would never date “prietos”,anarcho-nationalists, mochos (catholic retards), etc and etc… Oh such a beautiful country we are emot-gonk

*I'm no fucking kiding that is our oficial name.... curse you founders for your lack of originality!!! :gonk
**Sorry too much different groups here… would take me all night to count them all emot-gonk
***Even when government decided to eliminate all the nobility titles over here this people demanded to still be refered as count/baron/marquis/etc
****Which has no sense now as the current population in spain is guilty of what they ancestors or fellow spanishmen ancestors did.
***** Sorry about that emot-gonk… is just that you are the most powerful country near and your government also has many blame for that… emot-gonk
******They wanted to make an absolute monarchy here ruled by an European prince… and failed miserably so obviously everything wrong in the country would be their fault XD
+ Not at the point of HATE, HATE, KILL, KILL but they just won’t be able not to notice that person…
++ mostly Chinese, more a psychological hate as Chinese men were used to give the corporal punishment into big ranch and also Indian couples were separated and the wife given to the Chinese men as a wife…

Illegal immigrants when detected, and deported, I have some busses going to the north of the republic(most specific to the USA) are raided by military and people at asked for their id… if they don’t have it with them they are asked to sing the Mexican Anthem and if they are unable to they are deported to Guatemala or Belize… the funny thing is that many Mexicans are deported by accident by that method as they just don’t know how the fucking song goes… which torns me into the decision of laughing of crying emot-gonk

Alithea wrote:

I do know that some friends of mine went to Paris for vacation and were treated much better when they spoke Spanish and not English.

That is actually a truth... personally I tried French first... when they saw my French was so sucky then started to talk to me on English and even Spanish but me trying at least to speak in French made them more accesible.

Alithea wrote:

I do know that some friends of mine went to Paris for vacation and were treated much better when they spoke Spanish and not English.

That is actually a truth... personally I tried French first... when they saw my French was so sucky then started to talk to me on English and even Spanish but me trying at least to speak in French made them more accesible.

Last edited by Romanticide (04-24-2007 09:55:10 PM)


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#7 | Back to Top04-24-2007 10:22:15 PM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
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Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Racism.  A tragic fact of human relations.  I know of no group that is immune.  Even people that have likely never met a member of the detested other group.  A friend of mine spent some time in Krasnoyarsk, which is in Siberia.  People there apparently really hated black people.

A good, close friend of mine is, tragically, racist.  It's something that he struggles with sometimes, but sadly, he usually doesn't seem troubled by it.

On a related note, as far as I know, it is impossible to determine ethnicity accurately based on DNA, without comparison to a "base case",  which of course doesn't exist.  Race is a myth.


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#8 | Back to Top04-25-2007 10:28:04 PM

_ J _
Manly and Buxom = Manxome
From: Edmonton
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 318

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Racism in Canada is a difficult subject to address.  There is a serious dichotomy in how people view racism and in how it is defined.  There are several examples from my own life that I will use to illustrate this. 

1.  I am part native, but it is a very, very small part.  I attempted to gain my status card when I learned this, and tried to verify among my own relatives/ancestors, just how native are we.  In my case, it is not much.  My great grandfather was half Cree.  My great grandmother was a blinding racist, but never seemed to mind that her husband was part native.  I found out that she was racist over several minute occurences that I won't go into to deep of detail over.  The worst part of Meme's racism is that is was so casual, and so easy for her.  She had no trouble equating people to the most ridiculous of stereotypes based solely on last names or skin colour.  It wasn't just natives, or blacks, or asians, it was also polish, ukrainians, and to a lesser extent anybody that wasn't french and catholic.  Even other catholics got the short end from her.  In retrospect, what was even worse was that my great grandfather never embraced his heritage, or even really acknowledged it.  He grew up in a time when you had to live on a reservation to hold your status card, which basically meant you were taken care of, but had no room  to grow and no chance to live on your own terms.  He buried his "shame" in a french name and what I would consider to be willful blindness.  The result of these actions is a deep seeded guilt and shame complex in the few people in my family that know about Pepe's real heritage, because we cannot share it with the family as a whole, even two decades after Pepe's death, and a decade after Meme's death.  This resulted in several embarrassing days and the Bureau of Indian affairs here in Edmonton, while I was trying to determine whether or not I had any right to the treaty cheques, tax breaks and free college education that treaty status would entitle me to. 

2.  I grew up in a whitebread small town on the plains, in a fairly redneck part of the country.  There were no asians, one black kid and a bare handful of middle eastern families that I knew of.  I also went to a catholic school, which was predominatley populated by other white catholic children.  Race relations were so much a non-issue (due to lack of exposure) that I literally thought for quite a while that I would never ever meet an asian woman because I didn't think they left China, or Japan, or whatever country the men came from.  Even the Chinese restuarant in town had a mostly white staff, managed grumpily by a very tired chinese man, whose name coincidentally, was Man.  The whole point of this little aside is that every time anybody who wasn't white came to our school, or I ran into uptown got all kinds of ridiculous attention.  It wasn't to bad for me, because my mom had managed to impress upon me that we are all equals, no matter what anyone says.  My classmates were another story.  The black boy that came to our school for one year was so much the centre of attention, all the time, that his parents actually pulled him out of school and put him into the public school system.  The same thing happened with the first "brown" kid that came to our school.  I use the term "brown" because I never actually found out where he was from.  He had no accent, had grown up in Canada all of his life, but when he came to Leduc from Toronto, his life became a goldfish bowl.  He never had any real privacy at school.  Everyone was up in his grill, so to speak, from the start of the day till hometime.  He also left to go to the public school system, but he lasted two full years.  I don't think anybody I went to school with would really think negatively of the way these two people were treated, but nobody else ever got that kind of attention, ever.  (repetition for emphasis)

3.  When I finally managed to go to a "real" school, I was in college.  I was attending night classes at a community college in Edmonton.  The vast majority of students in my classes were women and non-white immigrants.  I had never been so deeply exposed to that many different skin colours, cultures, languages and attitudes in my entire life.  After a couple of days of culture shock, not just from the other students, but also because I was a freshman, I adapted and really began to enjoy it.  I was amazed at how easily we all got along, until this one night, somebody actually used the word nigger towards one of my friends.  My friend, whose name is Oriel, was big, black as night, and beautiful.  The fool who called him a nigger was a skinny white, eminem wannabe that was at first trying to be friends with Oriel, but then trying to get some kind of reaction out of him after Oriel had politely told the kid to get lost.  It is hard to put into text how Oriel took it.  He simply got larger, not physically of course, but spiritually, somehow.  His presence seemed to fill the entire room, all at once, and it was if everything stopped and held its breath.  Very calmly, and with almost inhuman patience, Oriel asked this kid "What was it you just called me?"   The kid seemed to wilt, and just said "forget about it" (if i could make the text small i would, because it was barely a whisper)  Oriel let it drop, but I was stunned that somebody could be so crass and ignorant. 

The whole point of this ramble is that Racism in Canada is a definite reality, but usually we (as a whole) seem to be a little more tolerant of each other up here.  At least in my experience. 

I have heard all kinds of other things, from other people, and from other places here in Canada.  There is racial violence, and there are issues that need to be dealt with.   Most of the gangs in Edmonton are racially based, native gangs, and Asian gangs.  There are constant jokes about the Lebanese Mafia.  I think it is a shame that people can still be so dumb about this, but I have the advantage of living in a place that hasn't had the strife that some places have had, especially in the last 50 years. 

I hope you found this informative, although I think I may have more to say later.


I will always be here to listen, the question is, whether or not you can hear...

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#9 | Back to Top04-25-2007 11:59:50 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

The thing that really gets me about racism is that so many people, when they read or hear the word, automatically think of white people treating members of other ethnic groups badly because of that. I work in a restaurant that employs almost seventy people. Only three of us are white, and none of us are management or even shift supervisors. We really don't have the capacity to discriminate against anyone. But if the Mexican general manager treats me badly because I'm white, that's racist too. Except then, nobody will give a shit.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#10 | Back to Top04-26-2007 12:08:29 AM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

I love double standards! When my high school formed a Umajo club (or however it was spelled) I started a campaign to have a Caucasian Historical Society, to get together and discusss, like, European history. My grounds were that we had a Japanese Club, an Asian Society, the latino club, whose name I forgot (and, despite my being Italian, didn't consider me latin), and now Umajo, which is African. emot-rolleyes I got shot down because of "how it would seem", but still, it was fun to try.

I also ran press on our schools Gay/Straight Alliance despite the principal telling me it was pretty much forbidden. We were allowed to write the article, but couldn't state the name of the club, or it's charter or anything. emot-rolleyes Yeah, what's the point in the article? So I gave him the censored one, and he approved it, and I published my original. That little stunt helped ban me from newspaper for the rest of my high school career. But, really, I was okay with that.


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

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#11 | Back to Top04-26-2007 06:44:48 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

I recently had the pleasure of taking a class about diversity in schools.  It was the sort of class that could have been totally ridiculous, but fortunately, we had a truly beautiful human being teaching it, and she was able to preserve the dignity of the subject matter.  She also brought in great guest lecturers.  One of them was a preacher who had grown up in Mississippi (it may have been Alabama) in a very racist white family, but had dedicated his life to advancing the black community.  A very intersting man who told us all very seriously that racism directed toward white people was impossible in this country because white people had all the power.  I asked him about Louis Farrakhan (I'm a Jew), and he got upset, claiming that the man had been misrepresented.  Well, I don't want to add fuel to that fire, so I recommend you research Farrakhan on your own.  I thought later to ask about Zimbabwe, where white people are on the bottom now, but I haven't had the chance.  Please don't get me wrong here, the majority of white people who complain about "reverse racism" don't have any idea what they're talking about, but the double standard is harmful to honest and respectful race relations.  Like in morosemocha's example.  The usual response from people asked about why we can't celebrate European culture will say that we already do that all the time, and they're not exactly wrong, but they're not exactly right either.

Actually, while we're on the subject, I have a confession to make.  I have in my life, made a couple of jokes I shouldn't have.  Not for a long time, but I kind of came by racial sensitivity the hard way.  I certainly meant no harm, and at first, I tried to justify myself by telling myself that that mattered.  I am even sorrier to say that I had to learn that lesson twice, though if I remember correctly, both incidents happened in the same weekend.  This was back in high school, so I'm a little fuzzy about some of the details, but I was set down pretty harshly both times, and rightly so.  I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make here, except that racism can be found in unlikely places, including in yourself.  We all need to be sensitive.

Last edited by Stormcrow (04-26-2007 06:45:23 AM)


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#12 | Back to Top04-26-2007 09:08:20 AM

Rushita
Rose Bride
Registered: 01-01-2007
Posts: 100
Website

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

I have to admit I haven't read everything everyone said above.  There is a lot of text up there, but I have read what my fellow Canadians wrote.  It is interesting to see what is happening to other parts of the country.  I live in Toronto, probably a city with most people from different ethic groups.  I say in general, we are doing pretty good.  I don't know how other people feel, but when I go out and see people in different skin colours, speaking different languages, and dressing up in different clothings that fits their cultures, it just seems a natural thing.  White people is just one of the many type of people here, surely not a majority.  Most people are quite open-minded and we pretty much live in harmony.  However, racism do exist overhere occasionally.  I'm Chinese myself, and I work in a retail pharmacy.  None of my whole pharmacy team is white (except the boss), and once a couple of years we would see some rednecks making some unfriendly racial comments.  The most ironical one actually came from not a white woman, but a black woman.  Most of the time we won't make a big deal out of it because, unfortunately, we are in customer service.  However, if I am on shift and see customers go way out of board and giving us crap, I would certainly give them hell, because racism towards myself and my staff is one thing I would definitely not tolerate.  I personally do not use the word "immigrants" on this issue, because I firmly believe that unless you are a native, we are all immigrants.  I think all white people here in Canada should realize they don't have more of a right then other people and they are not more "homey" here in Canada than others just because their ancestors immigrated to Canada a couple of hundred years earlier than the ancestors of people from other ethic groups do.  And I also like to point out, if you look into the history of North America, people now realize that Christopher Columbus wasn't the first outside people set foot on the "new continent".  They have reasons to believe that Chinese were probably here in North America before Columbus was.

All in all, I personally think Canada is probably the most multi-cultural country in the the world with the most tolerant people and the least racism.

And another thing I'd like to mention is, most chinese (and maybe people from other countries too) when we come to Canada, have learned to be aggressive or assertive and being up-front to speak for ourselves.  We Chinese are usually quite reserved, forgiving, easy-going, and don't want to make a small problem big.  However, a lot of us realize when we are here in Canada, we have to be more aggressive, defensive, and speak out loud for ourselves, otherwise other people will ignore us, push us around, or simply not take our concern seriously.  It's a common saying that we come to Canada and we first learn to complain.  I don't know if it is just a different in social norm, or if it has anything to do with racism, but some times it seems like if you want to be treated fairly, you need to be aggressive (or at least assertive).  I certainly don't think it is a good social norm emot-rolleyes

Last edited by Rushita (04-26-2007 09:11:58 AM)


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#13 | Back to Top04-27-2007 09:21:22 AM

SexingTouga24/7/365
is on a BOAT!
Registered: 12-10-2006
Posts: 2267

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Thanks for responding and huzza for free school-eng101 on things it has been interesting please feel free to write more and poptart poptart for all emot-dance


"If all the world is a stage and all the people players"...then I demand a less shitty part or the ability to get off of the stage. Slowly my sanity slides, slipping, swirling, spiraling...Save Me I need Sleep...Shattering Soon. school-devil "RukaxTouga equals the Fourth of July" MY patriotic celebration...FUCK ME TOUGA AND RUKA NOW!! etc-wankgirl etc-wankdude

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#14 | Back to Top04-27-2007 12:09:06 PM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
Website

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Personal, i think everyone is a little bit racist: it's in our blood, we judge people for what we know of them and if what we know of them is only their look or they race, we just walk with precaution according of our suspects, but that's natural, it's human and in my point of view it's understandable. What is *not* correct is not to give them the right of the doubt; everyone is different and we all know that, too.

When somebody says "don't threat him different if he's chinese" they are lying to theirselfs, it's obvious they will threat him different, as he would threat us different that to their own kind! But trying to know him makes the difference between racism and natural.

I difference 4 grades of racism:

Pretending to be color blind   -   Natural racism   -   Passive racist   -   Son of a bitch

Color blind people: there isn't such thing as color blindness in my opinion. If we all could just admit that we are all racist a little bit, maybe we could work better together and accept us of how different we are. I don't like this people at all, but i don't mess with them - usually. Perhaps, someone can be color blind, but i think only a 20% of all the people who swears to be color blind, they really aren't.

Natural racism: they are just racist at the beginning, as i said before, in a natural and understandable way, they prejudge but they don't swear, after prejudging they investigate, meet and after, the judge.

Passive racist: They don't like foreigners, they prejudge and they don't want to know this people. Maybe they talk bad about them, but they don't really mess with them. They just go on their way.

Son of a bitch: I don't need to explain this, do i?


Romanticide wrote:

Large post with pop tarts involving Spanish Colonization

Oh dear, i think i love having a mexican fellow in this forums.


Spain is a really racist country, but it has an amazing internal war between right side and left side. The 50% of the people are huge racist people (specially old people, who lived the Franco's era) and the other 50% are real hippies.

The rest, the people of my age (13-25) doesn't really have an opinion. In school, everything about the conquest of Mexico has been forgotten. There's anything left in books, the teachers only teach you who was Cristobal Colón. Everything that happened after you will learn it just if you study History Carreer. I find it kind of sad.

I feel somehow upset, and hypocrite, but spanish aren't the guilty ones here, is the government, the education, but if you learn about spanish history you can understand a little bit more of why this happened:

Franco was a huge ass sucker > people who was born in this era were horrible raised in stupid conditions and under stupid laws in schools > Franco's dead > this people are now adults, they raise their kids as they know > when the 3rd generation was born (kind of, my mother generation), their parents spoiled them because they didn't want that they lived what they lived in their horrible childhood when Spain was poor.

Result: stupid spoiled brats and teenagers, inculture, total lack of diplomacy in the mass media, education, hospitals and disorganization.

Add to all this the continuous internal war between hippies and fascist people. We can't suppose that in this conditions the spanish can learn world history, when they can't even control the teenagers in schools, there are a lot of cases of students hitting their teachers, and even threats of death.

*back to topic*

Spanish are racist: new generations, no. They are not racist (WITH LATIN AMERICANS ONLY, there are tons of different races living in Spain such as muslims (in the south), africans, chinese, russians....)), they are ignorant.



También tengo que añadir, querida Tania, que por desgracia nuestro pais no es racista, sino MUY clacisista. poptart

Okay, enough. poptart

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#15 | Back to Top04-27-2007 06:58:34 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Cristobal Colón is probably not my favorite mass murderer.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#16 | Back to Top04-28-2007 03:23:55 AM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
Website

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Cristobal Colón is probably not my favorite mass murderer.

He's not a mass murderer, he didn't even know that he actually discovered a new land. He died thinking he reached India.

Last edited by Epi_lepsia (04-28-2007 06:07:12 AM)

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#17 | Back to Top04-28-2007 06:12:14 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Well, he did have the habit of demanding a gold quota from the inhabitants of some Carribean islands...and then cutting off their hands if they couldn't make it.  He also sometimes turned attack dogs on those same inhabitants for sport.  He pretty much set the tone for all future colonial policy in the Americas emot-frown


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#18 | Back to Top04-28-2007 06:17:34 AM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Cristobal Colón is probably not my favorite mass murderer.

So who is your favourite mass murderer then?


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#19 | Back to Top04-28-2007 11:22:35 AM

Romanticide
Cow Bellhop
From: Mazatlan
Registered: 10-18-2006
Posts: 447

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Epi_lepsia wrote:

The rest, the people of my age (13-25) doesn't really have an opinion. In school, everything about the conquest of Mexico has been forgotten. There's anything left in books, the teachers only teach you who was Cristobal Colón. Everything that happened after you will learn it just if you study History Carreer. I find it kind of sad.

What? emot-aaa Godfucking dammit this continent resources maintained that country for centuries and Mexican gold served to pay the election of Carlos V as a emperor... geez... what the hell... (oh well Mexican oficial history is not that diferent... we tend to forget that one of our biggest independence heroes was spanish-born,Francisco Javier Mina... (and I have to admit the guy in some pictures looks really handsome... etc-wankgirl... I like Vicente Guerrero too etc-love, Morelos and Hidalgo no thanks.. one is too old and both were priest... emot-gonk) and that Maximiliano de Hasburgo wasn't really a bad guy... he did more for the indian population that the so called "liberals" (Everytime you watch Sisi remember... her brother in law was killed here XD)

Epi_lepsia wrote:

También tengo que añadir, querida Tania, que por desgracia nuestro pais no es racista, sino MUY clacisista. poptart

And "Malinchista" (Malichismo is when you hate the people in your own country and adore foreigners just because they are foreigners... an example is the people who dream that an american or an european(a rich one) will marry them and take them out of Mexico to never return...)

Stormcrow wrote:

Well, he did have the habit of demanding a gold quota from the inhabitants of some Carribean islands...and then cutting off their hands if they couldn't make it.  He also sometimes turned attack dogs on those same inhabitants for sport.  He pretty much set the tone for all future colonial policy in the Americas emot-frown

he wouldn't be the last... all spanish expeditions that came demanded gold to the inhabitants... probably even more than food... andyou want a fucking sadist bastart? Search Nuño Beltrán de Guzman... he burned people alive just because he could...

Most of the people who came to the recent discovered lands (afterly known as America) were mostly uneducated poor people or criminals... so we definately not get the best of the lot... all these people came in search or gold or in the hope they would be given lands and slaves... even titles...

Last edited by Romanticide (04-28-2007 11:26:54 AM)


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#20 | Back to Top04-28-2007 08:19:08 PM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Romanticide wrote:

he wouldn't be the last... all spanish expeditions that came demanded gold to the inhabitants... probably even more than food... andyou want a fucking sadist bastart? Search Nuño Beltrán de Guzman... he burned people alive just because he could...

I just did...I think the most depressing part about this is that I didn't find his story particularly unusual...It's hard to remember that mad dogs like this were extreme cases that have been remarked on by history because they were extreme cases.  Especially when it seems there were so many...We must also remember that each of us has that capacity for hatred and violence within us, and we must make a conscious decision to respect our fellows.  I have no desire to be anything like Guzman, so I choose not to be.  I choose instead to be an advocate of peace and friendship among the peoples of the world.  I do not expect to succeed, or to witness the end of violence and hatred.  I have no great confidence that progress will be made in my lifetime.  But I won't give up.


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#21 | Back to Top04-28-2007 11:36:55 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Who is my favorite mass murderer? Hm, that's a difficult one. I'm not particularly keen on mass murderers in general.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#22 | Back to Top04-29-2007 06:37:59 AM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
Website

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Romanticide wrote:

Epi_lepsia wrote:

The rest, the people of my age (13-25) doesn't really have an opinion. In school, everything about the conquest of Mexico has been forgotten. There's anything left in books, the teachers only teach you who was Cristobal Colón. Everything that happened after you will learn it just if you study History Carreer. I find it kind of sad.

What? emot-aaa Godfucking dammit this continent resources maintained that country for centuries and Mexican gold served to pay the election of Carlos V as a emperor... geez... what the hell... (oh well Mexican oficial history is not that diferent... we tend to forget that one of our biggest independence heroes was spanish-born,Francisco Javier Mina... (and I have to admit the guy in some pictures looks really handsome... etc-wankgirl... I like Vicente Guerrero too etc-love, Morelos and Hidalgo no thanks.. one is too old and both were priest... emot-gonk) and that Maximiliano de Hasburgo wasn't really a bad guy... he did more for the indian population that the so called "liberals" (Everytime you watch Sisi remember... her brother in law was killed here XD)

Damn..... Vicente Guerrero... dude, you're raping my childhood emot-gonk that was disgusting! eeeww!! xD

Well, spanish people hardly know who Hernan Cortez was, not even talking about Hildalgo or Jose Maria Morelos.... you know, talking about handsomeness, i think el pípila is a good option, you know, with fire and stuff... poptart


Epi_lepsia wrote:

También tengo que añadir, querida Tania, que por desgracia nuestro pais no es racista, sino MUY clacisista. poptart

And "Malinchista" (Malichismo is when you hate the people in your own country and adore foreigners just because they are foreigners... an example is the people who dream that an american or an european(a rich one) will marry them and take them out of Mexico to never return...)

Well i don't agree with that, mexicans are proud of being mexicans (a very good example is the love to our flag and the independence day). You would know what real malinquismo is if you lived in Spain longer than a week. Last month, they put a spanish flag infront of my school. Is no longer there 8D people were pissed of, they hate their name, they don't call theirselfs "spanish" (se llaman andaluces, catalanes, etc...) and they hate their flag and hymn.

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#23 | Back to Top04-29-2007 11:47:56 AM

Romanticide
Cow Bellhop
From: Mazatlan
Registered: 10-18-2006
Posts: 447

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Epi_lepsia wrote:

Damn..... Vicente Guerrero... dude, you're raping my childhood emot-gonk that was disgusting! eeeww!! xD

My job is done heeeeereeeee!!! emot-dance

Well, spanish people hardly know who Hernan Cortez was, not even talking about Hildalgo or Jose Maria Morelos....

What the hell do they teach to people in these schools!!! emot-gonk

you know, talking about handsomeness, i think el pípila is a good option, you know, with fire and stuff... poptart

He didn't use a rock as a shield for the bullets... he use a flaming poptart!!! emot-dancepoptart Also he didn't torch the door of the Alhondiga with a torch... he used a flaming poptart!!1 emot-dancepoptart All to get the secret stash of poptarts inside!!!! poptartpoptartpoptart (as poptarts were valuable things in the independence war!!!! poptartpoptartpoptart)

Epi_lepsia wrote:

Well i don't agree with that, mexicans are proud of being mexicans (a very good example is the love to our flag and the independence day). You would know what real malinquismo is if you lived in Spain longer than a week. Last month, they put a spanish flag infront of my school. Is no longer there 8D people were pissed of, they hate their name, they don't call theirselfs "spanish" (se llaman andaluces, catalanes, etc...) and they hate their flag and hymn.

Malinchism and racism in Mexico depends the place you go, in the schools I were girls that dreamed to marry blond foreigners and be taken away from this country. The racist happens especially in small town were they just don't like chinese or black people... with no particular reason either, my grandmother didn't and I know many people that thought the same. 

And in the Spain case... is more isolationism, they think spanish as foreigners and think as their region as their country (cataluña, andalucia etc)  But hey is not that weird... think about "the sister republic of Yucatan" who wanted to independence itself many time but couldn't, Chiapas also tried, and Texas definately succeed only to ask to the U.S.A. to accept them as a state... XD

Last edited by Romanticide (04-29-2007 11:49:44 AM)


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#24 | Back to Top04-29-2007 01:39:52 PM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
Website

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

Romanticide wrote:

Epi_lepsia wrote:

Damn..... Vicente Guerrero... dude, you're raping my childhood emot-gonk that was disgusting! eeeww!! xD

My job is done heeeeereeeee!!! emot-dance

Well, spanish people hardly know who Hernan Cortez was, not even talking about Hildalgo or Jose Maria Morelos....

What the hell do they teach to people in these schools!!! emot-gonk

They teach us El Quijote de memoria! emot-gonk

you know, talking about handsomeness, i think el pípila is a good option, you know, with fire and stuff... poptart

He didn't use a rock as a shield for the bullets... he use a flaming poptart!!! emot-dancepoptart Also he didn't torch the door of the Alhondiga with a torch... he used a flaming poptart!!1 emot-dancepoptart All to get the secret stash of poptarts inside!!!! poptartpoptartpoptart (as poptarts were valuable things in the independence war!!!! poptartpoptartpoptart)

YEAH!! El pípila's real name was Nemuro!!! poptartpoptartpoptart yeeeeeey

Epi_lepsia wrote:

Well i don't agree with that, mexicans are proud of being mexicans (a very good example is the love to our flag and the independence day). You would know what real malinquismo is if you lived in Spain longer than a week. Last month, they put a spanish flag infront of my school. Is no longer there 8D people were pissed of, they hate their name, they don't call theirselfs "spanish" (se llaman andaluces, catalanes, etc...) and they hate their flag and hymn.

Malinchism and racism in Mexico depends the place you go, in the schools I were girls that dreamed to marry blond foreigners and be taken away from this country. The racist happens especially in small town were they just don't like chinese or black people... with no particular reason either, my grandmother didn't and I know many people that thought the same. 

And in the Spain case... is more isolationism, they think spanish as foreigners and think as their region as their country (cataluña, andalucia etc)  But hey is not that weird... think about "the sister republic of Yucatan" who wanted to independence itself many time but couldn't, Chiapas also tried, and Texas definately succeed only to ask to the U.S.A. to accept them as a state... XD

They tried to independence but for different reasons: let's admit it, mexico está de la chingada, the money and the living conditions make people thinking about many options to get better; even if that implies separating of your country.

But here is kind of different, when you ask somebody "Are you spanish" the answer will be "No, i'm catalan / andaluz / vasco / gallego ". If you have a spanish flag, it's like an insult. They throw eggs to the national flag in madrid daily.

And, about the malinquismo, if poor people (as you said, in small towns) raise their girls in that way, they will desire to get married with a rich foreigner for not being poor anymore.

I think, "racism" in Mexico depends a lot of the economy situation of each one.

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#25 | Back to Top05-01-2007 10:47:54 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: International Insights on race and racism....

In the Secrets thread in IFD, the topic derailed to a discussion on racism; specifically how the topics of slavery and the Holocaust are taught in schools. I'm quoting all of the posts and posting them here since they fit better in this topic, and we were getting way off-topic in the other thread. emot-keke

dollface wrote:

Alright, this has been boiling inside me for far too long, and I'm going to say it. I know how this forum feels about racism. I swear, I'm not racist. One of my best friends is black, and I'm attracted to asians more than any other race. But I'm tired of hearing talk about slavery being the worst thing in history, and that African Americans have/had it harder than anyone else. Given the choice to be a slave or in the holocaust, I would sure as hell choose to be a slave. I'd rather be whipped than experimented on. I'd rather hanged than gassed. I'd rather be treated wrong because of my skin than because of my religion. Honestly. Alright? I'm not racist. I'm just very passionate about the holocaust, and I'm tired of Jewish people just taking it in stride. They don't get collages just for them, or scholoarships, or a month dedicated to their accomplishments. I'm not in any way trying to imply that slavery was no big deal, or that it was okay, or that African Americans don't deserve any respect. But when we read the Diary of Anne Frank, and you yell out "Why don't we read no slave diaries?", I just can't take it anymore.

Yes, that isn't a secret about me, but it's something that I can't say because enough people treat me like white trash as it is.

Lady Nilamarthiel wrote:

Quoted for fucking truth. I'm no racist either, but I am sick and tired of everything. Same thing with Native Americans. 'They've all had it so hard.' Jesus, no they haven't. Their ancestors did. I say just shut the fuck up about it and live in the present: If we hate you, we hate you because you're a jackass, not because of your skin color. That kind of stuff is moot now. Get over it and say, "I'm an American," instead of "I'm an African-American" or "I'm a Native American" or "I'm an Asian-American". Just saying. God.

morosemocha wrote:

Lady and dollface wrote:

racial stuff

...See, dollface, that's how I feel -about the Holocaust. I am so sick and tired of hearing about it -half the reason I was glad of be out of school was that it meant I never again had to read that fucking Diary of Anne Frank. Every year from fifth grade to my sphomore year. Twice in my freshman year because we had to read the book and the play. She was a self absorbed brat who had a slightly advanced writing style and lived in a literal hole in the wall. She wasn't a fucking hero. By my sophomore year, I was freaking thrilled that the Nazi's carted her off. I. Fucking. Hate. That. Book. If you want the Holocaust to really be lectured about, you ought to come down here. They rub your face in it, to make sure you "never forget" and in reality, all they did was make me and the rest of my friends incredibly sick of it, and annoyed. I get pissed off when I see stories about Holocaust reperations still being made.

My problem was that there was a lack of instruction about anything else pertaining to WWII. It was always Jews this, Jews that. But the Gypies? The homosexuals? The near extermination of the Poles? How about the politics involved, the manuevering of the battlefields, even THE DATES OF THE MOTHERFUCKING BATTLES. No, it was This Camp was freed on such and such date, and That Camp was freed on that and that date. Did we even cover the Pacific Theatre? No. Of course not. Did we discuss how English's harsh demands in the Treaty Of Versailles pretty much caused the whole damned war? No, of course not! What about how how we allied with Stalin, who then went on to systematically kill even more people? How about the discussion that France, who had lost an entire generation in WWI created one of the largest underground terrorist/freedom fighter networks that for the first time had women amongst it's ranks?

And you know, I once had a girl in school ask me if I was a Nazi. Why? 'cause I had my German textbook, my Japanese dictionary, and my Italian Pride shirt. I was like "Wtf?stfubitch!" And she's all "I think it's disgraceful that you have all those Axis things, I'm Jewish." Do I look like I give a shit? Go eat some gefilte. Oooooh, and the goddamn demonification of the former Axis powers. Goddamn. Some girl in one of my never ending History/Holocaust Guilt classes was all "Oh, Italy and Japan got off scott free." emot-aaa Wtf, are you STUPID? As for Japan, have you ever heard of DOUGLAS MACARTHUR? And Italy? Well, hell, it pulled from the war long before Germany did, turning against Mussolini. And unlike France, who turned over their Jewish citizens the second the Germans marched into town, the Italians hid theirs. Less then ten percent were shipped to concentration camps, and five thousand of them were hidden -by the Vatican. And you know the whole "Silent Approval of The Church" that gets leveled at the church all the time? Yeah, if the Pope at the time had spoken against Hitler, it would have given him every reason to march on Vatican city, take the basilica and turn the Pope into a figurehead, or kill him and have another one appointed that would be more helpful. Instead, by staying quiet, Hitler was forced to leave it be, and the smuggling of Jews continued.

...Wow, okay, off topic, and sorry for the rant.

Uhhh...

emot-redface

dollface wrote:

I understand exactly what you mean. I really am sick of the Diary, but it still pissed me off that they thought it was wrong to talk about the Holocaust instead of slavery. Just for that one section. I mean, jesus, I'm really sorry to anyone who is African-American, but I give you your month. I do projects on it and really am eager to learn. At this point, I'm not doing anything else. You have some colleges, and the Million Man march! Jews may seem a little glorified the way you said it, but at least they don't seem to demand so much of me. No jew has ever asked me to apologize for the Holocaust, but I've been asked to say I was sorry for slavery! Excuse me, YOU weren't a slave, and I wasn't a honkey bitch.

Razara wrote:

Slavery probably gets more attention because the Holocaust is something that happened in Europe, and was not caused by America, whereas slavery is something that happened in America... Not that this makes it any less wrong, but haven't humans been enslaving each other for thousands of years? White ancestors could have been enslaved at some point as well.

As for the Holocaust, in my school, I hear kids complaining about how they've read Night several years in a row. I read it for the first time last year. Amazingly enough, Kealdrea still has no idea as to what went on in the Holocaust. She never read Night in any of her classes, and she doesn't want me to give her any details.

Stormcrow wrote:

sigh...this definitely belongs in the racism thread, but I'll post it here for now.  If anyone thinks it should be moved, I won't object.  Let's start in the interest of full disclosure by saying that I am a Jew, but since the remarks about slavery came first, I'll address them first.  The kidnapping and forced relocation of Africans was one of the grimmer periods of human history.  I'm sure that you've all heard most of this before, but it was common practice for the captives on these ships to be chained together, and simply dumped overboard en masse in the event that a British ship were sighted.  As long as one captive in three reached the Americas, the company sponsoring the ship could expect a profit.  Another interesting point is that most of the African captives were actually sent to Brazil.  Anyway, it was truly terrible, more terrible than we can probably imagine.  And it is important that we all know that it happened.  It is also important to know that the vast majority of the African captives were actually imporisoned originally by other Africans.  And that the slave trade was actually originated by Arab merchants.  Even the Chinese were in on it at one point.  Everyone, everyone got dirty.  Now, I'm not an advocate of reparations, but the current unfortunate state of race relations in this country didn't come from nowhere, and we all need to remember.

Now, regarding the Holocaust.  A few facts first.  The Hebrew word for what we call the Holocaust is Ha-Shoah, which refers to the one sacrifice practiced at the ancient temple of which no one ate.  It was burned in its entirety.  During the course of the Holocaust a total of 6 million Jews were murdered, along with 5 million Romany, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, communists, etc.  By way of comparison, 60 years later the world Jewish population was estimated at 14 million.  6 million is a big number.  Further, over 4 million of these Jews are estimated to have been killed in the last year and a half of the war.  The death camps were in fact factories: people went in, ashes came out.  The Nazis literally intended to destory every Jew on the planet, and they were very good at it.  60 years isn't that long ago, and I have spoken with several people who were there and saw it all.  That said, the world Jewish community has an enormous chip on its shoulder, but I hope that if you think about it for a moment, you'll understand, if not excuse, my people for being a little gun-shy.

With that unpleasant business out of the way, I can address the question of why some topics are focused on at the expense of others.  First off, the Jews of the world aren't exactly eager to be noticed.  There's a lot to be said for anonymity, and they don't want people getting riled up any more than they already are.  Anti-semitism did not die out with the Nazis, and is in fact on the rise again.  On the other hand, it's a fact that Jews have much more political power in America than black people do.  Several sitting senators are widely known to look down on black people, but you never hear any serious candidate breathe a negative word about Israel.  These subjects aren't handled very well in schools, largely because they consist of the same three or four discussions over and over again.  Anne Frank for example.  I myself have never read her diary, and I don't feel that my understanding of the events is in any way diminished.

I would like to point out that I feel very strongly that nothing whatsoever is gained by comparing who suffered worse.  Pretty much every ethnic or religious group has had it pretty rough at one time or another, and all of that suffering deserves our respect.  At times, the whole of human history appears to have been inked in blood, but there have also been many triumphs.  Watch Life is Beautiful if you don't believe me.

In closing, I urge anyone reading this to seek out a place where you can engage people of different backgrounds in discussion on this subject.  Most universities offer some kind of classes on cultural sensitivity.  It is very uncomfortable at first, but you'd be amazed at how easy it is to carry the conversation once you take that first step.  And how much better you feel after you have.  Peace and Love to you all.

EDIT EDIT:  I hope that didn't come off as hostile.  I tend to write in a kind of clinical way which probably seems cold, but I really mean that last sentence.

EDIT EDIT EDIT:  I still can't make this sound any better.  Argghh, I really don't mean to offend, I just...maybe I'll just delete the whole thing...

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

In dollface's example the majority where she lives seem to want to talk about slavery, and in mocha's example it's the Holocaust instead. I guess it just depends on what area you live in? \: As for me, I love to learn about all cultures.. but not the same thing over and over, so I understand in both cases. I got annoyed when we learned too much about U.S. history, since I preferred learning about other countries. (Especially since I live in the U.S.)

Where I live, it's mostly like in dollface's example. It's mostly black and white people here. We learn about slavery a lot. I usually don't mind it too much. I have public school education and Black history month and learning about slavery to thank for me not turning out racist like my parents. And it is really sad. I used to feel bad about it as a kid, and wanted to apologize on behalf of my race, but then when I grew up I realized that was absurd. I have nothing to apologize for. I never enslaved anyone. My ancestors may have, but not me. (And even then, we're all related at least distantly..)

I've also learned a fair bit about the Holocaust, and I thought it was interesting, from what little we learned of. We only got to read an excerpt of Anne Frank's diary and school, but I was curious about the rest so I checked it out of the school library and read it myself. But, like in dollface's example, when I think about it, a lot of the people  in school who expressed so much apathy about the subject were the same people that were so eager to learn about slavery in school. There was this one girl in my sister's English class who kept repeatedly asking why they didn't read anything about slavery. (I'm not sure how many Slave journals there are, too, since most slaves were uneducated)

I mean, both the slavery and the Holocaust were terrible things that shouldn't have happened to anyone. I see that. But I find it sad that some people become so interested about one if it is in their heritage, but are completely apathetic about the other. Both involve human cruelty. You don't need to be black, white, Jewish, etc. to emphasize with that.

morosemocha wrote:

My biggest objection is to the fact that there's no balance. It just seems like a culture is either perfect or utter evil, and nothing in between. Sure, there are a lot of things that make me proud of being american, but there's plenty that shames me. I'm against organized religion as a whole, but I do accept that some of the greatest art in the world is religiously based. I just wish people could balance things, could be a little more willing to look at things as a whole instead of parceling it out and saying this must be this, that must that. It divides us, and makes us less then our potential to be, which is sad. I agree with Stormcrow, there's no point in trying to say that Stalin was worse, or that the Khmer Rouge was more torturous, whatever, but... it seems like the more we try to "Never Forget" something, the more things we actually forget. My school never touched the Khmer Rouge or the killing fields in Cambodia. I learned about that from Doonesbury of all places, and asked my parents. The sheer amount of things that my school skipped is disgusting. I just wish people would stop going "Hitler is the ultimate evil." There's plenty of evil in this world. The capacity for it is great. But, fervently I hope that the capacity for human goodness is even greater.

We should probably move the bottom part of this over to racism tho. emot-frown I didn't mean to get preachy. I'm sorry... emot-frown


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