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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#51 | Back to Top04-20-2009 10:15:15 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
Website

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

Riri-kins wrote:

he probably told her he loved her.

Somehow I doubt that. Utena's behavior is many things after she sleeps with him, but it's not reflective of someone that got told that, and I don't give her enough credit to hear 'I love you' and not run right into brick walls with it. Besides, it would have offered a way around her guilt. He loves her! I mean, yeah he's engaged and all but LOVE OVERRIDES EVERYTHING YA YA YA? Wakaba barks something similar a few times but I think a lot of the source of Utena's guilt concerning Akio is that it's not driven by love, for either of them. At the very least I don't think Utena ever thinks Akio's in love with her, and I really wonder if she ever truly feels in love with him, I mean beyond the intense crush.

As for the stretching, it's definitely a nervous/boredom thing. Pent up energy that has to be released somehow, like nervousness in the hotel room, or tension in a conversation with Juri.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#52 | Back to Top04-21-2009 08:52:37 AM

Pfft
Touga Topper
From: Philadelphia
Registered: 12-09-2008
Posts: 51

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

I agree that she probably knows "subconsciously" and manages to convince herself that she doesn't. I think the really cute thing is how the viewer is made to do exactly the same thing. At least I was completely oblivious up until the very final shot: "wait... she did WHAT? With AKIO!!?". So we get to go through the same process of ignoring the obvious cues...


~ a Sphinx-phinx in the winter of the desert  ~

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#53 | Back to Top04-21-2009 09:31:31 AM

Soukougnan
Black Rosarian
From: home. sort of.
Registered: 01-02-2009
Posts: 373

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

i never even thought twice about this {something that isn't at all an uncommon occurrence for me, though you'd think i'd learn, what with Utena}, but that's a great question. love the interpretations of the go/othello game, too.

every other time i come here, i feel the need to go back a watch a few episodes... i really need to save up for those dvds...


what-- where did i go?

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#54 | Back to Top04-21-2009 04:23:02 PM

YostinAust
Pathtracer
From: Tallahassee, Florida
Registered: 04-02-2009
Posts: 352

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

Giovanna wrote:

Riri-kins wrote:

he probably told her he loved her.

Somehow I doubt that. Utena's behavior is many things after she sleeps with him, but it's not reflective of someone that got told that, and I don't give her enough credit to hear 'I love you' and not run right into brick walls with it. Besides, it would have offered a way around her guilt. He loves her! I mean, yeah he's engaged and all but LOVE OVERRIDES EVERYTHING YA YA YA? Wakaba barks something similar a few times but I think a lot of the source of Utena's guilt concerning Akio is that it's not driven by love, for either of them.

emot-tongue Somehow I doubt Giovanna. Though Akio probably isn't the kind of guy who needs to tell a girl some bullshit about loving her just to sleep with her school-devil, Utena constantly seems torn apart due to what happens because she is concerned about the love she feels. Akio doesn't pull the same stuff with her that he does on everyone else, letting Touga do the talking and then showing up waving his big ass car around; he slowly courts Utena over the course of two seasons. Utena's biggest conflict both immediately before and after that time seemed to be between her love for Akio and her love for Anthy. In episode 34, Akio pretty brings this to her attention by asking about her feelings for Anthy and then about her feelings for him. Her love for Anthy is like that for a sister or princess, and her love for Akio is her love for a father and a prince. Here we see the essential conflict of Utena's nature, either to be a helpless princess or a deluded prince. She ultimately takes a third option, but that's a topic for another thread.


"In this age, the mere example of non-conformity, the mere refusal to bend the knee to custom, is itself a service"
     - John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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#55 | Back to Top04-22-2009 07:56:08 AM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
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Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

Even now, today, as we speak together here, Utena has no clue about what did happen to her in that sordid hotel bedroom...

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#56 | Back to Top04-23-2009 08:24:18 PM

KillerxXxQueen
Snowdrop Lover
From: North Augusta, SC
Registered: 04-22-2009
Posts: 1760

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

I'm sure she still doesn't really get it.

"You see Miss Utena, when a man is trying to manipulate and psychologically torture a girl...or a guy, he will insert his pe--"

"BOOOOOOOOOORRRRRINNNNNNGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, I'm sorry Anthy, were you talking?"

"...*sigh* No, Miss Utena."

That's about how I picture that conversation going.


"Reason I know is only a drug and, as such, its effects are never permanent."
                                                         --Hope Mirrlees, Lud-in-the-Mist

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#57 | Back to Top04-23-2009 08:40:22 PM

spoon-san
Someday Shiner
Registered: 03-18-2009
Posts: 3423

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

lol@ KillerxQueen and Sharnii.

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#58 | Back to Top06-06-2009 08:49:00 AM

Charuru
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 06-05-2009
Posts: 90

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

I always thought this scene was hilarious, why was why I loved it to so much. But the rest of the episode emot-mad

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#59 | Back to Top07-01-2009 03:23:28 PM

Setsuna
Tragedian
Registered: 02-25-2009
Posts: 1370

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

Hmmm...I am re watching this scene at the moment, but listening to my iPod as well and the Journey song 'Open Arms' came up. It fits...but it really doesn't. Odd?

Anyway I have to agree with the statement that she knew that it would happen. She doesn't want the subject to come up, and she doesn't want to also because of Anthy's sake. But at the same time she does want it. She is totally hot for Akio, but she (of course) doesn't see him as she should.

And...if this was the real world...Isn't there an age of consent...?

(And, damn, that is nice room service. Honestly, she didn't have it that bad. She got to stay in a fancy hotel with him, get room service, and screw him. Not that bad of a evening if you ask me. emot-dance )

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#60 | Back to Top07-04-2009 09:28:08 PM

hollow_rose
Egghead
From: Ohio
Registered: 10-26-2008
Posts: 1074

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

Whenever it is that they check into the same room together. Her nervousness throughout that episode sort of indicates to me she knows what's coming, the way she keeps talking about nothing very important. It seems like nervous babble.


20 threads dead so far.

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#61 | Back to Top08-23-2011 02:37:15 PM

artemis88
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 05-05-2011
Posts: 66

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

In my opinion.. She did know, she's naive at times but not dense.

Please bear with me here but this is my interpretation:

Every little girl's dream is supposed to be that of being a princess. To dream of one day being swept away by a prince, and living happily ever after. Utena tries hard to both be "normal" and yet also a deep-seated desire to become the prince. I think Utena begins as a (ok some people may wish to scream at me for this) a lesbian, in denial. I can relate to both Utena and Anthy in many ways both good and bad, but Utena's slow acceptance of herself is an important theme to me,

so, in this scene I see a girl who is desperately trying to act the part of a "princess", but she knows it's wrong on several levels. Not only does she feel like she's betraying Anthy, she's desperate to prove she's a heterosexual woman. And disturbed by how uncomfortable this cognitive dissonance is making her. it reaches a fever pitch by the end of the scene.

This scene turns my stomach and makes my skin crawl for so many obvious reasons, but as a formerly self-hating lesbian, that is how I interpret her odd behavior.

That and, she's a mere girl of 14 in a hotel room with a much older man. Girl-prince or not I'm sure she was terrified.

This all said, as much as I despise Akio and wish he had never touched her, I'm glad the series went there. it wouldn't work if the only character left untouched by Akio was Utena. It makes her following actions so much more meaningful.

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#62 | Back to Top08-24-2011 10:04:24 PM

Seen
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 07-19-2011
Posts: 61

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

Setsuna wrote:

And...if this was the real world...Isn't there an age of consent...?

Yeah, it's 13 in Japan, I think.

Although I don't think blabbering on and on about the lunch for tomorrow can be considered "consent." school-sherlock

She really seemed to be distracting herself during that to me. I'm also going to jump on the "exorcize is a way to shave off stress and anxiety" bandwagon.

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#63 | Back to Top12-17-2012 02:56:44 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

Alright, this has been making a stir as of late, so I'll ask the obvious question:
Was this a rape or not?

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#64 | Back to Top12-17-2012 04:12:57 PM

HonorableShadow
Cow Bellhop
From: Ohio
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 471
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Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

Atropos wrote:

Alright, this has been making a stir as of late, so I'll ask the obvious question:
Was this a rape or not?

It depends. What is Japan's age of consent?


Rose tint my world...
Keep me safe from my trouble and pain.

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#65 | Back to Top12-17-2012 04:13:59 PM

MikoGalatea
Rose Bride
From: England, UK
Registered: 02-25-2012
Posts: 115
Website

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

Atropos wrote:

Alright, this has been making a stir as of late, so I'll ask the obvious question:
Was this a rape or not?

Oh, man, this can of worms... emot-gonk

FWIW, I see the scene as dubcon, though the situation would certainly qualify as rape in a real-life context. Utena is so obviously uncomfortable during the whole thing that there's no way I could see it as 100% consensual, but on the other hand, the fact she ended up naked in bed with Akio in the first place implies some sort of bare-minimum agreement to the act; of course, then there's the matter of whether that counts as meaningful consent at all, especially given her young age.

Either way, I still think Akio is a complete bastard for what he did there... and even if it were fully consensual, that would be a moot point because in this show, consensual relationships like Akio/Tokiko and Ruka/Shiori tend to have almost as much wrong with them as the dubcon/rape situations.

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#66 | Back to Top12-17-2012 04:57:27 PM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

It could be rape by modern Japan's laws if its' a human male in his 20s and a 14 yr old girl . . . but fact is the man is a 1000+ yr old god by strict definition; that, and part of him still is the 12 yr old-ish "Dios".

And, being that Akio and Anthy have existed since ancient times - where parents arranged for their daughters to be married off by like 13 or even younger - I don't think the concept of statutory rape will quite register in either of their minds

Edied to add:
As for Utena doing the stretching in the mini-skirt and then showering and all that jazz . . . she has to know what was going to happen, just like she must clearly recognize Akio's red car to be identical to the ones spouting out from the Duelling Arena.  She is seduced, but never made to do what she does not want done.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (12-17-2012 05:02:35 PM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#67 | Back to Top12-17-2012 05:34:17 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

Doesn't Utena being a student and him the acting chairman make the thing a bit sketchy as well

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#68 | Back to Top12-18-2012 06:28:25 AM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

Atropos wrote:

Alright, this has been making a stir as of late, so I'll ask the obvious question:
Was this a rape or not?

Honestly? No. Was she betrayed? Manipulated? Used? Oh, most definitely! With bells on! However, as someone who was once taken advantage of in a broadly similar manner, it wasn't rape.

If she were in the same country as I am, where the age of consent is sixteen (fun fact: in Australia, you are legally able to have sex several years before you're legally allowed to drink or drive a car or gamble...hmm) I'd be there at the door with a large stick before you could say, 'mental and emotional maturity does count, you know!' but in Japan, there seems to be a certain cultural push towards a child going straight from childhood into being a young adult. Not much by way of teenage years. I could be wrong about this, but...it does carry a sort of implication that the Japanese are introduced to certain concepts much sooner than Westerners are. This may not seem to work in practice, i.e Utena, however. So while Akio and Anthy did one hell of a number on her, others of her age might be expected to have more tools to defend themselves. A Japanese person might well interpret the entire situation quite differently to the way we do; I think that this is an important point to factor in.

So, here's what we have: a teenager who, in Japanese society, should have at least the basic concepts of sex and love in place. And there's Akio, the seducer, the tempter, the Morning Star. See, thing is, did Akio ever actually coerce her? Lie to her? I don't think he did. He laid the track, he manipulated Utena with a terrifying brilliance, he hedged, he omitted, he mislead... but there was always the choice for Utena: all she had to do was say no. Akio led her to his bed but he didn't make her lie down on it.

He manipulated the living fuck out of her.... but ultimately, all he did was show her the way. She walked there herself. We could argue that she didn't know any better, and that's true... to an extent. But the thing is, she had her doubts, she knew what she was doing with Akio was wrong. Admittedly, she thought she was doing wrong for all the wrong reasons. But it does prove that she had some of the tools she needed to defend herself. Even if they weren't quite the right ones.

So, at the end of the day, Utena wasn't raped. But Akio is still a fucking paedophilic incestuous parasitical mongrel regardless.

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#69 | Back to Top03-04-2013 10:35:43 AM

Romanticide
Cow Bellhop
From: Mazatlan
Registered: 10-18-2006
Posts: 447

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

The moment I am completely sure Utena knew she was going to have sex to me is... right at the moment she went to take a bath. While I cannot help to think she may have know since they entered the hotel I think the bath was the crucial point, why? because I read somewhere that is very typical from japanese people to take a bath or invite your partner to use the bath before having sex and that colored my whole perspective XD
I am also the idea of the streches and babbling to be nervousness, sex is scary, first times can be scarier, and she seemed to be overhelmed by Akio whom she view as mature, talented, more experienced etc.

I still view Akio's actions in this case a total abuse of autority and statutory rape though. But at this point is probably redundant. XD


http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1390/firmautenaji0.jpg

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#70 | Back to Top03-04-2013 12:24:13 PM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
Website

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

Romanticide wrote:

I think the bath was the crucial point, why? because I read somewhere that is very typical from japanese people to take a bath or invite your partner to use the bath before having sex and that colored my whole perspective XD

You are correct.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#71 | Back to Top03-04-2013 03:32:40 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

Makes sense to me. Clean people are more sexy, right?

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#72 | Back to Top03-04-2013 03:38:15 PM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
Website

Re: So when does Utena figure out she's about to get laid?

Lurv wrote:

Makes sense to me. Clean people are more sexy, right?

Japanese (and most dignified Asians) fear bringing embarrassment upon oneself by one's own laziness/self-neglect.  Keeping clean before sex is the least one can do to avoid coming off potentially repulsive to the other partner.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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