You are not logged in.

Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top03-15-2007 07:39:11 AM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Long, long ago...

We all know the story of prince Dios and his sister, the witch, who sealed him away. My question is - how long ago did it happen? How old are they, really?

I always assumed they were at least a few centuries old. I guess what made me believe that are the words "eternal curse" which are repeated often in the series, the repetition [revolution], and Akio and Anthy's personalities, which make them seem as though they've seen everything and had just about enough.

But the series timeline claims otherwise. I've never really given it much thought before, but now that I have - Anthy can't be over 14. When Utena was 7, Anthy was the same age. When Utena was 14, Anthy was the same age. At first I thought that Akio and Anthy have been in Ohtori for a long, long time and only looked their ages because time in Ohtori is messed up, but Akio and Anthy could only take over Ohtori after they met Utena for the first time, because back at that time Dios was only partly Akio. That makes me very sad. Does anyone have any thoughts on the subject?

Last edited by Hina the Prince (03-15-2007 07:40:12 AM)

Offline

 

#2 | Back to Top03-15-2007 08:09:36 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
Website

Re: Long, long ago...

I think the only way to think about timelines in SKU is if you approach them from a symbolic or philosophical view point. Otherwise it won't make much sense... :/

Now that I think about it, this could be divided into two parts:
1) the symbolic use of physical appearence
2) making time seem something that it really isn't, or in other words: messing with time. A LOT. emot-gonk

1) In episode 34 we see the flashback of what really happened. Anthy is portrayed quite young (Dios too, but he seems to change his age at times), but could it be that this is only how Anthy seemed to be? What I mean is that, maybe it's symbolic how Anthy made her sacrifice. People often do stupid things when they're young and Anthy's sacrifice couldn't be considered a smart thing to do. Now moving on, when Utena meets Anthy and Dios, could it be that she is only portrayed as being so young? Maybe she was much older than that when they met.

Arrgh, I'll have to finish this later. I must go to work.

Also, interesting thread. I can already imagine how much this will make my head hurt. emot-tongue


The Saionji Support Squad:
Believing in True Friendship Since 2008.

Offline

 

#3 | Back to Top03-15-2007 08:43:33 AM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: Long, long ago...

Maarika wrote:

1) In episode 34 we see the flashback of what really happened. Anthy is portrayed quite young (Dios too, but he seems to change his age at times), but could it be that this is only how Anthy seemed to be? What I mean is that, maybe it's symbolic how Anthy made her sacrifice. People often do stupid things when they're young and Anthy's sacrifice couldn't be considered a smart thing to do.

Mm, you could have a point. But then, what was up with Dios in that part? He seemed like he was stuck in the middle, between being the prince and becoming Akio. I can't think of any other way to explain the way he looked.

Now moving on, when Utena meets Anthy and Dios, could it be that she is only portrayed as being so young? Maybe she was much older than that when they met.

That's extremely unlikely IMO. After all, her childhood memory of meeting her prince is later revealed as not being sugar-coated the way she remembered it - so now it's not her childhood memory, either? Why? What's the reason for her to be portrayed as a child?

I can already imagine how much this will make my head hurt. emot-tongue

Me too. I can't wait. 8D

Offline

 

#4 | Back to Top03-15-2007 09:20:13 AM

Etrangere
Rose Smilee
From: Paris
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 134
Website

Re: Long, long ago...

Hina the Prince wrote:

We all know the story of prince Dios and his sister, the witch, who sealed him away. My question is - how long ago did it happen? How old are they, really?

It happened once upon a time, which is the time before History, and the time before time as is chronicled. That's why the flashback is full fo anachronism. It's fairy tale time.

Dios and Anthy's age is "one the verge of adulthood". They're children, but with this hint of sexualization that can make them older sometimes. 14 is a good enough age for that. But the age shift depending on what role they have. By opposition Akio is older, he's the fully realized sexual adult.

It's all archetypal.


Yes. You shouldn't be suspicious of Anthy. Her big brother is your watching. There is no war in Ba Sing Se. ~ Dalbun

Offline

 

#5 | Back to Top03-15-2007 09:36:23 AM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Long, long ago...

Wait, I'm confused, so Akio and Anthy have the ability to change their appearance into whatever age they want?
I remember that Akio is already living as an "adult" during Nemuro's time, which is, supposedly, a period of Ohtori Academy before the Student Council is being assembled.
And judging at how Tokiko's aged over the years, I assume that it's at least two to three decades he's stayed that way.

Offline

 

#6 | Back to Top03-15-2007 09:41:47 AM

Etrangere
Rose Smilee
From: Paris
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 134
Website

Re: Long, long ago...

Hiraku wrote:

Wait, I'm confused, so Akio and Anthy have the ability to change their appearance into whatever age they want?

I don't think it's a concious power like a shapeshifting ability. It's more like they appear to be the age fitting to their role in a specific scene/moment.


Yes. You shouldn't be suspicious of Anthy. Her big brother is your watching. There is no war in Ba Sing Se. ~ Dalbun

Offline

 

#7 | Back to Top03-15-2007 09:45:40 AM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: Long, long ago...

Hiraku wrote:

Wait, I'm confused, so Akio and Anthy have the ability to change their appearance into whatever age they want?
I remember that Akio is already living as an "adult" during Nemuro's time, which is, supposedly, a period of Ohtori Academy before the Student Council is being assembled.
And judging at how Tokiko's aged over the years, I assume that it's at least two to three decades he's stayed that way.

Oh heck, you're right, I forgot all about Mikage! Now I'm even more confused about Utena's flashback. Maybe it's possible that what she saw was the inner Anthy, who is a child like in the last episode, as well as Akio who tried to look princely in order to get her into the dueling game when she's older, but couldn't do in completely because there's no returning to innocence once you've lost it?

And I don't think they can change their age according to their will. They're just frozen in their current age. I don't think Anthy changed form in order to become Mamiya, either - Mikage was just insane enough to see her as him just the way she was. I don't think anyone else saw Anthy!Mamiya.

Last edited by Hina the Prince (03-15-2007 09:47:52 AM)

Offline

 

#8 | Back to Top03-15-2007 09:47:33 AM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Long, long ago...

Hina the Prince wrote:

And I don't think they can change their age according to their will. They're just frozen in their current age. I don't think Anthy changed form in order to become Mamiya, either - Mikage was just insane enough to see her as him just the way she was. I don't think anyone else saw Anthy!Mamiya.

Not even Anthy realizes that in my opinion. She doesn't even know why she becomes so sleepy lately (too much overnights with two champion candidates)

Offline

 

#9 | Back to Top03-15-2007 09:49:31 AM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: Long, long ago...

No, she knew full well what she was doing - her wicked smile in the end of the arc was proof of that, more than anything. The whole "oh gee I'm so sleep and I don't know why" thing was just an act.

Offline

 

#10 | Back to Top03-15-2007 09:55:03 AM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Long, long ago...

Hina the Prince wrote:

No, she knew full well what she was doing - her wicked smile in the end of the arc was proof of that, more than anything. The whole "oh gee I'm so sleep and I don't know why" thing was just an act.

She was the only one in the dorm at that time, Utena's not there, who could she be trying to fool? The audience?

Okay that's kinda creepy when the characters are manipulating the viewers. I'm scared now emot-aaa

Last edited by Hiraku (03-15-2007 09:55:26 AM)

Offline

 

#11 | Back to Top03-15-2007 09:58:16 AM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: Long, long ago...

Hiraku wrote:

Hina the Prince wrote:

No, she knew full well what she was doing - her wicked smile in the end of the arc was proof of that, more than anything. The whole "oh gee I'm so sleep and I don't know why" thing was just an act.

She was the only one in the dorm at that time, Utena's not there, who could she be trying to fool? The audience?

Utena wasn't there? I was sure she was... oo; What episode was that, anyway?

Offline

 

#12 | Back to Top03-15-2007 04:01:27 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Long, long ago...

Maarika wrote:

I think the only way to think about timelines in SKU is if you approach them from a symbolic or philosophical view point. Otherwise it won't make much sense... :/

I agree. Dios/Akio and Anthy don't originate from any specific time - they're timeless archetypes that experience surface changes but remain largely the same deep down. Dios' fall is an exception, ofcourse, but I doubt that it happened at any specific timedate, either. It could be perceived as the collective loss of the humanity's innocence. Ikuhara was clearly trying to muddle any attempts of figuring out the timeframe. Note the modern clothes on the sword-bearing mob as well as the fax machine in the barn, for example.
It's interesting to note that there doesn't seem to be that big difference between apparent ages of Anthy and Dios as there is between Anthy and Akio...

I'm certain by the way, that if Akio suddenly taught that a college would be a better place for the Duelling Game, Anthy'd be 18 in a flash - age is just another mask to wear. But since middle and high school are far better ground considering the teenagers' mentality, she remains 14.


Hina the Prince wrote:

Hiraku wrote:

She was the only one in the dorm at that time, Utena's not there, who could she be trying to fool? The audience?

Utena wasn't there? I was sure she was... oo; What episode was that, anyway?

I believe this was a similar matter as her being the "mirror" of the Victor's feelings. She would keep playing the part, even become the part she was playing to acheive the maximum effect. You can't drop the role just because anyone isn't watching, until it is at its end.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

Offline

 

#13 | Back to Top03-15-2007 04:17:47 PM

iruka
Rose Smilee
Registered: 11-11-2006
Posts: 134

Re: Long, long ago...

Maybe Akio and Anthy look different to each beholder... :incomprehensible: That is, when Utena first saw Akio, he looked young because she was angry at the adult world for taking away her parents, and wouldn't listen to him if he looked like an adult. Or something. emot-redface
It could be they're kind of like a mirror of what's in the beholder's soul, what they want to see. Fuuma from X comes to mind; he has the power to take on the general air of a person that's important to the beholder.

Offline

 

#14 | Back to Top03-15-2007 07:09:33 PM

Romanticide
Cow Bellhop
From: Mazatlan
Registered: 10-18-2006
Posts: 447

Re: Long, long ago...

Ever hear of "myth time", in this things are no supposed to be measured in time as we know it...


http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1390/firmautenaji0.jpg

Offline

 

#15 | Back to Top03-15-2007 07:24:24 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Long, long ago...

Fairy-tale time, metaphorical time and the like do seem to be the most reasonable. A person could go nuts if time is literal and linear. There are lots of crazy and deliberate anachonisms:

The destruction of Dios happened a long time ago, it happened when Utena was seven.
Ohtori was created specifically for Utena, it was built in the nineteen-teens.
Anthy must suffer forever, or she doesn't have to.
Utena's comment that she feels like she has fought Touga numerous times, she has fought him three times.

Not to mention the French Court balls, the gramaphones, a fax machine in a log cabin. A lot of that is deliberate because we are not supposed to view things in too linear a fashion. Not that events don't have consequences but the story doesn't obey a stopwatch.

Offline

 

#16 | Back to Top03-15-2007 09:38:33 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Long, long ago...

Hina the Prince wrote:

Utena wasn't there? I was sure she was... oo; What episode was that, anyway?

The first time it's mentioned, Anthy falls asleep standing up while Miki and Utena are talking. That's in episode 21.

In episode 23, while Utena goes to see Mikage, Anthy asks an empty room why she's so sleepy these days.

Lightice wrote:

Hiraku wrote:

She was the only one in the dorm at that time, Utena's not there, who could she be trying to fool? The audience?

I believe this was a similar matter as her being the "mirror" of the Victor's feelings. She would keep playing the part, even become the part she was playing to acheive the maximum effect. You can't drop the role just because anyone isn't watching, until it is at its end.

She doesn't play the part of Utena's rose bride when she's with Akio. school-devil

Even when she's with Utena, Anthy constantly says and does things on the sly, so to speak. Things that reflect how she really views people, rather than how Utena would want her to. She coaxes Miki into dueling the first time by saying exactly what Utena would never want her to say. Although that was also an act, it was a different act. Whereas, alone in her room, how would Anthy asking a question aloud to no one be pretense?

Anyway, back to the first question. I feel the story of the prince and his witch sister probably predates the concept of princes and witches.


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

Offline

 

#17 | Back to Top03-16-2007 12:16:53 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Long, long ago...

brian wrote:

The destruction of Dios happened a long time ago, it happened when Utena was seven.
Ohtori was created specifically for Utena, it was built in the nineteen-teens.

I don't think either of these are established facts. I'm all but certain that "Dios" in Utena's flashbacks is disguised Akio - why else would he be handing out a Rose Signet or how Akio would be able to give completely accurate description of what happened that day, with illustrations and all, before the last Duel?
Also, I doubt that Ohtori was created specifically for Utena in any timeline - she was just the most succesful candidate.

Ragnarok wrote:

She doesn't play the part of Utena's rose bride when she's with Akio. school-devil

Well, yeah but that's a special occurrence and she's serving a different role during those times. emot-wink

Whereas, alone in her room, how would Anthy asking a question aloud to no one be pretense?

Because of self-conditioning, I'd say, as I mentioned before. She can't drop the role just because there is apparently no-one present. Someone could potentially be present and that's all that is needed.
Alternatively, she could just be making a rethoric question out loud for the viewers' sake. I've been known to ask that of myself after week of sleeping four hours per night, even though the answer's obvious...


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

Offline

 

#18 | Back to Top03-16-2007 09:29:46 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Long, long ago...

Lightice wrote:

Whereas, alone in her room, how would Anthy asking a question aloud to no one be pretense?

Because of self-conditioning, I'd say, as I mentioned before. She can't drop the role just because there is apparently no-one present. Someone could potentially be present and that's all that is needed.

But Anthy isn't bound to one role at other times. She subtly (and not so subtly) manipulates people by playing various different roles as the situation requires. She doesn't have a set role that she must be true to, certainly not to the point that she's compelled to act any specific way when she knows she's alone.

For example, in episode 12, when Touga leaves her on the balcony, she imagines sitting across from Utena. That isn't in any way being true to her role as Touga's bride. It gives the audience some insight, while having Anthy remain true to herself.

Lightice wrote:

Alternatively, she could just be making a rethoric question out loud for the viewers' sake.

She could, but why would this one scene be thrown in like that? What are we as viewers gaining from it, if Anthy herself knows the answer; one which is revealed at the end of the same episode. It's already been established two episodes previous that Anthy has been abnormally tired, the only new information is the indication that Anthy herself doesn't know why.


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

Offline

 

#19 | Back to Top03-17-2007 12:19:16 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Long, long ago...

Ragnarok wrote:

Lightice wrote:

Alternatively, she could just be making a rethoric question out loud for the viewers' sake.

She could, but why would this one scene be thrown in like that? What are we as viewers gaining from it, if Anthy herself knows the answer; one which is revealed at the end of the same episode. It's already been established two episodes previous that Anthy has been abnormally tired, the only new information is the indication that Anthy herself doesn't know why.

Just to throw this in, she does something similar in episode 7, when she does the 'rabbit dance'. The two events are very similar. I would think the two should be interpreted the same way, whether that's because she honestly got accidentally 'caught by the camera' doing something coincidentally creepy and that she again got caught by the camera feeling sleepy and wondering why, or that she's shown doing something relevant to what's going on, perhaps expressing sarcastic, deadpan amusement at the events, perhaps simply mirroring them as a way to keep herself focused on her deception, or any other explanation that can fit the facts.


Hat Mafia Member: Ratchedface
Je vais mourir pour l ' a e s t h e t i q u e
Internet Atrocity Tourist             -           MY POSTS             ARE WARSHIPS

Offline

 

#20 | Back to Top03-30-2007 02:15:46 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Offline

 

#21 | Back to Top03-30-2007 03:17:19 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Long, long ago...

Well, as long as we are doing Wikipedia citations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertold_br … of_theatre
Namely alienation effect.

Offline

 

#22 | Back to Top03-31-2007 12:35:39 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Long, long ago...

Those are all applicable explanations, but they still leave the question of whether Anthy would do those things without the camera on her. I don't think it's impossible for Anthy to have her own purposes for those actions, even as the direction of the show uses those actions to counterpoint events that go on in the storyline.


Hat Mafia Member: Ratchedface
Je vais mourir pour l ' a e s t h e t i q u e
Internet Atrocity Tourist             -           MY POSTS             ARE WARSHIPS

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB 1.2.23
© Copyright 2002–2008 PunBB
Forum styled and maintained by Giovanna and Yasha
Return to Empty Movement