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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top03-14-2007 12:12:07 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Gossiping duelists

I lost track of which thread this was being debated on but there was a discussion about whether Utena knew about Juri's locket or her obsession with Shiori. Here's indirect evidence that she did:

- Early on Utena told Touga about Miki's comment about sisters with big-brother complexes.

- At about the same time Utena learns from Touga that he knows about her Prince, probably from Juri.

It's circumstatial but this implies that everybody mostly knew everything about everyone, if not all their secrets then most of each other's foibles and neuroses. They are a bit like the Peanuts gang with swords.

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#2 | Back to Top03-14-2007 12:47:23 PM

Ragnarok
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Re: Gossiping duelists

That would be this thread. Rather far into the discussion.

I'm not sure I follow the logic you're using here.

Nanami's obsession with Touga isn't a secret, so Miki telling Utena about it or Utena talking to Touga about it isn't especially profound.

Juri does tell Touga about Utena's prince, which Touga then uses in his elaborate plot to win his duel.

Episode 9 wrote:

Juri:  She said she came to the academy to see a prince she met when she was very young.
Touga:  She's quite the romantic.
Touga:  A prince, eh?
Touga:  I see.

Utena isn't thrilled about Touga knowing this, but if she didn't want anyone to know, she wouldn't have told Juri in the first place.

Also Episode 9 wrote:

Touga:  That castle is the place where you and your prince are supposed to meet someday.
Utena:  Somebody told you something they shouldn't have, huh?
Touga:  Wasn't your prince a guy like me?
Utena:  Stop it!

Episode 7 wrote:

Juri:  Why are you always dressed like a boy?
Utena:  Well, how should I put it...
Utena:  To tell the truth, I'm influenced by my prince.
Juri:  Prince?
Utena:  When I was a little kid, I met a prince.

Whereas Shiori's picture in Juri's locket is a secret. Not the best kept of secrets, as Ruka figures it out and Touga implies he knows (though it's like him to pretend he does while failing to actually.)

Neither of your examples deal with secrets one member of the council might wish to keep from the others. However, Utena isn't in the Student Council in the first place; so even if it was common knowledge among Akio's elite, she'd still be in the dark about it. Utena gets some information on things from Miki (about the gondola for example) and she picks up the gist of the dueling games from contact with the rest (such as Juri talking about why the Rose Bride is important.) That hardly makes her privy to every detail of the other duelist's lives.

I apologize for deconstructing things like this, I just don't see the connection between Miki telling Utena something obvious, Juri telling Touga something semi-secret and anyone telling everyone everything.


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#3 | Back to Top03-14-2007 01:57:33 PM

Mai_Kanzaki
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From: Left of Nowhere, Ohio
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Re: Gossiping duelists

Um does the next episode commentary count? Because Utena makes a comment on one of them that there's a rumor that Juri loves Shiori going around.
Also Touga seems to know about the other duelists dirty little secrets. He's pretty good at making enigmatic statements about them. Saionji actually tells him about the exchange journal on screen.


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#4 | Back to Top03-14-2007 03:13:32 PM

Yasha
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From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: Gossiping duelists

Mai_Kanzaki wrote:

Um does the next episode commentary count? Because Utena makes a comment on one of them that there's a rumor that Juri loves Shiori going around.

I think we eventually decided in one of the threads that the next episode commentary doesn't count towards what they know in the show, since they say things in the commentary that don't carry over to their knowledge in the show. I can't pull up any evidence to back it up right now, though, so feel free to reopen the debate.

Mai_Kanzaki wrote:

Also Touga seems to know about the other duelists dirty little secrets. He's pretty good at making enigmatic statements about them. Saionji actually tells him about the exchange journal on screen.

Touga is probably the world's biggest gossip whore, I swear to god. I'll bet he knows a lot about everything that goes on in the school. That cell phone stapled to his ear isn't just for fun. Actually, his intelligence network isn't too bad, either-- if you're sleeping with half the girls in the school, you get all the pillow talk from them too. I think he'd make it a point to dig up dirt on the other duellists; even aside from the position he's in, and the manipulative sort of 'job' he has as Seitokaicho, he's the type of person who would enjoy having the dirt on everyone, just in case he needed to use it.


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#5 | Back to Top03-14-2007 05:04:16 PM

Ragnarok
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Re: Gossiping duelists

Yasha wrote:

Mai_Kanzaki wrote:

Um does the next episode commentary count? Because Utena makes a comment on one of them that there's a rumor that Juri loves Shiori going around.

I think we eventually decided in one of the threads that the next episode commentary doesn't count towards what they know in the show, since they say things in the commentary that don't carry over to their knowledge in the show. I can't pull up any evidence to back it up right now, though, so feel free to reopen the debate.

That's from the same thread too. emot-smile I didn't want to bring it up because I was already going overly long to start with. But one of the examples:

Episode 13 wrote:

Anthy:  Utena-sama, let me introduce my older brother to you.
Utena:  What? You have a brother?
Anthy:  My brother doesn't know that I'm the Rose Bride or about the Duelist's Code.
Anthy:  Please, Utena-sama, you must keep this a secret from him.
Anthy:  I don't want to burden him.
Utena:  But, suspicious people are after your brother's fiancee.
Utena:  Next time on Shoujo Kakumei Utena: The Boys of the Black Rose
Anthy:  The Absolute Destiny: Apocalypse.

Utena has no idea that 'suspicious people' are after Kanae in the following episode. She doesn't know anything about Mikage until much later and she never sees Mamiya. So even though nothing she said is untrue about the next episode, it is untrue that Utena has this knowledge. At the same time, Anthy tells the same lies here that she will tell Utena again in the episode proper.

Whether a viewer wants to take what's said in the previews to be canonical or not is, of course, up to them. But to do so requires extrapolated justification as to how it can exist within the context of the series itself, being that on its own it clearly breaks the fourth wall. Picking and choosing certain excerpts as being facts at any given time would be dangerous.

Yasha wrote:

Touga is probably the world's biggest gossip whore, I swear to god. I'll bet he knows a lot about everything that goes on in the school. That cell phone stapled to his ear isn't just for fun. Actually, his intelligence network isn't too bad, either-- if you're sleeping with half the girls in the school, you get all the pillow talk from them too. I think he'd make it a point to dig up dirt on the other duellists; even aside from the position he's in, and the manipulative sort of 'job' he has as Seitokaicho, he's the type of person who would enjoy having the dirt on everyone, just in case he needed to use it.

I agree, in fact I think Touga enjoys having dirt on people even if he never needs to use it. That said, it's also in his character to intimate he has more knowledge than he actually does. Hence why he makes enigmatic statements instead of obvious ones, so that he doesn't get tripped up in details. He knows Juri has a secret; that she wants the power to revolutionize the world to make a hidden desire come true. Yet there's no indication he is aware of what the secret actually is. That probably doesn't matter to him, since all he has to do is elude to knowing in order to have the same effect.


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#6 | Back to Top03-15-2007 12:31:17 AM

ShatteredMirror
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From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Gossiping duelists

Ragnarok wrote:

I agree, in fact I think Touga enjoys having dirt on people even if he never needs to use it. That said, it's also in his character to intimate he has more knowledge than he actually does. Hence why he makes enigmatic statements instead of obvious ones, so that he doesn't get tripped up in details. He knows Juri has a secret; that she wants the power to revolutionize the world to make a hidden desire come true. Yet there's no indication he is aware of what the secret actually is. That probably doesn't matter to him, since all he has to do is elude to knowing in order to have the same effect.

That's an excellent way to describe Touga. He knows enough to know that he doesn't actually have to be aware of everything going on, just enough to imply that he knows everything else.

brian wrote:

They are a bit like the Peanuts gang with swords.

This made me laugh. Even though I can't stand Peanuts, it's a pretty good comparison I think.


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#7 | Back to Top03-15-2007 01:55:00 AM

Yasha
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From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: Gossiping duelists

Ragnarok wrote:

I agree, in fact I think Touga enjoys having dirt on people even if he never needs to use it. That said, it's also in his character to intimate he has more knowledge than he actually does. Hence why he makes enigmatic statements instead of obvious ones, so that he doesn't get tripped up in details. He knows Juri has a secret; that she wants the power to revolutionize the world to make a hidden desire come true. Yet there's no indication he is aware of what the secret actually is. That probably doesn't matter to him, since all he has to do is elude to knowing in order to have the same effect.

Oh yeah, definitely. I bet he'd have a girly little hissy fit if his allusion was wrong, though. Somewhere private so that no one saw him do it.

Kidding, kidding, but for me that's a disturbingly real mental picture. The guy's got balls to pull off that sort of thing, though. Goodness knows I would never want to get caught out not knowing something I said I knew. It's true that you don't have to know all of the details to know what's going on inside someone's head. People can be disturbingly predictable. If I saw someone clutching a locket and looking grim, I'd take note of it, and if it happened more than once, I'd know there was something important there. Furthermore, if the person clutching the locket never mentioned it or showed that they wore it, I would know it was a secret thing. That's really all it would take for me to figure out that I needed to know more about the locket; Touga might have just seen Juri a couple of times and ran with what he had.


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#8 | Back to Top03-15-2007 12:57:22 PM

brian
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Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Gossiping duelists

Touga, Saoinji, and Nanami go back a long ways together. Could Juri and Shiori have been old friends from way back. It's a possibility, especially since Ruka and Touga seem to know each other directly and not just through Juri.

Last edited by brian (03-15-2007 12:57:56 PM)

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#9 | Back to Top03-15-2007 01:08:07 PM

MissMocha
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From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: Gossiping duelists

Well, Shiori said that she and Juri grew up together, so one would assume they go a ways back.


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#10 | Back to Top03-15-2007 04:10:25 PM

Raven Nightshade
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From: Louisiana
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Posts: 2916

Re: Gossiping duelists

brian wrote:

Touga, Saoinji, and Nanami go back a long ways together. Could Juri and Shiori have been old friends from way back. It's a possibility, especially since Ruka and Touga seem to know each other directly and not just through Juri.

Well, Ruka is in 11th grade, just like Touga and Saionji. Also, I still maintain the theory that he was (at the very least) a former Student Council member.


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#11 | Back to Top03-15-2007 08:15:57 PM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
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Re: Gossiping duelists

Yasha wrote:

The guy's got balls to pull off that sort of thing, though.

Nevermind the assumptions he makes about Juri, his whole prank in the end of the Student Council Arc ran on impressively little information for how effective it was. But then at that point, Touga was calculating for 'girl', and succeeded for a short time because Utena still fell in places into that set of assumptions he carries.

Is this the symbolic relevance of him throwing knives while he discusses Juri's problem in the Student Council meeting? Throwing a knife is a lot like reading people on small pieces of information. There's a calculation involved, but most people don't actually do the math to make a successful throw. They learn how to just do it, and the process of thought because almost indiscernible from genuine intuition. Touga's throwing knives at the board while analyzing, out loud, Juri's position, and even when blindfolded, he doesn't miss, just as even with very little information to draw from, he has Juri's number down.

Then there's Juri on the gossip front. She seems to be herself keenly aware of what goes on in the school. Kozue comments on this. Obviously, her sources are different, or drawn from differently, than Touga's, although there are benefits and drawbacks to both methods. I get the impression Juri does very little with very much information, where Touga gets a little information and draws a lot from it.

Saionji knows the least and understands the most. Miki knows his homework and he knows your homework, but seems to know little beyond what he learns from Juri, and even with that information, wouldn't know what to do with it.


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#12 | Back to Top03-15-2007 09:13:13 PM

Mai_Kanzaki
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From: Left of Nowhere, Ohio
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Re: Gossiping duelists

Giovanna wrote:

Then there's Juri on the gossip front. She seems to be herself keenly aware of what goes on in the school. Kozue comments on this. Obviously, her sources are different, or drawn from differently, than Touga's, although there are benefits and drawbacks to both methods. I get the impression Juri does very little with very much information, where Touga gets a little information and draws a lot from it.

Dunno what about that one teacher leaving? She might have had a greater hand in it then "looking at him funny."school-sherlock


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#13 | Back to Top03-15-2007 09:54:16 PM

ShatteredMirror
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Re: Gossiping duelists

Dammit Giovanna why are you so damn good at saying what I'm trying to say but can't? emot-biggrin


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#14 | Back to Top03-15-2007 10:50:36 PM

Romanticide
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Registered: 10-18-2006
Posts: 447

Re: Gossiping duelists

Giovanna wrote:

Miki knows his homework and he knows your homework, but seems to know little beyond what he learns from Juri, and even with that information, wouldn't know what to do with it.

I have always said is not the same being intelligent and/or litterate and being smart.


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#15 | Back to Top03-15-2007 11:06:18 PM

ShatteredMirror
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From: Sacramento, CA
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Re: Gossiping duelists

Romanticide wrote:

I have always said is not the same being intelligent and/or litterate and being smart.

Very true. I'm very good in school when I pay attention but I can't read people at all.


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#16 | Back to Top03-16-2007 12:26:32 AM

Nilamarthiel
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Re: Gossiping duelists

I know I have the capacity to do better in school, I am smart, I won't lie... But I have some concentration problems, especially with teachers who are monotonous (MR. HINKLE AUGHAUGHAUGH) and/or don't know what they're talking about. As for reading people, I'm hideously good at that. It scares me sometimes.

But with gossip and things of that nature, I simply have nothing to do with the information. Seriously, who would I tell? I am very close to the bottom of the school's "food chain," as it were, and nothing I say or do is taken seriously. Also, I don't know how I'd go about using that information even if I was taken seriously. I simply don't have that drive.

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#17 | Back to Top03-23-2007 03:01:10 PM

rhyaniwyn
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From: Tallahassee, FL
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Re: Gossiping duelists

Well, that was the conclusion drawn, and I agreed to play by the rules, but I never agreed that episode commentary didn't count. :)  Things said there mean something to me, but it's so inconclusive that I recognize it's not good evidence for using in our conversations.

Because I assume (and it is an assumption) that anything Utena says in the Next-Episode bits she *will learn* in the next episode and know after that.  But I know it's impossible prove that assumption and that's likely it's not really her talking "in-character."

I still think that Utena has to be aware that Juri "has a crush on" Shiori by Episode 37, after all the duels and particularly the whole thing with Ruka.  The episode commentary is just interesting.

Juri:  Thinking back, despite being a member of the Student Council, I was thinking only of myself.
Juri:  And it's pathetic, but I've got my hands full with my own problems even now.
Utena:  Are you talking about Shiori-san?
Juri:  Why is it?
Juri:  Why can't I have any control over my own feelings?
Juri:  What will you do about Anthy?
Utena:  What?
Juri:  You love her, right?
Utena:  Well...it's not like your "love".
Utena:  Mine is pure, and...well, I guess yours is pure too, but...
Utena:  But I can't...Himemiya...
Utena:  any longer...

Miki:  Hey, Tenjou-senpai.
Utena:  What?
Miki:  I've been really worried about you lately.
Juri:  Well well, is that a confession?
Utena:  Miki loves Himemiya, right?
Miki:  Can't I switch over to you?
Utena:  I'll think about it.
Juri:  Could I have a picture of you too?
Utena:  What for?
Juri:  I was thinking of putting in the new pendant I just bought.
Miki:  Oh man, a strong rival just appeared.
Nanami:  What are you, idiots?

That whole bit of dialog equalizes Miki's statement that he might "switch" his crush from Himemiya to Utena with Juri's request for Utena's picture, since Juri is joking that she also might "switch" her crush from Shiori to Utena.  Utena laughs, and I can't imagine why she would without understanding the meaning behind that statement.  I don't think it's funny, otherwise.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (03-23-2007 03:02:49 PM)


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#18 | Back to Top03-23-2007 09:21:46 PM

Ragnarok
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Re: Gossiping duelists

rhyaniwyn wrote:

That whole bit of dialog equalizes Miki's statement that he might "switch" his crush from Himemiya to Utena with Juri's request for Utena's picture, since Juri is joking that she also might "switch" her crush from Shiori to Utena.  Utena laughs, and I can't imagine why she would without understanding the meaning behind that statement.  I don't think it's funny, otherwise.

While I agree that Utena understands the meaning of Juri's locket, there's no conclusive indication she knew whose picture was in the locket. Just because there's a connection (between the first part of that conversation concerning Shiori and the later bit about the locket,) doesn't mean that Utena herself sees it. Not that I wish to reopen the debate, I'm just restating my earlier observations.


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